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All well said, Harte, but may I correct you on one small item..

Steve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Re: And may I suggest that the 'story' might be a little more accurately reported if, instead of restating claims as if they actually happened, you make it clear they are claims.

I'm 100% with you on this much, at least.

I'm glad you agree, because they were my words, not Steve's - he didn't quote them correctly. A delightful touch of irony..! :D

It just goes to show that correct quoting and attribution, just like getting someone's name right, requires a lot more attention to detail than Steve seems willing to put in...

BTW, whether or not he returns, I will try to find time to come back later and show in some detail just how horribly flawed that map 'analysis' is.

In summary we have:

- a couple of anecdotal stories that didn't match from the start, and changed over time.

- 'verification' of one of those changed stories from a questionable source using discredited and inapplicable technology (the polygraph) *after* another discredited technique was used (regression hypnosis) and after many, many years had passed

- a 'map' that does not match up to anything recognisable, despite the ability to use the entire sky and 3d viewing angles from any direction, and that supporters concede is unlikely to be accurate anyway

- no other supporting evidence

If I can paraphrase/analogise...

Your honour, given that there is:

- no crime 'victim'

- no other credible witnesses

- no evidence of an actual crime, let alone a felony

- the map proffered to this court does not accurately represent an actual location, let alone a location at which the non-existent crime or felony might have taken place

...I would respectfully suggest that this be thrown out of court and my clients - the real aliens residing at Zeta Reticulum - be allowed to continue living on their planet as they have done for millenia, never bothering anyone and never coming remotely near Earth...

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All well said, Harte, but may I correct you on one small item..

I'm glad you agree, because they were my words, not Steve's - he didn't quote them correctly. A delightful touch of irony..! :D

It just goes to show that correct quoting and attribution, just like getting someone's name right, requires a lot more attention to detail than Steve seems willing to put in...

Damn! My bad.

That's what I get for trying to give him at least some credit!

BTW, whether or not he returns, I will try to find time to come back later and show in some detail just how horribly flawed that map 'analysis' is.

Sure, but don't do it for my sake, as I haven't gotten past Betty's Jimmy Durante gaffe. No need to go past that little factoid in any case.

Harte

Edited by Harte

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<snip>

In summary we have:

- a couple of anecdotal stories that didn't match from the start, and changed over time.

- 'verification' of one of those changed stories from a questionable source using discredited and inapplicable technology (the polygraph) *after* another discredited technique was used (regression hypnosis) and after many, many years had passed

- a 'map' that does not match up to anything recognisable, despite the ability to use the entire sky and 3d viewing angles from any direction, and that supporters concede is unlikely to be accurate anyway

- no other supporting evidence

<snip>

Pretty much sums it up! I have no idea why people keep peddling this imaginary tale as it was gospel.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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Badeskov:

Here you are making two huge assumptions, assumptions that cannot be validated in any way, shape or form:

Frankly, I believe in neither and I have not seen any compelling arguments to persuade me that I am wrong. But since Chrlzs has already put out some good arguments*, I will focus on the star map.

These are false assumptions on your part--- because you have no real depth of knowledge pertaining to their case.

*(I get to his this weekend)

1. That Barney and Betty Hill were actually abducted

I realize that you want to challenge the abduction of Betty and Barney Hill-and it seems that your line of questioning is more due to the fact that you’re less familiar with their case. The UFO phenomenon has thousands of cases and their case is only one. Project Blue Book rejected everything they touched-and you should consider reading Dr. J. Allen Hynek’s book-The UFO Experience-A Scientific Inquiry and his comments about their case first before you offer your opinions about their case. If you had already read John Fuller’s book-The Interrupted Journey or Captured someone might be more willing to accept your views-but since it’s obvious that you haven’t-your arguments don’t carry a lot of weight.

Why does the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) redact page after page when they are forced to release UFO documents? –You know the blacked out pages that say--/////////////…… Ever heard of the French COMITA Report?

There are many UFO trace evidence cases that have been documented by Ted Phillips.

While you want to claim that there isn’t any supporting evidence to their abduction—there is

From there abduction experience

Physical evidence of their abduction: (recent e-mail)

Hi Kathy,

I have a question regarding the 12-18 spots on the trunk-did they ever take pictures of them?

They also report that they could feel these buzzing sounds in their auto. (shiny spots on trunk) there were 12-18 mysterious shiny half dollar sized spots on the trunk of their car, with very strange bizarre magnetic properties that spun around a compass like crazy.

Thanks,

Steve

Response

Betty discovered highly polished concentric circles on the trunk of her car that hadn’t been there the previous day. They were in the exact location where the Hills had heard buzzing sounds striking their trunk after the UFO shifted above their vehicle. I observed them only two days after the Hill’s close encounter. My childhood neighbor, a physicist, had advised Betty to take a compass to her car to determine whether or not it would react in an unusual way, not just fluctuate over the metal surface or in proximity to the battery. Betty discovered the circular marks and placed the compass over them, which caused the needle to whirl. Barney confirmed Betty’s finding when he experimented with the compass. But time and time again, debunkers state that Barney did not observe anything unusual. Their trick was to quote a statement of denial that Barney made to Betty because he was irritated with her at that moment. He wanted to forget “the whole thing” and was being disagreeable for that reason. The fact is that he told Dr. Benjamin Simon, “I put the compass close to it (the spots), and the compass would spin and spin, and I could move the compass as few inches to a spot on trunk that did not have a spot and the compass would drop down, and I could not understand this.”

Somehow it didn't cross our minds to photograph them. None of us took many pictures in those days. I spoke to Walt Webb about this and he might have forgotten to look at them, or if he did, he only glanced at them. But I am one of several witnesses who saw them. The Matthew Reed abduction case that was investigated by MUFON's Star Team showed a high magnetic field reading on the trunk of his car.

There is nothing known to this day to describe or to reproduce this strange anomaly. It remains a mystery-and the only explanation is that they were trying to disable their car with possible magnetic beam that shook their car on impact.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Physical Evidence: The tips of Barney’s shoes were scuffed up-he was dragged to their landed spacecraft. This is not an assumption-(Report Pease AFB). The tips of his shoes would never be scuffed up while driving home.This is physical evidence from their case.

Physical Evidence: Betty’s dress

In their book Captured there is a chapter on the topic of the dress that she wore on the evening that they returned home. They discovered that an unknown pink powdery substance on her dress. It was also torn. She didn’t rip her own dress. The dress was put through chemical analysis and the powder substance found on her dress was determined to be strange in relation to its inorganic elemental content. It appeared to be high in undetermined organic hydrocarbons. The Lab test was conducted at Dubois Chemicals.

