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Voynich manuscript has 'genuine message'

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Voynich manuscript has 'genuine message'

The message inside "the world's most mysterious medieval manuscript" has eluded cryptographers, mathematicians and linguists for over a century.

And for many, the so-called Voynich book is assumed to be a hoax.

But a new study, published in the journal Plos One, suggests the manuscript may, after all, hold a genuine message.

Scientists say they found linguistic patterns they believe to be meaningful words within the text.

Whether or not it really does have any meaningful information, though, is much debated by amateurs and professionals alike.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22975809

Good to see this topic in the news again, but, we are still none the wiser are we?

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Posted (edited)

I remember reading on unveiledsecretsandmessagesoflight that this was meant as a joke and contains no meaning whatsoever. Many good things on that website but you must remember the number one rule when dealing with channeled messages. If the channelers are not in the habit of performing the challenging process then the purer the seeking the higher the chance that the message will be intercepted by negative beings that will provide false info to discredit the group. I feel good intentions from the group but poor execution and lack of professionalism and knowledge. As for the manuscript itself, I've always kind of hoped there was a message, and the harder to decipher the deeper and more profound the meaning. Still not sure what to make of it though, didn't expect any update on it ever again, this seems to be an intriguing find, but I have a faint feeling that if you produce a nonsensical text and subject it to an analysis done by a supercomputer I have a hunch that sooner or later, with enough analysing, it will find (read: make up) an "explanation". Kind of like when a chimp out of a trillion will accidentally compose War and Peace on a keyboard.

edit: a possible reason for these "semantic patterns" could be patterns in the subconscious mind of the hoaxer who failed to produce a text as random as he meant and unintentionally made up some patterns. But I can't help wondering as to the intentions of the hoaxer. I agree with Rugg's opinion but can't 100% ignore Montemurro's findings. I guess somewhere inside me I hope this were proven to be, or at least suggested to have originated from another world that ended up on ours. A bit like those green-skinned kids in Spain that appeared in a cave near Banjos in 1887. I've always found their story remarkable. Oriental eyes, not speaking Spanish, not being able to feed on Earth food easily... The wiki article is entitled green children of woolpit, although the article is lacking here and there (for example no mention of the oriental eyes). The story is all the more interesting since it is not the only one of its kind. You can read about it and another strangely similar one here: http://www.qsl.net/w...enchildren.html My other guess would be that they appeared in different locations because they lived in an undiscovered underground civilization. Just like it's been suggested that folks in South America used to (still do for all we know). Search for "hidden planet of the inca" on youtube.

Great find Seeder

Edited by Rolci

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Posted (edited)

anyone here want to have a go? Click for bigger!

manuscrito134.jpg

You can find the other pages here

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/esp_ciencia_manuscrito07d.htm

.

Edited by seeder
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Great find Seeker

Thanks. But Im seeder. Another member is called seeker.

an easy thing to mistake though... so no worries!

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sorry, corrected my mistake, another mistake to correct would be to add that I realized that the woolpit case is not the Spain one (obviously), not sure if there is a wiki article about the Spain incident.

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Yeah, that's a curious manuscript to be sure. I recall years ago going through the pages on-line somewhere.

Never could make any sense of it, though the section on reproduction was interesting(the drawings)

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I guess it does: A sucker is born every minute!

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Many good things on that website but you must remember the number one rule when dealing with channeled messages. If the channelers are not in the habit of performing the challenging process then the purer the seeking the higher the chance that the message will be intercepted by negative beings that will provide false info to discredit the group.

..well that's certainly a convenient caveat to explain why channeling 'goes wrong'.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

youd have thought some of its pictures would be easy to understand wouldnt you?

voynich-8.jpg

Voynich_baths25.jpg

Voynich+3.png

manuscrito122.jpg

any arty people here who can understand/interpret what was being drawn?

Loads more images here

http://www.bibliotec...nuscrito07a.htm

Edited by seeder

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I wonder if... being serious, if the author was a dyslexic and a bad speller? If so we may never crack the text.

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The third one is one of the things that gives it away as a hoax or a joke. It's an old Tau or T-in-O map. It was a stylized medieval schema of the the Earth, with the Oceanus surrounding the three continents, Asia, Africa and Europe, with Jerusalem at the center.

