History Debate!

[DeWitz]

This is called forum if you didnt noticed where people discuss. Not just mention one name and disapear for eternity.

So now I must ignores my history because Im Croat? Get real. I should agree on Pasheri because mentioning smaller countries is forbidden?

Please I do not have complex for being small country. Im proud of my country history. We are here from 7 century. Happy to be alive. Something like Israel.

Pasheri mentioned Slavs and Hungarians stoping Mongols.

I respond that Mongols burnt Hungary and half of Croatia and on other half of Croatia they didnt go well and why.

To proove point that they didnt stop Mongols.

Trust me if I wanted to wrote about it I will fullfill 3 pages minimum.

You having problems with Hungarians and Croats perhaps?

Apparently you read what you want, not what I write.

My wife is 100% Magyar, and a good friend of mine is married to a Croat. I attended graduate school classes with Croats, Serbs, Iraqis and over a dozen other ethnicities and nationalities. I speak four languages and read five more, and have lived in three countries. So leave your paranoia behind, at least when it comes to me, whom you don't know from Adam. I have no problems with Hungarians or Croats, or Baluchistanis or Martians, for that matter. I do get impatient with people who see what they want to see, and not what is actually written.

Yes, it's a forum--that's why I shared my opinion along with everyone else. I never forbade or rejected anybody's point of view; I simply added my own opinion--as valid as yours, Tut's or anyone else's.

If you can't read what I write, at least take to heart your own words: This is a forum, and within the parameters of UM you or I or Mickey Mouse can say whatever we want. So, feel free to respond and refute your own words at the beginning of your most recent post.

Mir!---You're probably a very nice, interesting person--but perhaps you should limit yourself to one cup of coffee per post.

Edited June 28, 2013 by szentgyorgy

[DeWitz]

1612 was essentially a fantasy film. It had a unicorn!, well, yes, a dream sequence, but..... And it turned reality on it's head with Poles trying to take Moscow and failing, when reality is that they did take Moscow, and then were ejected by Minin and Pozharsky, who are hardly mentioned in the film, but some fantasy Spaniards are. Poles hate this film, but really it is all nonsense. Entertaining fantasy, but certainly not history. There was a better film, using the same props, about Taras Bulba, also hated by Poles....

Thanks for the movie review! This was a purchase I made because it came under the heading of "obscure wars" (my hobby), at least obscure from a North American perspective. There's a movie from the 50's or 60's named "Taras Bulba," starring Tony Curtis, I believe, which was at least a partial American production. I doubt that's the film you have in mind.

The dream-unicorn didn't bother me; I had read about some Orthodox holy men taking certain vows during the time of troubles, but I had no idea whether the 'geo-political' info was valid. Thanks for setting me straight.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Because minor or major its all count when you study history.

Georgia was small too yet its one of most epic tales of Mongolian conquest.

Naimans and Kuchlug were relativly small but their story was epic.

Croats and Hungarians were small yet they have some interesting stories to share as Battle of Mohi, Battle of Klis, Battle of Trogir, Battle of Split...

In the end Mongols were small population in certain sense yet they become big.

I reacated because you notice and stressed out irelevant things. No hard feelings here.

Edited June 28, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Now I know you have problems with Hungarians. Hint: wife

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Thanks for the movie review! This was a purchase I made because it came under the heading of "obscure wars" (my hobby), at least obscure from a North American perspective. There's a movie from the 50's or 60's named "Taras Bulba," starring Tony Curtis, I believe, which was at least a partial American production. I doubt that's the film you have in mind.

The dream-unicorn didn't bother me; I had read about some Orthodox holy men taking certain vows during the time of troubles, but I had no idea whether the 'geo-political' info was valid. Thanks for setting me straight.