Physical evidence: infection and removal of 21 warts from an apparatus used on Barney Hill. (Page-122 Captured!) Barney Hill later developed a strange circular pattern of wart like growths on this abdomen-from some unknown device they used on him. Their lab equipment wasn’t sterile. They were large ¾ inch warts-that became inflamed and had to be surgically removed by a medical physician. This is more of an aftermath event that is not normally known—but it is physical evidence of exposure to an unknown bacterial source as a result of his medical examination by non-human creatures.

Radar Images and paper trail:

They also obtained radar documentation of an unknown craft leaving the same area at around at 2:14 AM. The best information on their case is John Fuller’s The Interrupted Journey, and Marden and Friedman’s book Captured. I understand your personal doubts that it couldn’t have taken place-but highly respected people have already been down this road-as Walter Webb and others, so my own opinion is that you lack sufficient detail of their case to render any worthwhile position.

There are numerous accounts of sightings that have taken place around the world that involve the “Greys” and the Wilson’s story is just one of them. I came across his story-an encounter with an anecdotal story-See article and my web site. The question posed is obvious-Is this real or is it fake-Is there really a triangle near the Big Dipper or not? To validate I used two things an interactive virtual telescope that uses Hubble images (My Sky) and Norton’s Star Atlas (Map 9 and 11). I realize that this doesn’t mean anything to you-but it does to thousands of people into astronomy. This is empirical evidence by observation, and information is based upon actual research and talking to eyewitnesses and listening to tapes of their hypnosis sessions with Dr. Simon.

See attached article: Hypnosis and Memory

This might help explain her vivid recall and ability to recall the images of the star map. It was unusually accurate due to the post hypnotic suggestion given to her by Dr. Benjamin Simon. She was instructed to draw the star map, the star map was 3-D. We have stereoscopic vision and can sense depth. Nobody told her to draw her star map three dimensionally. She was simply drawing it on a 8 x 11 piece of paper. It was freehand and she wasn’t a skilled artistian-so your complaint is baseless. Does the average person normally draw things 3-d?

Hypnosis And Memory Click here: Hypnosis And Memory

Hypnotic hypernesia is the unusually vivid and complete recall of information from memory while under hypnosis. The present article reviews the extensive literature on the subject and the longstanding controversy as to whether hypnosis can enhance memory at all.

One fact does seem clear, hypnosis does not help subjects recall nonsense data or information without meaning, such as random numbers and words. When it comes to meaningful phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc., hypnosis does aid recall to some extent. If the words evoke considerable imagery, as poetry often does, hypnosis seems to help recall even more. Finally, the recall of meaningful visual images and connected series of images is helped most of all by hypnosis. In fact, there is some evidence that eidetic imagery, that vivid, near-total recall of images, which is almost exclusively a talent of childhood, can be recovered by mature subjects under hypnosis. There do not seem to be any theories that explain all these effects of hypnosis on memory.

(Relinger, Helmut; "Hypnotic Hypernesia," American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis, 26:212, 1984.)

2. If they were abducted, that the star map is a correct representation of what Betty saw.

Many years ago Carl Sagan said that “The argument rests on how well the maps agree and the significance of the comparison.”

There is a very strong correlation to actual stars as observed from Earth and 20 Leo Minor is the Hub star of the star map.

As you are aware—this case also involves the Wilson’s-who are an experiencer couple who have been unwillingly involved in this since early childhood. The information discovered through the Wilson’s account 32 years later was direct contact with the Greys-the same species that abducted Betty and Barney Hill on September 19-20th 1961. The Wilson’s case took place in July 1993 in Portland, Oregon. If this wasn’t true-how do you explain the discovery of the triangle? There are 88 constellations—but we need to pay attention to only ONE! Erik Wilson’s unique conversation is the key that opens the door to decipher Betty Hill’s star map. They volunteered critical new information that a triangle close to the Big Dipper would help locate their star, and now YOU have seen it too. Please by all means look up the three stars on SIMBAD and plot them out on some grid paper.

The triangle was found because it was investigated, then validated by direct observation, and later confirmed by using SIMBAD. The acid test was to validate the existence of a high quality spectral type G star directly to the right of the triangle as drawn by Betty Hill. This flushes Charles's randomness theory. This was a day one-a beginning event that would lead to the others as it came together. Like a puzzle it came together piece by piece.

Betty passed a polygraph*.

Betty Hill passed a polygraph administered by F. Lee Bailey (Yes-he was an expert and still is)

And now is back practicing law.

In some countries polygraphs are used as an interrogation tool with criminal suspects or candidates for sensitive public or private sector employment. US law enforcement and federal government agencies such as the FBI and the CIA and many police departments such as the LAPD use polygraph examinations to interrogate suspects and screen new employees. Within the US federal government, a polygraph examination is also referred to as a psychophysiological detection of deception (PDD) examination.

http://www.advancedpolygraph.com.au/faq.htm#Q9

How accurate is the polygraph test? (Australia FAQ)

Recent research reveals that the accuracy of the new computerised polygraph system is close to 100 percent. In the past 75 years, over 250 studies have been conducted on the validity, accuracy and reliability of polygraph testing (American Polygraph Association 1996 Polygraph Issues & Answers). Based on twelve separate studies involving 2174 real cases since 1980, evidence suggests that qualified polygraph examiners are 98 percent accurate in their overall decisions (Norman Ansley, "The validity and reliability of polygraph decisions in real cases", Polygraph, v.19, 1990). Research clearly indicates that when administered by a competent polygraph examiner, the polygraph test is one of the most accurate means available to determine deceptive and non-deceptive (truthful) responses. Continued research and development is ongoing by Advanced Polygraph in the field of Forensic Psychophysiology to ensure we remain a leading agency in accurately identifying the correct outcomes of a polygraph examination.

By all means of respect, but this makes no sense whatsoever. It merely illustrates that you actually don't really know what you are talking about. She drew a number of stars and you immediately jump onto that it was a correct representation. A correct representation of what exactly, I would ask.

Like I said plot it out or buy Norton's Star Atlas on line

The 12 primary stars (6 trade and 6 exploration stars)-all F-G stars) plus the other background stars shown on the star map.

Suggest you buy a copy of Norton’s Star Atlas and look at Map 9

1. What are the "error bars" in her representation, i.e. how accurately was her representation?

She drew the star map from memory and one alignment problem is the placement of position #8 to its actual star chart position in reality-it’s actual position is above the triangle on the right not left and only 30 minutes off on its Right Ascension. However the RA and Declination of these three stars are dead on. You can judge the directional orientation and yourself to see that its a very good match –with 6 CVn at the top.

2. Where was that map seen from? I.e., seen from Earth (as Majorie Fish assumed), seen from somewhere else?

FYI: Fish never said it was Earth!

Inside the craft and a good vantage point to view the star map is from North America-you can even use the spot that they were abducted at—on the gravel road- off the highway 3 in New Hampshire. Fish said her map was observed from an unknown ‘slice of space” that has never been identified.

