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seeder

Voynich manuscript has 'genuine message'

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Posted (edited)

this picture at least is immediately recognizable to any cartographer as a common stylization of a world map, known as a T & O map because of the circular shape and 'T' across the middle.

asia and the east is at the top, africa on the right and europe to the left . you can almost read the names.

the cardinal directions were usually written in their latin - oriens (ori - east), septentrio (sep - north), merridies (mer - south), occidens (occ - west).

on this particular version we see the word anatole indicating east (top), and the other directions similarly marked.

i'm no cartographer myself, and it is fairly common knowledge if you like old maps, so i'm sure someone has recognized this in their research of the document, but it would be interesting to know what has been made of this map and what it might reveal about the rest of the manuscript.

cool, can you recognize anything else from the actual page scripts? (link above)

edit: heres the link, as we are now on page 2 its no longer above! BTW I also recognized similar text to asia and eurpoa, africa

http://www.bibliotec...nuscrito07d.htm

Edited by seeder

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It's just a Sasquatch cookbook

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They estimated that it would have taken several years to complete the book. I don't think someone would do that just to prank somebody.

There was a certain type of Renaissance... well, we wouldn't call it a prank or a joke, really, more sort of a intellectual exercise with metaphysically humorous intent, where the amount of energy expended on a project was completely out of proportion to its goal, to sort of stun other people that someone bothered with so much work.

The VM is sort of the perfect example of that. It's only really mysterious inasmuch as that sort of fad no longer is possible. I imagine in 500 years, the Hula Hoop will be sort of the same thing phyiscally as this is intellectually.

--Jaylemurph

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There was a certain type of Renaissance... well, we wouldn't call it a prank or a joke, really, more sort of a intellectual exercise with metaphysically humorous intent, where the amount of energy expended on a project was completely out of proportion to its goal, to sort of stun other people that someone bothered with so much work.

The VM is sort of the perfect example of that. It's only really mysterious inasmuch as that sort of fad no longer is possible. I imagine in 500 years, the Hula Hoop will be sort of the same thing phyiscally as this is intellectually.

--Jaylemurph

Hmm, well it must have been a rich man without any wife and kids doing it, cause he spent a hell of a long time and money just to prank.

If this was the case as you say -that it was this sort of fad around then- it surely must be more examples of similar pranks still around?

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The best example would be a text called Hypnerotomachia Polyphili, which is usually translated as The Struggle of Love in a Dream. It's partly an allegory for the voyage of the soul, but it's written in about a dozen languages and lavishly illustrated, and the author is not certainly known. It's from 1499, so it's even from the same general timeframe.

--Jaylemurph

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I read somewhere ( maybe here as I cant quite remember where) that it might be some form of alchemical codex. I look forward to more information.

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I read somewhere ( maybe here as I cant quite remember where) that it might be some form of alchemical codex. I look forward to more information.

That was suspected for a long time, what is evident is that whoever wrote it was not very consequential, it was much more an exercise in "pretending to make gold", where a large amount of gold passed from one pocket to another.

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Posted (edited)

Actually, I am -- not that I feel a particular need to defend that position to you here. If you want more information about the Tau maps and their position in the 15th Century particularly, I recommend David Summers' excellent book Vision, Relfection and Desire in West Painting (Univ of North Carolina Press, 2006). Unless, of course, you know more about the subject than an imminent Art Historian.

If by "the 1400's [sic]", you mean "Early 16th Century", yes it is from the early 16th Century, but not any older. [http://phys.org/news...perts-age.html]

This is interesting. Do you mean to say it's it from "the 1400's [sic]" or is it Wiccan, which is a purely modern movement and whose 'reconstructios' have almost nothing to do with whatever people were doing in the medieval period?

