Is Demonic Possesion just Psychological ?

[ReaperS_ParadoX]

How do you know there is a "realm of god"? Religions imagine some such "realm" because our human imaginations lead us to imagine things exist in a way similar to how we exist. There is a "realm of humans" so there must be a "realm of god(s)". This process of thought is, however, quite useless when considering something that is conceptually non-human. Our paradigms do not apply to what we conceive of as "the divine", so I do not grant that concept any similarity to our own reality.

What others call 'god' might exist, or it might not. But if it does it is fundamentally non-human, so why do our religions all grant this concept of the divine a humanistic quality? It's wishful thinking, that's why.

So, you're not correct in your accusation above. It's not that I don't know, it's that no-one knows. And if no-one knows, then all that our religions tell us is true, is actually false. Since that includes 'demons', then the conclusion is - until we have evidence to the contrary - that reports of 'demons' are false and 'demons' don't exist.

As I said previously, I accept that others do not believe as I do. That does not mean I am not allowed to voice my opinion. That my opinion is strongly voiced, and possibly well-argued, has no bearing on this freedom. Also, a minor point but I do not "believe" in evolution. I accept the evidence provided that evolution happens, and the Theory proposed in science suggests a valid mechanism for it.

Fair enough, also every religion is not the same, so therein there are differences, between religions. Also I would say that I'm not overly religious. Do I believe that a god exists, yes I do.

And your right we all have our own opinions obviously you don't share mine. But it's like you said we each have the freedom to state our opinions

[SolarPlexus]

Show me life that we have contact with that has evolved anywhere else - and is 'non-material'.

If you can do that, then I will grant your argument some validity.

First , no one regards you as an "arbiter" here , to whom we display proof. Arrogant of you to take this falsely elevated position.

Until then it is nothing more than the gossamer clouds of your own imagination.

you claimed to appreciate that other people believe different things, but now you're just being dishonest and disrespectful

Edited March 15, 2014 by SolarPlexus

[SolarPlexus]

Promoting the idea of demons is evil.

Lol ? What ? Demons , Djinn, sleep paralysis entities and poltergeists are real , I think so. If you think that's promoting I guess there's nothing I can do about that. Maybe you should just agree to disagree

Edited March 15, 2014 by SolarPlexus

[Leonardo]

First , no one regards you as an "arbiter" here , to whom we display proof. Arrogant of you to take this falsely elevated position.

We are all the arbiters of our own opinions, SolarPlexus.

If someone wishes to convince me of something and perhaps modify my opinion, they need to present their case for doing so. For any debate to be constructive, this process of providing evidence for opinion should be encouraged, otherwise what should be constructive debate is nothing more than a meaningless argument consisting of "I'm right and you're wrong."

It is not arrogant to desire this, it is meaningful.

Lol ? What ? Demons , Djinn, sleep paralysis entities and poltergeists are real , I think so. If you think that's promoting I guess there's nothing I can do about that. Maybe you should just agree to disagree.

In the context of this thread "demons" are entities which can 'possess' people - presumably then to inflict harm upon them or, through them, on others.

It is my opinion that the continued promotion of this concept that certain behaviours are caused by "demonic possession" rather than a mundane, medically treatable, cause is harmful to those who are advised they are "possessed", and possibly those around them.

With the wealth of information available to anyone who has an internet connection, or access to a library or good bookstore, regarding the mundane causes of those behaviours, this continued promotion of "demons" and "demonic possession" can only be described as willfull ignorance for the purpose of promotion of a religion, or religious beliefs. This is an evil course of action taken not for the benefit of the one seeking treatment, but for the benefit of the belief being espoused.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Leonardo

[SolarPlexus]

No one wants to convince you leo, believe what you will. Just don't lie that you enjoy other views when you clearly do not

[Leonardo]

No one wants to convince you leo, believe what you will. Just don't lie that you enjoy other views when you clearly do not

I have never stated I "enjoy" all views held by others. I have stated I accept others have the right to believe as they will.