3. What was the rotation of said map and what was missing from it?

It displayed the Northern Hemisphere and it was a 3-d image created on the spot to answer her impromptu question: Where do you come from?

Frankly, assuming something like that is authentic is, at best, incredibly naive. But lets look more, here is a look from Earth towards the sky. Please do elaborate on how you cannot fit anything you like and draw any star map you could possibly dream up and make it fit somewhere in the night sky, especially when you have all the freedom you want in scaling and error ranges.

Try using specific Right Ascension and Declination for all of the positions as I have done. Plot it out…

What we have to work with is what she was shown

Charles point that it’s not admissible in court is irrelevant because she wasn’t charged with any crime-and it was just a TV program that Bailey was doing. He also forgot to mention is use in Australia!

One example of the night sky picture:

Your picture is non descript and both of you could claim it’s the night sky where you live-so it’s meaningless. My point is that Erik Wilson, an abductee had a highly unusual one on one conversation with a Grey-who directed his attention to the Big Dipper as a specific point of reference-then mentioned that a “triangle” was on the left, and a triangle was discovered as a result below the Big Dipper. Want provide just one name of a star and its RA and Dec shown in your picture?

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See Rogue Scholar entry...June 24th.

On the plus side, if this is all the map these aliens have made, they can't be exceptionally more technically advanced then us. Maybe only a couple hundred years.

P.S. The estimated age of the universe is 13.7 Billion years, half of the stars are over 10 Billion years old, and its been discovered that planets are ubiquitous (numerous) throughout the cosmos. Dan Wirtheimer at SETI believes that the age of first contact with an alien civilization will be at least billion years. Millions of years is more likely...

Hello Mr Steve3951,

I'm the only person that I know uses the title Rogue Scholar, so I'm assuming you mean me. Plus, I recognize that I wrote that line. And... I don't see that anything you posted shows it not to be true. What exactly about a map, that has a handful of lines and stars, makes a civilization so far ahead of us? Basically if we (Humans) could travel faster, we'd be able to make that map in short order. If we assume that the ETs have FTL (Faster Then Light starship drives), then surely humans will develop FTL also. And at the rate of scientific advancement, and the rate of processing power advancement, and the rate of high energy physics development, I don't see that point being too far out. Even 100 years would be a long time to develop FTL in such a case.

Thus, my assumption that the ETs are not too terribly technically advanced then us is a very reasonable suggestion.

All you have to do is assume:

1) ETs are real

2) FTL is possible.

3) Technology will continue to improve at an increasing rate.

4) An ET race with FTL would explore and have an extensive map.

5) In thousands or millions, or billions, or years an ET race would explore thousands or millions of worlds.

Thus a small map = very little exploration time.

Concerning the age of the universe and the galaxy and the plentifulness of planets.... I don't see how that would matter to a discussion of the technical abilities of an ET race based on their shown abilities and their supposed starmap. It definately could imply that the ETs should be VERY OLD, but it does not require it.

Edited by DieChecker

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Simple question:

Why did Betty and Barney Hill draw a picture of the craft, that abducted them, as if they viewed it from above?

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Steve Pearse, these ridiculous offtopic walls of text have revealed your approach admirably. I particularly liked the way you completely and utterly avoided the crucial point that a polygraph is absolutely USELESS if the person believes what they are saying.

Thanks for helping to make ufology the joke it now is.

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Charles--this was obviously in direct response to your own change the subject sidebar about the use of a poygraph test not being admissible in court. Your welcome to your believe that Betty and Barney Hill were never abducted--but Mate- I stick to my own that your opinions on their case doesn't carry a lot of weight-because far better people such as Walt Webb-a bonefide scientist and Astronomer were satisfied that what the were saying was true. Have you read Fuller's book-The Interrupted Journey or Hynek's book?-I ask because there is a eye-opening section in his book about their case.

I know that you want to use Carl Sagan's argument that the star map was just meaningless dots drawn on a piece of paper, but history shows that he was a hired gun of the Robertson Panel -hired to publically debunk UFOs.

Have you tried using the My Sky Interactive telescope yet ?

Thanks for helping to make skeptical comments about the UFO phenomenon the joke it now is.

Click here: Aim point RA: 12h 25m 50s Dec: +39°7'

Not bad for a meaningless random asterism directly below the Big Dipper

Click here: Australian newspaper poll shows most readers believe in aliens | Openminds.tv

Not to far way is it-did you see it?

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Mangoze

Re: Simple question: Why did Betty and Barney Hill draw a picture of the craft, that abducted them, as if they viewed it from above?

They did see it-- This was prior to their abduction on a side gravel road off Hwy 3

From Project Blue Book Report

This was prior to their abduction

D. Location and details: On the night of 19-20 September between 20/0001 and 20/0100 the observers were traveling by car in a southerly direction of Route 3 south of Lincoln, N.H. when they noticed a brightly lighted object ahead of their car at an angle of elevation of approximately 45° degree. It appeared strange to them because of its shape and the intensity of its lights compared to the stars in the sky. Weather and sky were clear.

They continued to observe the object from their moving car for a few minutes then stopped. After stopping the car they used binoculars at times. They report that the object was traveling north very fast. They also report it changed directions rather abruptly and then headed south.

Shortly thereafter it stopped and hovered in the air. There was no sound evident up to this point. While hovering, objects began to appear from the body of the "object" which they describe as looking like wings which made a V-shape when extended. The "wings" had red lights on the tips. At this point they observed it to appear to swoop down in the general direction of their auto. The object continued to descend until it appeared to be only a matter of "hundreds of feet" above their car. At this point they decided to get out of that area, and fast. Mr. Hill was driving and Mrs. Hill was prevented from observing its full departure by her position in the car.

They report that while the object was above them after it had "swooped down" they heard a series of short loud "buzzes" which they described as something like someone dropped a tuning fork. They report that they could feel these buzzing sounds in their auto. No further visual observations were made of this object.

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RE: I'm a Rogue Scholar

Yes and No--some could be several hundred years in advance-- while others could be millions of years in advance of our own. You might read some of Dr. Kaku's essays on this..

This is in reference to the Great Debate that was held at Berkley several years ago. It's on U-Tube.

Geoff Marcy is very skeptical and opinionated that the study of UFOs is a big waste of time. Marcy is a very strong supporter of the Ward and Brownlee Rare Earth Hypothesis (2002) and says that Werthimer’s efforts to tune into an alien signal will never succeed. The debate lacked balance, since their point of view was too narrow minded. According to Marcy the development of life on Earth is very rare, and that our Milky Way Galaxy has probably only produced 12 or less intelligent civilizations. He believes that the nearest alien civilization might be over 100+ light years away and probably 1000’s of light years away from us. Marcy says life in the Milky Way is an open question, and says that the Drake Formula is just theory, and the search for intelligent life must be framed in an intelligent manner; while Werthimer argues that the Rare Earth theory is extremely restrictive and unimaginative. According to Werthimer there are many paths for life to develop in that primordial soup of life.