The priest in chains was representative of all the others who had taken vows. I only saw the old Taras Bulba film on youtube clips, with the Russian Yul Bryner as the Ukranian Taras Bulba (nothing is easy with this period)..... The new film is this one http://en.wikipedia....lba_(2009_film)

And some nerd type info. The famous Zaporozhian Cossacks who these films are about, are now the Kuban Cossacks living in Russian Krasnodar Region. Well, it is slightly more complicated story, but digressing too far from OP I think. Though Catherine the Great was also a conqueror. Krasnodar used to be Ekaterinodar between the conquest of Kuban and the revolution.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Tutankhaten-pasheri

[DeWitz]

Because minor or major its all count when you study history.

Georgia was small too yet its one of most epic tales of Mongolian conquest.

Naimans and Kuchlug were relativly small but their story was epic.

Croats and Hungarians were small yet they have some interesting stories to share as Battle of Mohi, Battle of Klis, Battle of Trogir, Battle of Split...

In the end Mongols were small population in certain sense yet they become big.

I reacated because you notice and stressed out irelevant things. No hard feelings here.

No hard feelings, L---my point wasn't ethnicity, but the intricacy and detail some posters are putting into this. I think the criiteria for "best conqueror" were lost in the shuffle, so I offered my alternative "do-gooder" conquerors just to make people think. Somehow I struck a nerve, unintentionally, with you by repeating 2 ethnic/national group names; but I did so in context, respectfully. I wasn't putting anybody down.

So, "mir" it shall be, I trust.

[DeWitz]

The priest in chains was representative of all the others who had taken vows. I only saw the old Taras Bulba film on youtube clips, with the Russian Yul Bryner as the Ukranian Taras Bulba (nothing is easy with this period)..... The new film is this one http://en.wikipedia....lba_(2009_film)

And some nerd type info. The famous Zaporozhian Cossacks who these films are about, are now the Kuban Cossacks living in Russian Krasnodar Region. Well, it is slightly more complicated story, but digressing too far from OP I think. Though Catherine the Great was also a conqueror. Krasnodar used to be Ekaterinodar between the conquest of Kuban and the revolution.

Thank you for the information!

[DeWitz]

Now I know you have problems with Hungarians. Hint: wife

Oh, no!!! You have seen through me!

[kannin]

Roman empire at its prime was an amazing force, shizzah!

[Big Bad Voodoo]

To me the most interesting is Takeda Shingen, the incident with the war fan for instance. Also for defeating Oda Nobunaga and Tokugawa Ieyasu combined.

I like Japan history. I know little about it. Im willing to learn more. I heard about Takeda Shingen but dont know nothing about battles.

Right now Im studing about Venetian and Dutch republic. I will learn more when I would have more time. Right now I know outlines.

But ofcourse as you see from my post 38 Im very well aware how Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu were big.

I like history from Japan, Vietnam, Korea, China, India,...

Here is one interesting story about famous strategist and tactican in China which I mentioned already.

Zhuge Liang.

Zhuge Liang and the Empty City (228 AD)

Zhuge Liang (Shu kingdom) failed to conquer Changan in Wei kingdom because of defeat at the Battle of Jieting. He was in city Xicheng with 10 000 soldiers and on him was aproching great tactican and strategist Sima Yi of Wei with 200 000 soldiers. All others Shu soldiers were busy and not able to help them. Every other person would retreat. But not Zhuge Liang.

He ordered that all gates to be opened, drums silent, banners hide, soldiers disguised as civilians.

Then he climbed on platform above city gate. In middle of war he stay calm. He sit down, pull his guqin (instrument) and start to play music.

Wei army and Sima Yi were stunned. Not any soldier dare to enter the city. They thought its ambush. Sima Yi ordered retreat.

I recomand you to study him. Quotes, deeds, desicion making.

If person in China is more famous then Sun Tzu then you know we have extraordinary person.

There is also one story about him I adore. About missing arrows.

Maybe you watched movie Red Cliff?

Edited June 28, 2013 by the L

[Mr.United_Nations]

Roman empire at its prime was an amazing force, shizzah!

Which Roman Empire is that?

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Maybe you watched movie Red Cliff?