There are views on this subject I strongly disagree with, as is my right to do so. If you believe I have lied, or am lying, in anything I have posted here then please show me - and everyone else - where this lie occurred. If you cannot, then I would appreciate you not accuse me of lying.

[ambelamba]

I can tell you guys from my first hand experience that people who are into 'demonology' manipulate people for not-so-wholesome gains. In case of Catholic exorcists, they often make up stories about demonic possessions to scare people into submission to the Church.

In fact, Biblical concept of demonic possession didn't really exist in Asia before Christianity came in. Often spirit beings were known to be mischievous, but very few of them were known to be genuinely evil. The main reasons why they bug people is to be left alone or to beg food and booze. In that context, Asians kinda co-existed with these so-called 'demons'.

[willowdreams]

I think it is all in the mind.

The strength thing has been proven in the use of some drugs and also mental in other things as when you have mental problems you lose the part of your thought process that says 'stop'... and you just do.. impulse thing.

As for voice changing, well heck anyone can do that..

And the language thing? I read once (cannot remember where, probably online.. also heard it once on one of those documentary shows i find when skimming through tv late at nights) that the mind remembers everything it sees/experiences/hears.

I have no doubt in my mind that i probably know some spanish and french.. probably some latin too.. i mean how many shows have i seen in foreign with english subtitles, plus tv shows that has pple speaking in latin (come on, you know those horror demon possessed shows) and the english translation with it in text.

I have to wonder if when you are mentally ill, that memory is accessed that enables you to speak as if you really know the language? I mean lets face it, if you really believe you are possessed by demons and read enough or watched enough tv/movies.. or even had pple preach it to you, if you are mentally ill and convinced your mind you are possessed, who knows what you can possess in your mind when it comes to memories.

Cant be much more different then multiple personality disorders.

that's my opinion anyway

[White Crane Feather]

I think it is all in the mind.

The strength thing has been proven in the use of some drugs and also mental in other things as when you have mental problems you lose the part of your thought process that says 'stop'... and you just do.. impulse thing.

As for voice changing, well heck anyone can do that..

And the language thing? I read once (cannot remember where, probably online.. also heard it once on one of those documentary shows i find when skimming through tv late at nights) that the mind remembers everything it sees/experiences/hears.

I have no doubt in my mind that i probably know some spanish and french.. probably some latin too.. i mean how many shows have i seen in foreign with english subtitles, plus tv shows that has pple speaking in latin (come on, you know those horror demon possessed shows) and the english translation with it in text.

I have to wonder if when you are mentally ill, that memory is accessed that enables you to speak as if you really know the language? I mean lets face it, if you really believe you are possessed by demons and read enough or watched enough tv/movies.. or even had pple preach it to you, if you are mentally ill and convinced your mind you are possessed, who knows what you can possess in your mind when it comes to memories.

Cant be much more different then multiple personality disorders.

that's my opinion anyway

seriously I just tried to squash that bug.

[SolarPlexus]

me2 lol

[LEGIONS]

to the one that has not met with these spirits that move things,thump, scratch ,howl within your home ..you are fortunate ..should you encounter these events your mind will be changed ..

[MysticStrummer]

I have absolutely no idea whether there is some divine 'creator' behind the reality of the universe

Yet you can state with authority that demons don't exist…?

I like to think about this subject in terms of quantum physics. Einstein talked about parallel universes back in his time, and guys like Stephen Hawking still talk about them today. If they exist, who knows if and how these parallel universes can interact with ours, and given that these parallel universes could have their own laws of physics who knows what sort of creatures would evolve there? What we call "demons" could have nothing to do with religion. Maybe the religious idea of demons was based on them, or maybe the religious concept existed first and these things pretend to be demons simply for their own amusement.

In an infinite universe there are already infinite possibilities. Now multiply those by an infinite number of infinite universes. Now tell me ( fill in the blank ) doesn't exist and can't happen.