Several years ago Geoff Marcy made a very interesting comment in the June/2005 issue of DISCOVER, saying the following: “The most important advance in astronomy in the last quarter century is the discovery that the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, powered by the most mysterious force ever detected-dark energy, which accelerates the fabric of space-time. The discovery of planets orbiting other stars is a close second.”

Note: Andrew Howard (ETA-Earth Survey) now says the Drake formula estimates on the number of ET civilization is bigger --since their discovery that most stars have planets. Even stars like TAU CETI have confirmed planets

Then he adds the following prediction:

“I’ll predict we discover in the next 25 years that no other advanced civilization resides within 100 light years of Earth, and if we do find a more distant intelligent species, the overwhelming challenge of interstellar travel will render us effectively isolated in the universe for millennia.”

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Thanks for helping to make ufology the joke it now is.

A real scientist Charles:

Physicist Bernard Haisch argues that he is convinced something is going on and that modern theories of physics and cosmology might support extraterrestrial or even inter dimensional origins for UFOs.* "Cut through the ridicule and search for factual information in most of the skeptical commentary and one is usually left with nothing. This is not surprising. After all, how can one rationally object to a call for scientific examination of evidence?"

Bloody Cheers Mate

*Bernhard Haisch, Ph.D., "Be Skeptical of the Skeptics"

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According to Marcy the development of life on Earth is very rare, and that our Milky Way Galaxy has probably only produced 12 or less intelligent civilizations. He believes that the nearest alien civilization might be over 100+ light years away and probably 1000’s of light years away from us. Marcy says life in the Milky Way is an open question, and says that the Drake Formula is just theory, and the search for intelligent life must be framed in an intelligent manner; while Werthimer argues that the Rare Earth theory is extremely restrictive and unimaginative. According to Werthimer there are many paths for life to develop in that primordial soup of life.

One thing I think is interesting is that one of the variables in the Drake Equation, fp, where fp = 0.2-0.5 (one fifth to one half of all stars formed will have planets), is an estimate that is quickly being re-evaluated. And if that is being re-evaluated, then maybe the percent of civilizations that create communication beyond their solar system, and the percentage of planets that might be in the Goldilocks Zone, both may need to be re-evaluated.

We could be looking at a Tremendous number of planets with life on them and civilizations of one order or another.

http://en.wikipedia..../Drake_equation

I think people who believe the Rare Earth, or Unique Earth, are really very unimaginative people.

Edited by DieChecker

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I have to say.. I had a good giggle reading this ..

Cheers for the laughs steve :D

I will check again next week when I need another chuckle..

Oh BTW Chrlzs now that I am living in Toowoomba .. we may have to catch up one day for a drink or two :)

and will see if the rest of Banana Bender's on here want to join in as well

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Rebuttal to the Skeptics who think that we are alone

To those of you who think that we are somehow special and that we are alone-you're sadly mistaken.

The Hill-Wilson star map is Earth based, and I use the respective Right Ascension and Declination coordinates of these stars to plot out their location as seen from Earth. We “Earthlings” here on Earth represent the location of the eyeball (vantage point to view to the star map.) We are one of the 12 stars of the 6 trade and 6 exploration stars and the most important.

The location of the triangle in Betty Hill’s star map was discovered to be below the Big Dipper, and its chance discovery was the result of taking a gamble by having an open mind and checking out an anecdotal story from 1993 and then taking the time to see if this information might pan. This discovery took place in December 2000. On their web site (www.alienjigsaw.com) this is what I read: (Posted for over 10 years)

In July of 1993, my husband Erik had an amazing alien encounter while we were living in Portland, Oregon. I was very careful to write down exactly what my husband said because an alien being specifically told him where he -or they–were from. Erik remembered his experience immediately - no hypnosis was used. Erik’s conversation with a Grey is as follows: "We go on the deck. I ask him, 'Are you from the Pleiades?' The Being adamantly replies, 'No.' I ask him where he is from. We look in the sky to see the Big Dipper. He says, 'See the Ursa Major?' I reply “Yes”. The Being then tells me, 'The star cluster to the right and below. The one with the triangle to the left and the little stars in between...we're from that one. “The fourth planet from our sun."

Based upon Erik's conversation with this Grey this is what I found:

Triangle Aim point RA: 12h 26m 32s Dec: +35°14'59"

This image is from the Hubble Space Telescope

All three stars were identified on this first day, and the most important thing to do next was to validate a worthwhile star directly to the right of the triangle. This was accomplished within several hours. That star was confirmed as 61 Ursa Major-31 light years from Earth.

Visual observation was the first validation test and now the second test is the declination (horizontal alignment) of Position #10 and #3 to the triangle from top to bottom in degrees. The Hill-Wilson star map was plotted out to Norton’s Star Atlas 19th Edition using pages 9 and 11. Positions #10-61 Ursa Major and #3-11 Leo Minor fall between the top and the bottom of the triangle. 61 UMa is lower and Leo Minor is higher exactly as shown in Betty Hill’s star map. Please note that the bottom left star in the triangle is higher and in real life it is too. Their home world is to the right of the triangle. They claim that they are just random meaningless stars is debunked. The triangle is a nearly perfect isosceles triangle and two confirmed spectral type G stars are confirmed to have the proper declination to be inside the range of the top to bottom declination coordinates of the triangle. These are not just random meaningless dots!

The star map ranges from 9 hour to 15 hour (Right Ascension) and with a declination from +63° 15’ 40.59” to a low +14° 03’23.411”. This excludes our position and perspective and the proper vantage point to view the things from our position. (Celestrial Sphere at 0,00,000) Right Ascension and Declination are the celestial equivalents of latitude and longitude. There are 88 constellations—but there is only one that has the Big Dipper (Ursa Majoris)

Horizontal Alignment of key features (Validation Test) using their declination coordinates

Star Identity Declination (from high to low)

Top of triangle: 6 CVn Dec: +39° 01' 07.0

Position #3: 11:LMi: Dec: +35° 48' 36.5" (spectral type G8-IV)

Position #10: 61 UMa: Dec:+34° 12' 5.888″ (spectral type G8 V)

Triangle bottom left: (HR4783) Dec: +33° 14' 51.3

Triangle bottom right: (HR4668) Dec: +33° 3' 41.5

Home world: 20 Leo Minor: RA: 10h 01m 00.65765s Dec: +31° 55' 25

Note: Betty gets A++ for showing that the bottom left is slightly higher than the right side on the triangle.