Never saw any Chinese films. Almost all non European films I watch are Japanese, Samurai and horror. Some strange fascination with a country with such high level of civilisation, such culture and politeness, then sudden slash of the best swords made and blood splashing everywhere. Curious mix. However, it's not a problem to remember names of battles in Japan as they tended to fight each other in only a few places, five battles at Kawanakajima alone. btw, the Japanese did not have to rely on typhoons to defeat the Mongols, though of course they helped. On both invasions, 1274 and 1281 at Hakata Bay, the Mongols landed their army and attacked the Japanese with rockets and gunpowder, which the Japanse did not have then, and the Mongol bow was superior. And as we know, the Japanese had the victory, the Mongols loosing their ships to the storms after having been defeated on land. It is a popular misconception that the "Kamikaze" sunk the Mongol fleets before they even got to shore.

[kannin]

Which Roman Empire is that?

loved the byzantine and holy romans

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Tut-Pasheri

Mongols tried twice and both times failed. There was plan for third invasion as well.

Yes they have tech you wrote and they were on shore. But for example at one trying of invasion at night kamikaze ruined ships.

Then Mongol elite enter the rest of floating ship and left rest of mortals to die.

Samurai built wall at Hakata Bay as protection...they fight for days...

If there wasnt Kamikaze Japan would be under Kublai Khan.

Mongols defeat themselves with ignorance about climate. They show their weakness. Sea.

They were not defeated before divine wind.

Japanese kill all Mongols, Koreans except some Chinese which they took as slaves.

About Red Cliff. This is video from the movie. You will recognize calm Zhuge Liang.

One day his army needed 100 000 arrows. Although some say this story is myth. Others truth.

But I would not be surprised knowing him if this story was true.

Anyway he needed 100 000 arrows. And there wasnt time to made arrows.

So he burrowed arrows from enemy. He sent a ship....just see the clip you will understand.

[media=]

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After he steal enemies arrow he left the scene.

Edited June 28, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Tut there is first time for anything. Watch this movie.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJHY6jr46A4[/media]

You will get a peek of China warfare in 3rd century.

Edited June 28, 2013 by the L

[DeWitz]

Oh, no!!! You have seen through me!

Oh, and, by the way, what language is "szentgyorgy?" I'm told Croatia has beautiful women beaches on the Dalmatia coast.

[jmccr8]

Hi L,

I've been following your posts on the Mongols, they are both interesting and informative.

jmccr8

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Thanks jmccr8 . Here is one interesting story about Mongols.

This will be my last post to proove my point. Whole story about Mongol is as al Athir said :“History books do not contain nothing similar or even close to it.“

Look what al Athir wrote also:

„People emerges from border of China, before year pass some of them reach land of Armenia and go beyond (about this I will wrote in my post)….When long time pass and someone sees this record of this event will refuse to accept it and think of most unlikely, although truth is his hands..Since comming Prophet untill present time Muslims have not suffer this such hardship and misery as afflicting now.“

When I start exploring Mongols I thought I will learn about these nomads in a week or so. Then I realize that history of steppe is very complicated. Very long. And very interesting. Obedience of Temujin army was nothing world seen before and ever since. Their diplomacy. Their psychological war. Their tactics for destroying siege tactics were amazing. Such as building the dam then releasing water. They put dead people on catapult and throw it into city to spread black death. Mongol legacy was black death in Europe.They were worst nightmare for settle societies. Lived close to earth. Like tribes in North and South America and Africa. I have many paintings about steppe people from historical books which I can upload if you desire. Mongols have had spy network. Subutai met Venetians who gave him maps.

When Temujin created state he didnt proclaim him ruler of state. But ruler of „all who dwell in tents“. Meaning ruler of all who built houses. So when they came for example in Persia, or Russia…They look upon those people as their citizens already. And if you dared to say something against Temujin or Mongolia you would not be considered external enemy of Mongolia but rebel. And punishment for rebellion was death. It was your own problem to not knowing law. Not knowing law (which they created far in Mongolia) doesnt save you from it.

