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applegrove

I Don't Understand both sides...

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:) Just did a whole page on this and deleted it. HA! Don't think anyone wanted to hear it all anyways I kind of went on and on.

Okay I will make this shorter.

I used to be republican can't see myself that way anymore after all the hate they feel towards Gay marriage and other issues that bug me, I can't agree with democratic views either because they seem to be as closed minded about many issues as republicans are.

I want to know why both sides seem to be blindly close minded about issues yet call each other the close minded ones.

I understand the point in fighting for gay marriage, if a couple is living together they should have rights as a spouse regardless of sex.

I do not understand the point in abortion wars, because we live in a modern age and unwanted pregnancy is easy to avoid, I can even agree for the morning after pill in case of emergency or rape. Instead of fighting for the right to terminate a life, why not fight for availability of contraceptives and education for women?

Please don't attack me for having a different view on abortion than you, My question is why do some people (smart, logical people) fight for this right so fervently? I really want to see this from both sides, but is seems so archaic. Unwanted pregnancy should not happen today, and when they do killing the baby seems extreme in my opinion.

On a lighter note: To make both political parties happy, Make gay marriage legal, and abortion illegal, then let the gay families adopt all the unwanted babies. lol :)

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Maybe your Libertarian, look in to it

all i got to say :tu:

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The problem with making abortion illegal - is all the people who fall through the cracks.

Some examples

- Young sexually and morally immature teenagers experimenting and being overcome by their hormones.

- Those with chemical imbalances or mental illness who find themselves through lack of capacity to judge situations correctly, pregnant but incapable of dealing with the process of pregnancy.

- Those with medical conditions that make pregnancy life threatening to them.

- Rape victims, not all will come forward immediately through misplaced shame but may be forced to act and face what has happened to them only when they discover they are pregnant as a result.

Having said that, I entirely agree that in each of these cases we can change human behaviour and prevent pregnancy becoming an issue - the morning after pill is by far the most obvious solution for many situations and has the added advantage of being discrete.

I hope we keep up the tension so that the imperative is to change behaviours and avoid the volatile hotbed of dealing with abortion or carrying through with an unwanted pregnancy but criminalizing abortion will cost lives too, as the back alley abortionists will not only remove the baby but risk harming the mother.

The tension is good and important we need to evolve beyond the need for the entire conversation and we will if we keep addressing the issues surrounding it all.

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Yes, the mental illness side is not one I considered. There is a woman in my town who ends up pregnant every few years, she is clearly mentally handicapped and I think the person who got her in the state should be jailed, but who knows who it is... meanwhile her babies end up in the system. I think she is "fixed" now and will not end up pregnant again, but there are a lot of human rights issues pertaining to forcing someone to take birth control, or taking away their reproductive rights when it is known that they cannot take care of children. Seems like a slippery slope where good intentions can turn into a human rights mess.

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I have a tough moral time with laws criminilizing abortion. I would very much like to see abortions disappear -- especially late-term, since it seems reasonable to say that here we have a child. Birth is an arbitrary point, and not satisfying as a demarcation between human life and foetus.

But should having an abortion be a criminal matter? I view two separate issues -- moral decisions and legal decisions. We each make our own moral decisions and live with whatever consequences ensue. Society, as represented by government, makes legal decisions.

I have serious qualms about government making legal decisions on moral grounds. I can't say that this should never happen, but I can't think of something where I would support it. Government should make decisions on pragmatic grounds -- what works best. Here it is plain that criminalizing abortions cause a great deal of harm -- that in the end society works better if abortion alternatives are provided but abortions are allowed.

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I can see how someone would not want it criminalized yet not be fighting for abortion necessarily. Than is understandable to me.

I think the government is way too involved in social and moral issues, but it keeps the masses from worrying about real issues if they are distracted by social issues.

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Dialogue dialogue it is what we need! We can't keep sacrificing dialogue and solutions for votes or our love of fighting and bipartisanship and lines in the sand.

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Maybe your Libertarian, look in to it

all i got to say :tu:

Right, but a true libertarian would not limit personal liberties, abortion would be one of said rights to women. I don't agree with the current system myself, how you couldn't know that you're twenty weeks pregnant and when finding out decide to get an abortion is beyond me. To be honest, how many women actually do get them at that stage?

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Gay rights will eventually become the norm, abortion will never be settled though.

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Right, but a true libertarian would not limit personal liberties, abortion would be one of said rights to women. I don't agree with the current system myself, how you couldn't know that you're twenty weeks pregnant and when finding out decide to get an abortion is beyond me. To be honest, how many women actually do get them at that stage?