The triangle is 6 degree’s high

From the top (6 CVn): Dec: +39°

Low of bottom right (HR4668): Dec: +33°

Proof: See Red circle going around this star

http://www.astrostudio.org/xhip.php?hip=56997

(61 Ursa Major and the triangle that the naysayers could not exist-because they are just random meaningless dots that couldn’t represent any actual position—But now here it is.

Directional orientation of triangle

Please note the direction: Pointing vertically up-as compared to the hands of a clock (360) 5-10-15-20-25-30-35 etc etc.

#1: 20 Leo Minor (closer to Earth)

http://www.astrostudio.org/xhip.php?hip=49081

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#3-11 Leo Minor (closer to Earth)

http://www.astrostudio.org/xhip.php?hip=47080

Up and to the right of 20 Leo Minor #4 -36 UMa (Spectral type F)

http://www.astrostudio.org/xhip.php?hip=51459

Note: Above 20 Leo Minor at:

RA: 10h 30m 38.58s Dec +55 58’49.9”

Degrees above 20 Leo Minor: 24

Right Ascension: plus 30 Minutes (It slants to left with higher RA)

36 Ursa Major: RA: 10h 30m 38.58s

20 Leo Minor: RA: 10h 01m 00.65765s

This shows correct angle from home world to 36 UMa (F) 5 billion year old star equal to our Sun.

Next: The large mystery star that appears in the middle of the star map. Now we get to separate the Men from the boys, and either argument that UFOs and abductions are a joke. (The one that Marjorie fish erased) Above the star that is above and to the right of 61 Ursa Major. (See map in article)

Link http://www.astrostudio.org/xhip.php?hip=56997

Tip: Place the cursor on to the top of the triangle, then place the cursor on the star above 61 Ursa Major above and to the right (Psi Ursa Majoris is the old Greek name)-Click star to get info

Position #17: 52 Psi Ursa Major Right Ascension: 11h 9m 3939.8s Dec: + 44° 29’ 54.55”

Position #10: 61 Ursa Major Right Ascension: 11h 41m 03s Dec: +34° 12' 5.888

52 Ursa Major is 10 degrees above and 32 minutes to the right (RA) (I.E. Higher to the right. )

Matching pattern

Comparison of Declination: Significance of the comparison

20 Leo Minor, 36 Ursa Major (Position 4) and placement of 52 Ursa Major.

These three stars on Betty Hill’s star map show a very strong match to the star map by declination. See star map and position of large background star-now identified as 52 Psi Ursa Majoris. Very high correlation at +/- 1 degree.

36 Ursa Major: Dec +55° 58’49.9”

52 Psi Ursa Major: Dec: +44° 29’ 54.55”

20 Leo Minor: Dec: +31° 55' 25

From: 6 CVn top of triangle to 20 Leo Minor

RA: 12h 25m 50.93s <----------àRA: 10h 01m 00.65765s (20 Leo Minor)

(Proving that the triangle is on the left as shown on star map drawn by BH)

<-----------------------------------------2h 24m 50.92s---------------------------------------------------à*

The triangle is left of their home world as seen from Earth by 2h 24m 50.92s

End of part one defending the Hill-Wilson star map. Part two will continue to identify the stars of the Hill-Wilson star map.

Anybody seen Charlie or bade from CALLI-FORNIA-Don't forget to plot out all the positions of the Hill Wilson star map

Feel free to use SIMBAD

Steve Pearse

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Rebuttal to the Skeptics who think that we are alone

To those of you who think that we are somehow special and that we are alone-you're sadly mistaken.

oh I happen to agree.. those who think we are alone are sadly mistaken..

but those who think we have and are being visited.. well.. lets just say.. they are just as mistaken as those who think we are alone..

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DingoLingo

That was a very touching family photo-thanks for sharing: He ain't heavy he's my brother....

:tu:

Edited by Steve3951

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Part two: Hill-Wilson star Map

Position #5: GJ 146-60 (G5)

RA: 10h 43m 33.824s Dec: +48° 12’ 50.9”

Home world 20 Leo Minor

RA: 10h 01m 00.65765s Dec: +31° 55' 25″

RA of GJ 146-+60: plus 42 minutes RA and +16° 07’ Declination

Light year distance from 20 Leo Minor: 39.26 Ly

Position #6 GJ 3627 (G5)

RA 10h 50m 40.3s Dec: +51° 47’ 591’

Light year distance from #5: 12.78 Ly

RA separation: 8 minutes (rounded off)

Declination separation: 3° 35’

Comparison to actual: Sharper vertical climb to #6 from position #5

Position of 52 Psi Ursa Major to these two G5 stars

Position #17: 52 Psi Ursa Major

Right Ascension: 11h 9m 3939.8s Dec: + 44° 29’ 54.55”

Position #6: RA 10h 50m 40.3s Dec: +51° 47’ 591’

Position of 52 UMa: + 19m (rounded)

Light Year Distance from Earth

#5: 82.478 Ly

#6: 94.54 Ly

Distance between: 12.78 Ly

Comparison Tau Ceti to Earth: 11.9 Ly

#17: 146.7 Ly (background Star)*

*erased by Fish

The overall position of 52 UMa is correct to GJ 3627 (#6) at less than +20 minutes RA.

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DingoLingo

That was a very touching family photo-thanks for sharing: He ain't heavy he's my brother....

:tu:

heh sorry but your reference of satire is lost on me.. not sure I know that one..

which movie was it from?

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Sorry for my absence - personal life called, plus I've finally finished migrating to a new computer (eurgh..)

To DingoLingo - you're on - how's about we try to get a time together and meet up for a cider and a chat? If you don't mind traveling (or maybe can tie it in with some other trip in that direction..?) I reckon Psyche's Treetops (near Burleigh) is the place to go - that way if the conversation lapses there are some very nice artistic attractions to look at.. {cough} I reckon I've spotted at least one other 'bender on the forum.. I'll see if I can find them.. As for me, I'm usually pretty flexible, especially on weekends..

To Steve..

Seriously, could you try to keep your posts short and to the point? I'll be back to address in detail your strawmen and other logical fallacies and obvious attempts to divert attention from the point of the article, but in the meantime...

First, let me state this very clearly.

1. NO-ONE here, myself included, doubts that there is a significant likelihood of life existing elsewhere.

2. NO-ONE here said that on this thread.

3. The level of likelihood of alien life (which is currently COMPLETELY unknown and unknowable) has virtually NOTHING to do with your article.

So STOP handwaving that point around as if you hold any high ground. If you wish to argue it - QUOTE what you are arguing with...

Second, why do you keep making assertions about some claimed match in the drawn map and actual star locations when you REFUSE to SHOW the actual match and the actual mathematics/geometrical analysis used. If a genuine analysis was properly done, you would be able to show us the control examples of the technique being used - at least one with a positive result and one with a negative result.

Steve, I ask you to post both the methodology (maths, geometry and diagram/s showing the 'match'), and the control comparisons in your very next post.