I'm not a religious person, but I know someone who went through an experience that certainly seemed to be what is described as demonic infestation/possession. When they told me what was going on I didn't jump to that conclusion. I told them there were physical, psychological, and spiritual possibilities to explain what was happening and that they should rule out the first two before deciding it was the third. The first two options were explored, nothing unusual was found, and eventually a series of exorcisms stopped what was going on. Whether that means religion saved the day, or that this person believed it did so they got better, or that whatever it was got bored and went away on it's own… I have no idea. All I know is that over time I became convinced that something very out of the ordinary was happening.

As for the title of the thread, I don't think it's an either/or situation. There are definitely people who think they are possessed but aren't, but I also believe that there are people who think and fear they may be going insane when in fact they are being tormented by something that at least fits the description of "demon".

[XenoFish]

Only way I'd be convinced of demonic possession is if someone was crawling on the ceiling. I think it's purely in the individuals head. Considering how "magic words" dispel the possession.

[Leonardo]

Yet you can state with authority that demons don't exist…?

Yes, given the plethora of evidence that reports of "demonic possession" are nothing of the sort, but are psychological issues misdiagnosed.

I like to think about this subject in terms of quantum physics.

Which pretty much invalidates anything further you have to argue in favour of the possibility of 'demons', but I'll add that the possibility of 'other universes' does not imply that "anything might exist" nor does it imply that there is any possible means of 'connecting' between separate universes.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Leonardo

[Use your brain]

Hey guys I just made an account, I been a fan of this site for some time now and thought it was about time to start chipping in my 2 cents.

I believe that 95-99% of possession is just some form of psychological and/or physical illness. I am however unaware of any mental or physical condition that would cause 11 year old mexican girls to know dead languages, or small tribes from all parts of the world to have the same names for demons. Now it isn't just 1 case in Mexico where a child has starting spouting off dead langauges, and even some of these could be labled as mental illness if there was any way of the person being predisposed to the language before hand. I chose this one because there is no way of the girl that I saw having any way of knowing Latin (forwards and backwards) or Hebrew.

This brings me to my second point, there is a select group of demons who are known all over the world, although the names are not spelled the same, they are all pronounced exactly the same. This is something that can't be passed off as just coincidence. The problem with all this is getting the ever sought after proof, as even when videos do arise people are happy just to pass them off as fake. There are two main reasons that I can think of as to why that is ( well 3 as I do think you should be skeptical ) and those are either they are afraid of the unknown, as demons are a fairly scary thing by nature, or the simple fact that if they admit that demons exist, then they would have to believe in God. Since you can't have one without the other, non believers have to fiercly fight against the fact that demons may be real, as this would shatter their entire belief system.

Well I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers on my first post, I just think that this is really one of the most important issues out there to discuss. Whether you are a believer or not, I wouldn't judge anyone based soley on that, and I am not here to preach. I am against most religion personally, as I think it just causes unneeded stress and violence, even though I do personally believe in God. Just remember that Bibles were written by kings, who are men, and most Bibles and religion were made in a time that to go against the king was the same as going against God, so they were mostly changed and altered to make sure that the king/ church came out smelling like roses

[Leonardo]

Hey guys I just made an account, I been a fan of this site for some time now and thought it was about time to start chipping in my 2 cents.

I believe that 95-99% of possession is just some form of psychological and/or physical illness. I am however unaware of any mental or physical condition that would cause 11 year old mexican girls to know dead languages, or small tribes from all parts of the world to have the same names for demons. Now it isn't just 1 case in Mexico where a child has starting spouting off dead langauges, and even some of these could be labled as mental illness if there was any way of the person being predisposed to the language before hand. I chose this one because there is no way of the girl that I saw having any way of knowing Latin (forwards and backwards) or Hebrew.

This brings me to my second point, there is a select group of demons who are known all over the world, although the names are not spelled the same, they are all pronounced exactly the same. This is something that can't be passed off as just coincidence. The problem with all this is getting the ever sought after proof, as even when videos do arise people are happy just to pass them off as fake. There are two main reasons that I can think of as to why that is ( well 3 as I do think you should be skeptical ) and those are either they are afraid of the unknown, as demons are a fairly scary thing by nature, or the simple fact that if they admit that demons exist, then they would have to believe in God. Since you can't have one without the other, non believers have to fiercly fight against the fact that demons may be real, as this would shatter their entire belief system.