It certainly wouldn't have been made by any serious scholar after 1492 when the New World was discovered, and was well on the way out before then, too. The other names may be some sort of tutelary god or angel.

--Jaylemurph

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jaylemurph> you obviously aren't a serious scholar yourself. It's been dated to the 1400's but that doesn't mean that it was actually made then it could be a bit older. That being said, it's probably a conlang because it contains medical (wiccan?) information and in medieval Europe stuff like this could be confused as witchcraft. A strange but eloquent could save your head in some areas of Christian Europe. I read online that it has been, at least in part deciphered but I don't know how credible the source was.

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Posted (edited)

In the second pic above, it appears that she is either holding onto, or reaching for, a symbol that resembles a Christian cross.

Edit: And looking closer, and in context with my above statement, those drawings might be a highly stylized rendition of Hell, purgatory or punishment. Just guessing, of course.

Edited by pallidin

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jaylemurph> you obviously aren't a serious scholar yourself.

Actually, I am -- not that I feel a particular need to defend that position to you here. If you want more information about the Tau maps and their position in the 15th Century particularly, I recommend David Summers' excellent book Vision, Relfection and Desire in West Painting (Univ of North Carolina Press, 2006). Unless, of course, you know more about the subject than an imminent Art Historian.

It's been dated to the 1400's but that doesn't mean that it was actually made then it could be a bit older.

If by "the 1400's [sic]", you mean "Early 16th Century", yes it is from the early 16th Century, but not any older. [http://phys.org/news/2011-02-experts-age.html]

That being said, it's probably a conlang because it contains medical (wiccan?) information and in medieval Europe stuff like this could be confused as witchcraft.

This is interesting. Do you mean to say it's it from "the 1400's [sic]" or is it Wiccan, which is a purely modern movement and whose 'reconstructios' have almost nothing to do with whatever people were doing in the medieval period?

And, yes, it probably could have been considered witchcraft, not just by the common people, but by the most learned people in Europe. In fact, the learned people probably drew less of a distinction than the commoners. There was no formal distinction between medicine, astrology, and magic for almost another century, and many kinds of magic were not just tolerated but recommended by the Church. (Francis Yates discusses this merging of astronomy, magic and medicine specifically referencing the magical practices of Marcino Ficino in Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1964. You can also read there about Pope Alexander VI and the magician and cabbalist, Pico de Mirandola).

A strange but eloquent could save your head in some areas of Christian Europe. I read online that it has been, at least in part deciphered but I don't know how credible the source was.

I'm not sure what "a strange but eloquent could save your head" even means.

Witches were burned, not beheaded -- which was generally reserved for treason, and usually for the upper classes. And anyway, witchburning wasn't particularly common until the end of the 16th Century and the 17th Century. In any case, it wasn't the common folk who'd be ordering such an execution, and the people who would, the literate upperclass, would have been unlikely to try to execute someone for having a magical textbook; there were plenty in print by people like Paracelsus, Agrippa and Ficino, and before printing, texts by people like Ramon Lull, people who lived long, successful lives, some with full church backing.

But as someone who "reads online" you probably already knew all this background material, right?

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

The third one is one of the things that gives it away as a hoax or a joke. It's an old Tau or T-in-O map. It was a stylized medieval schema of the the Earth, with the Oceanus surrounding the three continents, Asia, Africa and Europe, with Jerusalem at the center.

It certainly wouldn't have been made by any serious scholar after 1492 when the New World was discovered, and was well on the way out before then, too. The other names may be some sort of tutelary god or angel.

--Jaylemurph

Yes! Those words are recognizable, I wonder why the decipherable text amidst the undecipherable text throughout the rest of the book. It seems misplaced, but this is the first I've heard of this book and looked at the pages.

Edited by QuiteContrary

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As for the extensive drawings of "plants", I'm not sure what to make of them.

I think(?) I heard somewhere on the net that one was identified as a known earth plant. I could be wrong about that.

But the other's seem to remain a complete mystery.

Perhaps from another planet? Perhaps the writings are an alien language? Who knows.