If you do not or cannot, then I think it will be very clear that:

- no proper analysis has been done

- your knowledge of how REAL (unbiased) investigation is undertaken is not exactly up to scratch

No more handwaving and unsupported assertions. SHOW us the match in detail.

Also, please explain:

- why are you now deliberately ignoring all the other problems raised about your article and repeating the untrue mantra about skeptics denying the possibility of alien life?

- why are you now focusing on an alleged match between the map and star positions, when earlier you very clearly expressed your doubts about the map being of any worth?

Edited by Chrlzs

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So, let's start wading through the handwaving...

A real scientist Charles:

Yes, I am, but I suspect you weren't implying that.. Try to be a little clearer with your musings, and PLEASE learn to QUOTE.

Physicist Bernard Haisch argues that he is convinced something is going on
At this point, Steve, it might have been wise to elaborate on WHAT he thought was going on, and how that related to Betty..
and that modern theories of physics and cosmology might support extraterrestrial or even inter dimensional origins for UFOs.*

They might, but that is all hypothesis. Until there is evidence, it ain't accepted science, Steve. That's how science works.

"Cut through the ridicule and search for factual information in most of the skeptical commentary and one is usually left with nothing. This is not surprising.

How quaint - handwaving about someone else's handwave. In other words, not a shred of an example to back this up, you just repeat your mantra and try to attack skepticism.

The irony of that offtopic and irrelevant quote is that here I am, going through your posts one by one and actually pointing out what you are getting wrong. I'm going to particularly enjoy the irony as I begin to unravel your claims about this 'match' you are claiming. I would suggest that you get Googling and see if you can find out how you would PROPERLY determine if there was a match. I've given you some clues above, and I will be happily proceeding to show you as I get time... May I suggest you try to get in first, otherwise it will be a bit embarrassing, in light on your quote above.

After all, how can one rationally object to a call for scientific examination of evidence?"

Indeed. Which is what is about to happen in regard to your false claims about the alleged match. There is no match, unless you bend the rules to such an extent that almost anything will match anything else. And I'm going to show you exactly why I say that... Hint - remember what I was saying about giving control examples of matches from a random image, showing both a positive match versus a negative one? Think REALLY hard about that and give it try on your data, Steve, or ask those who claimed the match, to show their work in detail. If they are genuinely scientists with a clue, they will know all about things like controls and falsifiability and avoiding confirmation bias - perhaps you need to google some more terms and think about how they apply..

Bloody Cheers Mate

?? Is this meant to be funny, smarmy, or what? Maybe you need to watch Crocodile Dundee a few more times to get a grip on strine. (Google that, too..)

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- why are you now deliberately ignoring all the other problems raised about your article and repeating the untrue mantra about skeptics denying the possibility of alien life?

It's a song and dance. He's trying to outcompete Durante:

[media=]

[/media]

Harte

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Badeskov:

Here you are making two huge assumptions, assumptions that cannot be validated in any way, shape or form:

Frankly, I believe in neither and I have not seen any compelling arguments to persuade me that I am wrong. But since Chrlzs has already put out some good arguments*, I will focus on the star map.

These are false assumptions on your part--- because you have no real depth of knowledge pertaining to their case.

*(I get to his this weekend)

My apologies for the late response, work in the way. That said, I daresay, neither do you have that knowledge.

1. That Barney and Betty Hill were actually abducted

I realize that you want to challenge the abduction of Betty and Barney Hill-and it seems that your line of questioning is more due to the fact that you’re less familiar with their case. The UFO phenomenon has thousands of cases and their case is only one. Project Blue Book rejected everything they touched-and you should consider reading Dr. J. Allen Hynek’s book-The UFO Experience-A Scientific Inquiry and his comments about their case first before you offer your opinions about their case. If you had already read John Fuller’s book-The Interrupted Journey or Captured someone might be more willing to accept your views-but since it’s obvious that you haven’t-your arguments don’t carry a lot of weight.

Why does the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) redact page after page when they are forced to release UFO documents? –You know the blacked out pages that say--/////////////…… Ever heard of the French COMITA Report?

There are many UFO trace evidence cases that have been documented by Ted Phillips.

While you want to claim that there isn’t any supporting evidence to their abduction—there is

From there abduction experience

You, as in your previous posts, completely ignored the issues I had with this. You are lumping in a lot of other garbage to bolster your case without addressing the issues I originally raised.

Physical evidence of their abduction: (recent e-mail)

Hi Kathy,

I have a question regarding the 12-18 spots on the trunk-did they ever take pictures of them?

They also report that they could feel these buzzing sounds in their auto. (shiny spots on trunk) there were 12-18 mysterious shiny half dollar sized spots on the trunk of their car, with very strange bizarre magnetic properties that spun around a compass like crazy.

Thanks,

Steve

Response

Betty discovered highly polished concentric circles on the trunk of her car that hadn’t been there the previous day. They were in the exact location where the Hills had heard buzzing sounds striking their trunk after the UFO shifted above their vehicle. I observed them only two days after the Hill’s close encounter. My childhood neighbor, a physicist, had advised Betty to take a compass to her car to determine whether or not it would react in an unusual way, not just fluctuate over the metal surface or in proximity to the battery. Betty discovered the circular marks and placed the compass over them, which caused the needle to whirl. Barney confirmed Betty’s finding when he experimented with the compass. But time and time again, debunkers state that Barney did not observe anything unusual. Their trick was to quote a statement of denial that Barney made to Betty because he was irritated with her at that moment. He wanted to forget “the whole thing” and was being disagreeable for that reason. The fact is that he told Dr. Benjamin Simon, “I put the compass close to it (the spots), and the compass would spin and spin, and I could move the compass as few inches to a spot on trunk that did not have a spot and the compass would drop down, and I could not understand this.”

Somehow it didn't cross our minds to photograph them. None of us took many pictures in those days. I spoke to Walt Webb about this and he might have forgotten to look at them, or if he did, he only glanced at them. But I am one of several witnesses who saw them. The Matthew Reed abduction case that was investigated by MUFON's Star Team showed a high magnetic field reading on the trunk of his car.

There is nothing known to this day to describe or to reproduce this strange anomaly. It remains a mystery-and the only explanation is that they were trying to disable their car with possible magnetic beam that shook their car on impact.

And there is nothing to corroborate it either.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Physical Evidence: The tips of Barney’s shoes were scuffed up-he was dragged to their landed spacecraft. This is not an assumption-(Report Pease AFB). The tips of his shoes would never be scuffed up while driving home.This is physical evidence from their case.