And, yes, it probably could have been considered witchcraft, not just by the common people, but by the most learned people in Europe. In fact, the learned people probably drew less of a distinction than the commoners. There was no formal distinction between medicine, astrology, and magic for almost another century, and many kinds of magic were not just tolerated but recommended by the Church. (Francis Yates discusses this merging of astronomy, magic and medicine specifically referencing the magical practices of Marcino Ficino in Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1964. You can also read there about Pope Alexander VI and the magician and cabbalist, Pico de Mirandola).

I'm not sure what "a strange but eloquent could save your head" even means.

Witches were burned, not beheaded -- which was generally reserved for treason, and usually for the upper classes. And anyway, witchburning wasn't particularly common until the end of the 16th Century and the 17th Century. In any case, it wasn't the common folk who'd be ordering such an execution, and the people who would, the literate upperclass, would have been unlikely to try to execute someone for having a magical textbook; there were plenty in print by people like Paracelsus, Agrippa and Ficino, and before printing, texts by people like Ramon Lull, people who lived long, successful lives, some with full church backing.

But as someone who "reads online" you probably already knew all this background material, right?

--Jaylemurph

A multi-quote would have been much easier. I don't need to defend myself on here? obviously you took that a bit personal. Haha, no one cares what sources you have cited or even what book you read on the subject. The truth is that the manuscript contains information that would be otherwise impossibly dangerous in the late 16th century. So assuming you are correct in that it cannot be older than you say, then of course getting burned at the stake (save your head is a euphemism, just because were talking about something pertaining to public execution doesn't mean I'm referencing the method of execution, ***SNIP*** you forgot to read between the lines) could be a real concern. As for individuals of the upper class that might have more to lose so to speak; they would be hard pressed if they did not cover something up. The fact that this was done by a scribe, e.g. someone who was getting paid lends some credence to why it was done in a conlang. I meant a strange and eloquent "writing", sorry for the apparent confusion, you must not be very astute when it comes to being objective and progressive. Think outside the scholarly box. The only people who ever made progress did so, unlike yourself. Radio carbon dating has been disputed and hailed equally and by mainstream science since it was conceived. There are a number of reasons why it could be as old as 1100 bc and you can't prove otherwise, I'm not saying that it is, I'm just saying prove it. As for your Wicca reference ***SNIP I'm aware that this is a general term that refers mostly to the neo-pagan movement as it pertains to the resurgence of Indo-European earth based religions. That being said, I don't think using the term "Wicca" or "Wiccan" is that far off from being relatively accurate enough for you to get what I'm referencing. You obviously did since you pointed out my "error". When you talk about all these teachers, theologians and clergymen, All I can really think is who in their right mind uses a few rich men from from Italy or Iberia and thinks that one could surmise an opinion on the whole of European attitude? If it was in writing and we still have it, you can bet that anything other than facts plucked from a timeline, are likely based on the opinions of men with a scued perspective since they would be very unlikely to be commoners with a full ink well and lots of blank pages along with enough time to not have to work or perhaps that is their work. Which they would likely get paid handsomely for.

Oh and lastly, I did point out that the website I read the "translation" on, was of dubious legitimacy. ***SNIP***

Edited by Waspie_Dwarf
removed personal attacks.

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I read, sometime in the past and can no longer remember precisely what it was, that one possibility was that the person suffered from a specific disorder (sorry been too long and don't remember) that included the creation of their own written languages.

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Hmm, well it must have been a rich man without any wife and kids doing it, cause he spent a hell of a long time and money just to prank.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Have you heard of the Codex Seriphianus? A similar book in that it's written in a seemingly unknown language and unknown script with all sorts of oddball illustrations of strange lifeforms. At 360 pages, it took the artist (Luigi Serafini) two and a half years to complete it.

Perhaps the author of the Voynich manuscript worked on it in his spare time for years and didn't need to sacrifice family or personal life to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Seraphinianus

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The truth is that the manuscript contains information that would be otherwise impossibly dangerous in the late 16th century.