Well I hope I didn't ruffle too many feathers on my first post, I just think that this is really one of the most important issues out there to discuss. Whether you are a believer or not, I wouldn't judge anyone based soley on that, and I am not here to preach. I am against most religion personally, as I think it just causes unneeded stress and violence, even though I do personally believe in God. Just remember that Bibles were written by kings, who are men, and most Bibles and religion were made in a time that to go against the king was the same as going against God, so they were mostly changed and altered to make sure that the king/ church came out smelling like roses

Hi there, Use your brain. Welcome to UM.

In what cases have people 'miraculously' begun to speak dead languages? Was this verified, or is it an urban legend that has grown from a far less extraordinary event?

It's not very conclusive simply stating "there have been cases where people have spoke dead languages they couldn't possibly have known", there needs to be some evidence this actually happened.

Likewise your reporting of demons cropping up with similar or identical names in places with no known cultural connection. Where is the evidence this has happened?

From what I have researched into the 'demon phenomenon', the whole subject is rife with little more than rumour, anecdote, poor investigation and exaggerations. There has not been a single verified case where the only possible explanation for any 'activity' reported would be supernatural.

Edited July 9, 2014 by Leonardo

[Use your brain]

Hi there, Use your brain. Welcome to UM.

In what cases have people 'miraculously' begun to speak dead languages? Was this verified, or is it an urban legend that has grown from a far less extraordinary event?

It's not very conclusive simply stating "there have been cases where people have spoke dead languages they couldn't possibly have known", there needs to be some evidence this actually happened.

Likewise your reporting of demons cropping up with similar or identical names in places with no known cultural connection. Where is the evidence this has happened?

From what I have researched into the 'demon phenomenon', the whole subject is rife with little more than rumour, anecdote, poor investigation and exaggerations. There has not been a single verified case where the only possible explanation for any 'activity' reported would be supernatural.

You should do some research on the case in America in November 2011, it is the only case where the police even admitted to something demonic taking place. Two hospital workers and a psychiatrist were witnesses, and had to call in an emergency exorcism. The last I heard one of the hospital workers is still in a mental institution over this.

http://www.indystar....ammons/4892553/

Edit: I will have to dig up all the stuff I had on the one in Mexico that I was talking about, I have it stored on an old laptop somewhere.

Also thank you for the welcome, I'm glad to be here.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Use your brain

[quiXilver]

mounting evidence suggests that fundamentalist thinking is a form of mental illness...

[Frank Merton]

If you are sitting alone quietly wathching TV or playing a game or whatever and out of the blue a voice says your name clear but not overly loud, and you look around to see who it is, and there is no one, it freaks you out. The obvious thought is ghost or demon or something, but really, now.

Some of us have that condition. Probably all of us to some degree. Sometimes our brain manufactures sounds that our ears didn't hear. It comes from the close connection between hearing and thoughts. Our brain constantly chatters with itself unless you quiet it down, and every now and then something doesn't work quite right and the hearing pathways are fooled into thinking some of this chatter is incoming sound, and proceeds to generate the sound qualia or experience we normally experience as sound. Odds are it will interpret "sounds" as your name -- that is an important set of sounds it must always be on the alert for.

Of course it "sounds" like it is coming from outside, and people just won't consider that it is really self originated.

[Leonardo]

You should do some research on the case in America in November 2011, it is the only case where the police even admitted to something demonic taking place. Two hospital workers and a psychiatrist were witnesses, and had to call in an emergency exorcism. The last I heard one of the hospital workers is still in a mental institution over this.

http://www.indystar....ammons/4892553/

Edit: I will have to dig up all the stuff I had on the one in Mexico that I was talking about, I have it stored on an old laptop somewhere.