Physical Evidence: Betty’s dress

In their book Captured there is a chapter on the topic of the dress that she wore on the evening that they returned home. They discovered that an unknown pink powdery substance on her dress. It was also torn. She didn’t rip her own dress. The dress was put through chemical analysis and the powder substance found on her dress was determined to be strange in relation to its inorganic elemental content. It appeared to be high in undetermined organic hydrocarbons. The Lab test was conducted at Dubois Chemicals.

Physical evidence: infection and removal of 21 warts from an apparatus used on Barney Hill. (Page-122 Captured!) Barney Hill later developed a strange circular pattern of wart like growths on this abdomen-from some unknown device they used on him. Their lab equipment wasn’t sterile. They were large ¾ inch warts-that became inflamed and had to be surgically removed by a medical physician. This is more of an aftermath event that is not normally known—but it is physical evidence of exposure to an unknown bacterial source as a result of his medical examination by non-human creatures.

Radar Images and paper trail:

They also obtained radar documentation of an unknown craft leaving the same area at around at 2:14 AM. The best information on their case is John Fuller’s The Interrupted Journey, and Marden and Friedman’s book Captured. I understand your personal doubts that it couldn’t have taken place-but highly respected people have already been down this road-as Walter Webb and others, so my own opinion is that you lack sufficient detail of their case to render any worthwhile position.

There are numerous accounts of sightings that have taken place around the world that involve the “Greys” and the Wilson’s story is just one of them. I came across his story-an encounter with an anecdotal story-See article and my web site. The question posed is obvious-Is this real or is it fake-Is there really a triangle near the Big Dipper or not? To validate I used two things an interactive virtual telescope that uses Hubble images (My Sky) and Norton’s Star Atlas (Map 9 and 11). I realize that this doesn’t mean anything to you-but it does to thousands of people into astronomy. This is empirical evidence by observation, and information is based upon actual research and talking to eyewitnesses and listening to tapes of their hypnosis sessions with Dr. Simon.

See attached article: Hypnosis and Memory

This might help explain her vivid recall and ability to recall the images of the star map. It was unusually accurate due to the post hypnotic suggestion given to her by Dr. Benjamin Simon. She was instructed to draw the star map, the star map was 3-D. We have stereoscopic vision and can sense depth. Nobody told her to draw her star map three dimensionally. She was simply drawing it on a 8 x 11 piece of paper. It was freehand and she wasn’t a skilled artistian-so your complaint is baseless. Does the average person normally draw things 3-d?

Hypnosis And Memory Click here: Hypnosis And Memory

Hypnotic hypernesia is the unusually vivid and complete recall of information from memory while under hypnosis. The present article reviews the extensive literature on the subject and the longstanding controversy as to whether hypnosis can enhance memory at all.

One fact does seem clear, hypnosis does not help subjects recall nonsense data or information without meaning, such as random numbers and words. When it comes to meaningful phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc., hypnosis does aid recall to some extent. If the words evoke considerable imagery, as poetry often does, hypnosis seems to help recall even more. Finally, the recall of meaningful visual images and connected series of images is helped most of all by hypnosis. In fact, there is some evidence that eidetic imagery, that vivid, near-total recall of images, which is almost exclusively a talent of childhood, can be recovered by mature subjects under hypnosis. There do not seem to be any theories that explain all these effects of hypnosis on memory.

(Relinger, Helmut; "Hypnotic Hypernesia," American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis, 26:212, 1984.)

2. If they were abducted, that the star map is a correct representation of what Betty saw.

Many years ago Carl Sagan said that “The argument rests on how well the maps agree and the significance of the comparison.”

There is a very strong correlation to actual stars as observed from Earth and 20 Leo Minor is the Hub star of the star map.

As you are aware—this case also involves the Wilson’s-who are an experiencer couple who have been unwillingly involved in this since early childhood. The information discovered through the Wilson’s account 32 years later was direct contact with the Greys-the same species that abducted Betty and Barney Hill on September 19-20th 1961. The Wilson’s case took place in July 1993 in Portland, Oregon. If this wasn’t true-how do you explain the discovery of the triangle? There are 88 constellations—but we need to pay attention to only ONE! Erik Wilson’s unique conversation is the key that opens the door to decipher Betty Hill’s star map. They volunteered critical new information that a triangle close to the Big Dipper would help locate their star, and now YOU have seen it too. Please by all means look up the three stars on SIMBAD and plot them out on some grid paper.

The triangle was found because it was investigated, then validated by direct observation, and later confirmed by using SIMBAD. The acid test was to validate the existence of a high quality spectral type G star directly to the right of the triangle as drawn by Betty Hill. This flushes Charles's randomness theory. This was a day one-a beginning event that would lead to the others as it came together. Like a puzzle it came together piece by piece.

Betty passed a polygraph*.

Betty Hill passed a polygraph administered by F. Lee Bailey (Yes-he was an expert and still is)

And now is back practicing law.

In some countries polygraphs are used as an interrogation tool with criminal suspects or candidates for sensitive public or private sector employment. US law enforcement and federal government agencies such as the FBI and the CIA and many police departments such as the LAPD use polygraph examinations to interrogate suspects and screen new employees. Within the US federal government, a polygraph examination is also referred to as a psychophysiological detection of deception (PDD) examination.

http://www.advancedp...m.au/faq.htm#Q9

How accurate is the polygraph test? (Australia FAQ)

Recent research reveals that the accuracy of the new computerised polygraph system is close to 100 percent. In the past 75 years, over 250 studies have been conducted on the validity, accuracy and reliability of polygraph testing (American Polygraph Association 1996 Polygraph Issues & Answers). Based on twelve separate studies involving 2174 real cases since 1980, evidence suggests that qualified polygraph examiners are 98 percent accurate in their overall decisions (Norman Ansley, "The validity and reliability of polygraph decisions in real cases", Polygraph, v.19, 1990). Research clearly indicates that when administered by a competent polygraph examiner, the polygraph test is one of the most accurate means available to determine deceptive and non-deceptive (truthful) responses. Continued research and development is ongoing by Advanced Polygraph in the field of Forensic Psychophysiology to ensure we remain a leading agency in accurately identifying the correct outcomes of a polygraph examination.

By all means of respect, but this makes no sense whatsoever. It merely illustrates that you actually don't really know what you are talking about. She drew a number of stars and you immediately jump onto that it was a correct representation. A correct representation of what exactly, I would ask.

Like I said plot it out or buy Norton's Star Atlas on line

The 12 primary stars (6 trade and 6 exploration stars)-all F-G stars) plus the other background stars shown on the star map.

Why is it that Barney only after hypnotic suggestion agreed to all of this? And you are aware that Betty was into the paranormal before her "abduction", right? Barney didn't think anything abnormal happened before after 6 weeks or so. Why is that?