Well, no, that's not the truth. For that to be the truth, you'd have to actually know what was /in/ the text, and the whole point about this manuscript is that no one does. Except, apparently, you. So since you know what all the text says, please enlighten us.

As for individuals of the upper class that might have more to lose so to speak; they would be hard pressed if they did not cover something up.

Well, no. They would have less need to cover up, not more. As when the Popes received magical blessing from Campanella or rich men accumulated forbidden texts in their libraries. But it's all moot, since any reaction to the text would depend on the information contained in it. Which no one knows. But you.

The fact that this was done by a scribe

Well, I suppose if you somehow magically know the text of the manuscript, there's no reason you wouldn't also magically know its provenance. So sure, yeah, it was the work of a scribe and not the author.

Think outside the scholarly box. The only people who ever made progress did so, unlike yourself.

I will be happy to do so when you show me the difference between "thinking outside the box" and "making things up from whole cloth", and yet I have a lingering doubt based on the above you may have diffculty doing so. Dunno why.

There are a number of reasons why it could be as old as 1100 bc and you can't prove otherwise, I'm not saying that it is, I'm just saying prove it.

Wel, yes: if you magically know what was written and magically know who wrote it, it follows you would magically know when they did it. And I admit I certainly can't prove you don't magically know everything there is to know about the text.

But, actually, yes there are physical reasons it couldn't be from 1,100 BCE: paper, on which the text is written, did not exist then, nor did the style of binding used for the book, both of which did not develop until the current era (c. 200 CE and 700 CE, respectively). And I'd give you citation for those facts, but based on your snide comments above, you don't need no stinkin' facts.

But, gosh, it looks like your magical source of information about the manuscript is not infallible. That must be a blow for your ego.

As for your Wicca reference ***SNIP I'm aware that this is a general term that refers mostly to the neo-pagan movement as it pertains to the resurgence of Indo-European earth based religions. That being said, I don't think using the term "Wicca" or "Wiccan" is that far off from being relatively accurate enough for you to get what I'm referencing.

And, indeed, it /is/ enough for you to demonstrate you don't quite know what you're talking about -- you can't even find the correct word to describe it.

When you talk about all these teachers, theologians and clergymen, All I can really think is who in their right mind uses a few rich men from from Italy or Iberia and thinks that one could surmise an opinion on the whole of European attitude?

Who in their right mind uses the opinions of a spectrum of period thinkers to discuss period thought? Well, (again) you've proven explicitly that you don't need no stinkin' textual references, so the precise answer is hard to discuss, so I'll just go with the simple "a lot" or more specifically, "a lot you don't know and apparently can't be arsed to find out." If you relent on your dedication to ignorance and want to follow up with things like names and books, I'll be happy to provide them.

If it was in writing and we still have it, you can bet that anything other than facts plucked from a timeline, are likely based on the opinions of men with a scued perspective since they would be very unlikely to be commoners with a full ink well and lots of blank pages along with enough time to not have to work or perhaps that is their work. Which they would likely get paid handsomely for.

I think you mean "skewed". I also think that we can safely add spelling to the list of your magic abilities that need a tune-up. And I've read that (run-on) sentence* four times and still can't quite work out what exactly you mean. Maybe you can clarify it for us.

*And grammar to that tune-up list, too.

Oh and lastly, I did point out that the website I read the "translation" on, was of dubious legitimacy. ***SNIP***

Well, you have made it understood your requirements for facts and accuracy is pretty low.

--Jaylemurph

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Check out these drawings by Charles Steffen made in the 1950's while he was a patient at a mental hospital:

Perhaps the origin of the VM can be partially explained by the mental state of its author.

http://www.huffingto..._n_3713308.html

Those are oddly similar (especially that first one). You may be on to something there...which would be bittersweet if it turned out to be true. Such a huge mystery turns out to be the work of a crazy person lol

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Am i the only one who would die of laughter if this turned out to be a dirty book with instruction on how to make herbal viagra?

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