Also thank you for the welcome, I'm glad to be here.

I have read quite a bit about the Latoya Ammons case, it has been discussed in several threads here as well. There is nothing in that case which presents a difficulty in assigning a mundane, psychological, explanation rather than resorting to a supernatural one. That a few people, regardless their profession, make anecdotal claims of supernatural activity is no justification for assuming those claims are valid.

Similarly, your claim you "heard" a hospital worker involved is currently undergoing psychiatric treatment has no weight without evidence that is actually the case.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I stated the phenomenon is rife with speculation, anecdote, unevidenced claims and exaggeration.

[Use your brain]

I have read quite a bit about the Latoya Ammons case, it has been discussed in several threads here as well. There is nothing in that case which presents a difficulty in assigning a mundane, psychological, explanation rather than resorting to a supernatural one. That a few people, regardless their profession, make anecdotal claims of supernatural activity is no justification for assuming those claims are valid.

Similarly, your claim you "heard" a hospital worker involved is currently undergoing psychiatric treatment has no weight without evidence that is actually the case.

This is exactly what I was referring to when I stated the phenomenon is rife with speculation, anecdote, unevidenced claims and exaggeration.

"There is nothing in that case which presents a difficulty in assigning a mundane, psychological, explanation rather than resorting to a supernatural one. That a few people, regardless their profession, make anecdotal claims of supernatural activity is no justification for assuming those claims are valid."

I agree with this, and so did the people that were investigating it. That is until things started to happen that could not be explained, and even the psychiatrist was a witness so that pretty much makes what you were saying non valid.

"Similarly, your claim you "heard" a hospital worker involved is currently undergoing psychiatric treatment has no weight without evidence that is actually the case."

When I say I "heard" I meant saw evidence, now I haven't gone as far as to dig up the mans name and check that with mental help establishments in the area, which in itself would be a nightmare because of the patient confidentiality. At the same time though, that seems like a job for you as I am not the one doubting the story, or the exsistance of demonic forces.

[Leonardo]

At the same time though, that seems like a job for you as I am not the one doubting the story, or the exsistance of demonic forces.

Well, it is you who made the claim. Until you can provide evidence for that claim it remains merely an anecdote and so has no validity as an argument for supernatural activity.

I'm not going to do your work for you.

[FollowTheTrail]

Well, in my view it's only in the individual's mind. My opinion (and my opinion only, no scientifical proof ) is that all those symptoms referred to as ''demonic possesion'' is just a type of Schizophrenia, it's all about losing one's senses and acting insane. I think it's more of a state of mind.

Although being a Christian myself, i believe that everything about demonic possesion (and some other things as well) is just a making of Church as a matter of ''controlling'' the people (based on the people's phobias and fears makes someone easier to manipulate them). But, that's a long discussion isn't it?

Certain thing is, there is no proof that demons do or don't exist, so i'm not throwing anything off the table. I'm just saying my point of view. Only thing i know is that i'm not entirely trust the Church and that's a bit of a paradox, i must admit!

[Use your brain]

Well, in my view it's only in the individual's mind. My opinion (and my opinion only, no scientifical proof ) is that all those symptoms referred to as ''demonic possesion'' is just a type of Schizophrenia, it's all about losing one's senses and acting insane. I think it's more of a state of mind.

Although being a Christian myself, i believe that everything about demonic possesion (and some other things as well) is just a making of Church as a matter of ''controlling'' the people (based on the people's phobias and fears makes someone easier to manipulate them). But, that's a long discussion isn't it?

Certain thing is, there is no proof that demons do or don't exist, so i'm not throwing anything off the table. I'm just saying my point of view. Only thing i know is that i'm not entirely trust the Church and that's a bit of a paradox, i must admit!

If you were the most evil person in the universe where would you hide? I would be at the top of the church, just my 2 cents.

[SaraT]

I don't know if possession is ultimately real, but I think it has to do with a person's faith. I don't necessarily mean religious faith, but faith in the possibility that such entities--if they even exist--are greater or more in control of us than we are.