Suggest you buy a copy of Norton’s Star Atlas and look at Map 9

1. What are the "error bars" in her representation, i.e. how accurately was her representation?

She drew the star map from memory and one alignment problem is the placement of position #8 to its actual star chart position in reality-it’s actual position is above the triangle on the right not left and only 30 minutes off on its Right Ascension. However the RA and Declination of these three stars are dead on. You can judge the directional orientation and yourself to see that its a very good match –with 6 CVn at the top.

They are dead on within whatever scale the observer decides to use. Anybody could find numerous similarities. The picture I posted shows an example.

2. Where was that map seen from? I.e., seen from Earth (as Majorie Fish assumed), seen from somewhere else?

FYI: Fish never said it was Earth!

So you have innumerable options.

Inside the craft and a good vantage point to view the star map is from North America-you can even use the spot that they were abducted at—on the gravel road- off the highway 3 in New Hampshire. Fish said her map was observed from an unknown ‘slice of space” that has never been identified.

Absolute nonsense.

3. What was the rotation of said map and what was missing from it?

It displayed the Northern Hemisphere and it was a 3-d image created on the spot to answer her impromptu question: Where do you come from?

Again, absolute nonsense. She drew the map from her memory without being told anything, You are making things up as you go.

Frankly, assuming something like that is authentic is, at best, incredibly naive. But lets look more, here is a look from Earth towards the sky. Please do elaborate on how you cannot fit anything you like and draw any star map you could possibly dream up and make it fit somewhere in the night sky, especially when you have all the freedom you want in scaling and error ranges.

Try using specific Right Ascension and Declination for all of the positions as I have done. Plot it out…

What we have to work with is what she was shown

For what? I can do that till the cows come home, but unless I have something that is actually reliable it makes no sense.

Charles point that it’s not admissible in court is irrelevant because she wasn’t charged with any crime-and it was just a TV program that Bailey was doing. He also forgot to mention is use in Australia!

I only care about science.

One example of the night sky picture:

Your picture is non descript and both of you could claim it’s the night sky where you live-so it’s meaningless. My point is that Erik Wilson, an abductee had a highly unusual one on one conversation with a Grey-who directed his attention to the Big Dipper as a specific point of reference-then mentioned that a “triangle” was on the left, and a triangle was discovered as a result below the Big Dipper. Want provide just one name of a star and its RA and Dec shown in your picture?

Yes, it is non-descript. Just as the starmap is.

Cheers,

Badeskov

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In July of 1993, my husband Erik had an amazing alien encounter while we were living in Portland, Oregon. I was very careful to write down exactly what my husband said because an alien being specifically told him where he -or they–were from. Erik remembered his experience immediately - no hypnosis was used. Erik’s conversation with a Grey is as follows: "We go on the deck. I ask him, 'Are you from the Pleiades?' The Being adamantly replies, 'No.' I ask him where he is from. We look in the sky to see the Big Dipper. He says, 'See the Ursa Major?' I reply “Yes”. The Being then tells me, 'The star cluster to the right and below. The one with the triangle to the left and the little stars in between...we're from that one. “The fourth planet from our sun."

So basically the whole foundation of your belief in the the Hill map is that some guy spoke to a Grey in 1993?

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Charles

For the record One more time-its very obvious that you know nothing about astronomy.

Once again this link shows the triangle: Triangle Aim point RA: 12h 26m 32s Dec: +35°14'59"

You can use this interactive link to establish it location zoom out 3 times until the Big Dipper appears in the image, then you can zoom back in to its original point.

or you can use this:

Click here: http://www.dibonsmith.com/cvn_con.gif

The tip of the triangle is 6 Canes Venatici-and it's location is directly below the Big Dipper. In this map is identified by number (6)

I said that you need to use Norton's Star Atlas and use the epoch 2000 coordinates to plot it out on some grid paper. Go to the library or plot it out....The R.A. and Declination is all you need

Norton's Star Atlas has been around since 1910 and it achieved immediate success by creating a unique convenient arrangement of displaying star maps in slices or gores each covering approximately one fifth of the night sky. Each map covers one fifth of the night sky. Right Ascension and declination is the equivalent of Latitude and longitude Charles and there are 24 time zones, the declination is either plus or minus-and in the case its in the northern hemissphere. Suggest that you try using your scientific skills on SIMBAD.

Steve, I ask you to post both the methodology (maths, geometry and diagram/s showing the 'match'

Charles this is astronomy-so why don’t you try to use the correct terms used in astronomy

Second, why do you keep making assertions about some claimed match in the drawn map and actual star locations when you REFUSE to SHOW the actual match

Charles-Try clicking on the links that I have already provided and for once in your life read the instructions

http://www.astrostud...p.php?hip=56997

Charles this is a link that identifies the star directly to the right of the triangle and its name is 61 Ursa Major

One more time for Charles

Next: The large mystery star that appears in the middle of the star map. Now we get to separate the Men from the boys, and the argument that UFOs and abductions are a joke. (The one that Marjorie fish erased) above and to the right of 61 Ursa Major. (See map in article)

Link http://www.astrostudio.org/xhip.php?hip=56997

Tip: Place the cursor on to the top of the triangle, then place the cursor on the star above 61 Ursa Major above and to the right (Psi Ursa Majoris is the old Greek name)-Click star to get info

On the rest: follow instructions

Edited by Steve3951

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Getting mighty sick of this hogwash.. Let's be VERY SPECIFIC.

For the record One more time-its very obvious that you know nothing about astronomy.

I'll let the audience decide. Audience?

Once again this link shows the triangle: Triangle Aim point RA: 12h 26m 32s Dec: +35°14'59"

It does NOT I repeat NOT show the match with the Betty map. Do you not look at your own links? YOU are claiming a match. SHOW THE MATCH.

It does NOT I repeat NOT show the match with the Betty map. Do you not look at your own links? YOU are claiming a match. SHOW THE MATCH.

Steve, I ask you to post both the methodology (maths, geometry and diagram/s showing the 'match'

Those were MY words - I note you STILL haven't learnt to quote, and you STILL haven't answered this simple request.

SHOW the MATCH. HERE, not as some uselessly irrelevant link elsewhere. I know why you won't do that, Steve...

Charles this is astronomy-so why don’t you try to use the correct terms used in astronomy

Why don't you drop the smarm and ad hominem. And only someone who hasn't a clue about what they are doing would not realise that matching imagery involves maths and geometry

It does NOT I repeat NOT show the match with the Betty map. Do you not look at your own links? YOU are claiming a match. SHOW THE MATCH.

Anyone else spotting a trend here?

One more time for Steve. Those waste of time links do NOT I repeat NOT show the match with the Betty map. Do you not look at your own links? YOU are claiming a match. SHOW THE MATCH.

It does NOT I repeat NOT show the match with the Betty map. Do you not look at your own links? YOU are claiming a match. SHOW THE MATCH.

SHOW THE MATCH, Steve.

SHOW THE MATCH. HERE.

(Will this ever get through, do you think, dear reader?)

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