Or perhaps the human author of that manuscript came across a psychedelic plant, consumed it and thus elaborated his/her "visions" :w00t:

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Actually, I am -- not that I feel a particular need to defend that position to you here. If you want more information about the Tau maps and their position in the 15th Century particularly, I recommend David Summers' excellent book Vision, Relfection and Desire in West Painting (Univ of North Carolina Press, 2006). Unless, of course, you know more about the subject than an imminent Art Historian.

If by "the 1400's [sic]", you mean "Early 16th Century", yes it is from the early 16th Century, but not any older. ["]http://phys.org/news...perts-age.html]

This is interesting. Do you mean to say it's it from "the 1400's [sic]" or is it Wiccan, which is a purely modern movement and whose 'reconstructios' have almost nothing to do with whatever people were doing in the medieval period?

And, yes, it probably could have been considered witchcraft, not just by the common people, but by the most learned people in Europe. In fact, the learned people probably drew less of a distinction than the commoners. There was no formal distinction between medicine, astrology, and magic for almost another century, and many kinds of magic were not just tolerated but recommended by the Church. (Francis Yates discusses this merging of astronomy, magic and medicine specifically referencing the magical practices of Marcino Ficino in Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1964. You can also read there about Pope Alexander VI and the magician and cabbalist, Pico de Mirandola).

I'm not sure what "a strange but eloquent could save your head" even means.

Witches were burned, not beheaded -- which was generally reserved for treason, and usually for the upper classes. And anyway, witchburning wasn't particularly common until the end of the 16th Century and the 17th Century. In any case, it wasn't the common folk who'd be ordering such an execution, and the people who would, the literate upperclass, would have been unlikely to try to execute someone for having a magical textbook; there were plenty in print by people like Paracelsus, Agrippa and Ficino, and before printing, texts by people like Ramon Lull, people who lived long, successful lives, some with full church backing.

But as someone who "reads online" you probably already knew all this background material, right?

--Jaylemurph

That article doesn't say it was created in the 16th century.

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Here are some documentaries about the Voynich manuscript that are pretty interesting

[media=]

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http://www.edithsher...coded/index.php

This seems like she might have cracked some of it. How fascinating that it remains a mystery still after all this time.

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I saw a program on this only a week or so ago (strange coincidence!) and it is thought that this is an herbalist book used for traditional folk medicine. An antique book dealer found it in a box of "rare books" he purchased from a book seller. It seems that the author wrote it in code to prevent others from using his knowledge of these remedies, sort of as a trade secret. Many of the plants are fanciful and may be more than one species drawn together if they even represent living plants, but some are supposedly recognizable and known medicinal herbs. Some of circular pictures are almost hypnotic when rotated at their center point, almost having a film like quality. Very strange book indeed.

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That article doesn't say it was created in the 16th century.

You're absolutely right, and I was absolutely wrong. It does totally say 15th Century. Since you quoted my post, I can't go back and edit it, or else I would go back. I owe brizink a particular apology.

But much of my previous post does stand.

--Jaylemurph

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Me and a friend were discussing this a couple of days ago. We were talking about the book of thoth being the pagan bible so to speak, (in a philasophical buddah sence). My theory is that the manuscript is a copy of the book of thoth, in my understanding from the pictures it's a spellbook so to speak, the early version of a medicine book... in other words how s*** works. That's my theory atleast, could also speak for as to why the codex is so messy.

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Why not a red herring? A clever ruse to potentially confuse or even awe an adversary.

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Why not a red herring? A clever ruse to potentially confuse or even awe an adversary.

They estimated that it would have taken several years to complete the book. I don't think someone would do that just to prank somebody.

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youd have thought some of its pictures would be easy to understand wouldnt you?Voynich+3.png

this picture at least is immediately recognizable to any cartographer as a common stylization of a world map, known as a T & O map because of the circular shape and 'T' across the middle.

asia and the east is at the top, africa on the right and europe to the left . you can almost read the names.

the cardinal directions were usually written in their latin - oriens (ori - east), septentrio (sep - north), merridies (mer - south), occidens (occ - west).

on this particular version we see the word anatole indicating east (top), and the other directions similarly marked.

i'm no cartographer myself, and it is fairly common knowledge if you like old maps, so i'm sure someone has recognized this in their research of the document, but it would be interesting to know what has been made of this map and what it might reveal about the rest of the manuscript.

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