Crusades were going. Georgians promised Pope that they will participate in Crusade and promise Pope army which they gather. They were ready to launch attack on Islam. 70 000 knights and 30 000 Cumans or Kypchaks Turks, another steppe people, under George IV of Georgia. But what George didnt know was that Subutai ask Temujin to allow his expedition to the west with 30 000 Mongols. Mongols first time clashed with Christians were on Caucasus in Goergia. In 1221. When Subutai launch attack on this already gathered army, even outnumbered, arrows riped the air. It was usual Mongol tactic. Releasing arrows, runing around border lines, killing much of enemies as you can. And it was done in total silence. No drama. No drums. Drums start playing only when mounted heavy cavalry charged in battle, with swords, maces, spears. When arrows worked none Mongols would made a sound. Drums were psychological attack and heavy cavalry for finishing battles. When heavy cavalry enter in battle you know its already over. Anyway, Georgians start to attack Mongols. They marched. Mongols retreat so Georgians were spread. They followed Mongols. What Georgians didnt know was that Subutai and Jebe leave some of their troops in the rear hidden. And when Mongol horses were tired (you can imagine how was tired Georgian army under armor) they mounted new fresh horses and launch counter attack while hidden army attack from rear. Mongol heavy cavalry under Jebe clash with Georgians. George IV fled. After they deleted Georgian army rest of Georgians in cities expected attack. Two week pass and nothing. They were confused. Army for crusade was destroyed (by Mongol scouting army). Subutai went in Iran for refreshing his army. He asked help from Persian cities. Who didnt provide help was sacked. Simply. When they came back in Georgia, their King was waiting them with new raised army. Only this time George waited them in foothills. They didnt want to go on openfield where Mongols could rape them with their mobility. But there was pass in mountains were Subutai hide 5000 Mongols as ambush. Georgians move beyond that crack exposing their flank and „boom.“ Now Georigians move whole army for 90 degrees to face new treat leaving exposed flank to Subutai. Almost all were killed by hunt that last for days. Mongols were chasing them as animals. For days. King escape but soon he died. Now in Tblisi on thoren was woman. Queen Rusudan. With no military. She wrote to Pope a letter saying: „Georgians wont be in next crusade.“

Subutai move to one Muslim Shah to seek guides to pass Caucasus. Shah order guides that lead Mongols trough roughest terrain and longest route. While he used shortest path to send messenger to warn others people on other side of Caucasus about incoming terror. So that they must be united against this what they didnt know was scout expedition. When Mongol pass glacier mountain they seen a scene. 50 000 soldiers in formation were waiting for them. Equpied,supplied. Subutai now understand he was manipulated. He tries attack and fails so he retreat. But Mongols saw when they attack that this is a mix army of Christhians, Muslims, Alans, Pagans and Cumans. So Subutai show his diplomacy skills. He sent envoys to Cumans with story how they all are stepe brothers. That they dont have problems with Cumans. We have problems with these others people from cities. We will give you loot and money just leave. Cumans agreed and in morning their left the scene. Subutai destroy rest of this army and start chasing Cumans. Why? Because he wanted his treasure back. He catch Cumans and deleted them too. Now road to Europe was open.

And this is just PART of Subutai EXPEDITION. Imagine what Mongols did when they were on invasion.

In the end lets quote wiki about Subutai:

He directed more than twenty campaigns in which he conquered thirty-two nations and won sixty-five pitched battles, during which he conquered or overran more territory than any other commander in history.[1] He gained victory by means of imaginative and sophisticated strategies and routinely coordinated movements of armies that were hundreds of kilometers away from each other. He is also remembered for devising the campaign that destroyed the armies of Hungary and Poland within two days of each other, by forces over five hundred kilometers apart.

Edited June 29, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

...When long time pass and someone sees record of this event will refuse to accept it and think of most unlikely, although truth is his hands...

Edited June 29, 2013 by the L

[kannin]

Help us write our story I think it will turn out great with colaboration with many members heres the link

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=250186&hl=

[kannin]

A unique UM novel done by all of us

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Oh, and, by the way, what language is "szentgyorgy?" I'm told Croatia has beautiful women beaches on the Dalmatia coast.

Sorry for not responding earlier.

I have no clue. I only recognize "orgy".

Yes Croatia have most beautiful women and beaches. Judge by yourself.

Btw Im fan of Spanish civil war anrachy and all. Also Winter war.

Here is my recent post.

Amazing.

I always have much respect for Finns because of their Sisu.

There are stories in history that they rided deers. During Winter war David almost won over Goliath. They invented wooden land mine to be hard to detect, they guerilla were amazing. Russian drug for treating injured was frozen yet Finnish find their way...they carried morphine in mouth under tounge...when Russian tanks were on icelakes they detonate mines and tanks simply felt under ice cold water...Russian in end have Phyric victory...loosing far more then Finns in victims of war.

Im quite sure that those people deserve different history.

Edited June 29, 2013 by the L

[DeWitz]

Sorry for not responding earlier.

I have no clue. I only recognize "orgy".

Yes Croatia have most beautiful women and beaches. Judge by yourself.

Btw Im fan of Spanish civil war anrachy and all. Also Winter war.

Here is my recent post.

Good post! And great phtos. Do you work for the Croatian Travel Bureau? 'Zsentgyorgy' is Hungarian (no beaches except on Lake Balaton). Good lookin' women, though. The Winter War and Spanish Civil War are both fascinating to me, and very different (especially Winter War) from USA's adventures. There are some US Civil War/Spanish Civil War similarities. Weirdly, I've been bored most of my life with our Civil War until recently. Actually, I fear we're creeping towards another one here in the US, so I'm trying to catch-up on the basis and reasons for the first one.

Edited June 29, 2013 by szentgyorgy

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Good post! And great phtos. Do you work for the Croatian Travel Bureau? 'Zsentgyorgy' is Hungarian (no beaches except on Lake Balaton). Good lookin' women, though. The Winter War and Spanish Civil War are both fascinating to me, and very different (especially Winter War) from USA's adventures. There are some US Civil War/Spanish Civil War similarities. Weirdly, I've been bored most of my life with our Civil War until recently. Actually, I fear we're creeping towards another one here in the US, so I'm trying to catch-up on the basis and reasons for the first one.

My own good posts are 110 and 118. Im not working in CTB. Neiher people who actually go there and get money for their "work." They spent millions and they only create one video spot per year. We have atleast 20 offical offices for tourism, its labirith...no one knows duties...nothing. It real mess. Sadly. If nature didnt gave us what we have we would be dead by now.

Croatian economy has HUGE potential. But in our history we have two golden ages. One during 19 century under Austria and one during 1970s during Yugoslavia. Ofcourse I speak in term of economy.

Literature golden age have diffrent years. Military golden age another.

I think that economy was reason for US civil war and slavery was cause/excuse. In Spain things were different. Ideologies. Plus it was proxy war.

I think I know what would be reasons for new US civil war if that happened which I doubt.

Edited June 30, 2013 by the L

[DeWitz]

My own good posts are 110 and 118. Im not working in CTB. Neiher people who actually go there and get money for their "work." They spent millions and they only create one video spot per year. We have atleast 20 offical offices for tourism, its labirith...no one knows duties...nothing. It real mess. Sadly. If nature didnt gave us what we have we would be dead by now.

Croatian economy has HUGE potential. But in our history we have two golden ages. One during 19 century under Austria and one during 1970s during Yugoslavia. Ofcourse I speak in term of economy.

Literature golden age have diffrent years. Military golden age another.

I think that economy was reason for US civil war and slavery was cause/excuse. In Spain things were different. Ideologies. Plus it was proxy war.

I think I know what would be reasons for new US civil war if that happened which I doubt.

Croatia is also an ancient country that has endured a variety of geo-political injuries and survived, yes? We in the US seem to "do it to ourselves," such as in our Civil War. Let's hope you're right about there not being another one in the works. But our country is more polarized than at any other time since 1861-65; the Viet Nam/anti-war era was tense and happened with the nuclear war threat more at the forefront. Our dividing issues are domestic now, as they were back then with slavery/states' rights.

Edited June 30, 2013 by szentgyorgy