Some might see it that way. Others might say that defending the unborn is protecting thier liberties. The right to life. You cant be for liberty, and not individual responcibility. Least thats the way I see it. I dont think I defend the unborn at the sake of liberty at all.

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Some might see it that way. Others might say that defending the unborn is protecting thier liberties. The right to life. You cant be for liberty, and not individual responcibility. Least thats the way I see it. I dont think I defend the unborn at the sake of liberty at all.

I posted a careful message about the difference between the moral and the legal question of abortion. I take it you have just posted some slogans without reading what was posted before.

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I wasnt responding to you Frank.

Besides, I think you can make a very good case for legislation against the MURDER of unborn children. We put people away for far less then that everyday.

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What if the pregnant women will die? If she does not, then both her and the baby will die.The problem with religion it wants to control people

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What about the cases where contraception (birth Control) fails? You don't know it fails right away, you only find out after you become pregnant. It happened to a friend of mine. She was taking the pill, was not taking any antibiotics and she ended up becoming pregnant. She was in the 3% of people who's Pill fails. What about those people? Obviously it is an unwanted pregnancy. Not all will want to have the child (for various reasons). My friend decided to fallow through with the pregnancy simple because she is financially stable.

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What if the pregnant women will die? If she does not, then both her and the baby will die.The problem with religion it wants to control people

Why are you bringing religion into this? Of course there should be acceptions. Problem is most abortions are used for birth control, with the majority of women who have them, have at least 2, and several up to 5. We are slaughtering millions who should have never been conceived to begin with.

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Posted (edited)

Right, but a true libertarian would not limit personal liberties, abortion would be one of said rights to women. I don't agree with the current system myself, how you couldn't know that you're twenty weeks pregnant and when finding out decide to get an abortion is beyond me. To be honest, how many women actually do get them at that stage?

well abortion is actually the one issue that libertarians dont all agree with each other on. They normally avoide the issue by saying states rights ad let the state decide

Edited by spartan max2
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I think it oversimplifies it to cast both issues in a Republican/Democrat light.

Take gay marriage for example - until just recently, it was voted down in some of the most Left leaning and gay friendly states in the country. It wasn't the Republicans that made that happen. Folks seem to forget that there is a Christian Left that is as fundamentalist as the Christian Right - why do you think Obama did so much dancing around the subject until he got reelected in November?

As for abortion, the abortion lobby is no different than the gun lobby - any compromise is a slippery slope that will lead to eventual prohibition even though the vast majority of Americans that are in favor of abortion also support sensible limitations to its availability (no abortion after a certain number of weeks, etc.).

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I don't know that some restrictions on abortion would necessarily lead in the end to a total ban. In fact I strongly doubt it.

Still, until the religious moralizing stops and they desist from calling it murder, which it isn't, I would oppose any restrictions whatsoever.

In a society where this can be approached more rationally, late-term abortions require medical approval and consultation with the woman before they are carried out. It is not the job of the state to enforce morality, but it is its job to enforce public health and safety. Often the two have the same result, but not always.

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Posted (edited)

Your never going to be able to outlaw or ban abortion. You can't legislate morality. So, what we need to do, is put a ban on abortion at so many weeks, except in cases of medical emergencies, and make sure women have access to contraception. With all the contraception options out there, the fact that some women are having two or three abortions, is just stupidity at it's finest.

I'd rather a woman take a Plan B pill, then them have an abortion 6 weeks later....

On that note, yesterday, as me and my husband were driving to town, there was a sign next to a church, that said, God Doesn't Have A Plan B..... :angry:

Really stupid, if you ask me.....

Edited by Kowalski

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On that note, yesterday, as me and my husband were driving to town, there was a sign next to a church, that said, God Doesn't Have A Plan B..... :angry:

Really stupid, if you ask me.....

That is kind of stupid. Wasn't plan B and beyond smiting down cities, causing a great flood, in general wiping man almost out and starting over, sending his only son down? Or if those weren't other letter plans and strictly in a pill sense, why would God need a plan B, who is he going to get impregnated by?

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For abortion, could be not compromise and say, after X weeks (make it 16 so - 4 months), it then becomes illegal to have said abortion but before that it's ok? (Barring extreme medical exemptions and a rec from 3 doctors or the such). Personally I am not against abortions, I just think it should be harder to get one...(again barring things like rape, incest, medical reasons, etc). :)

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Such a compromise would be better than a complete ban, but I don't like criminalizing such things that really should be entirely up to the woman. I would prefer just putting procedures in to give the woman alternatives and help.

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I don´t want to wade into the abortion issue, because there is no perfect solution, and somebody will always be left unhappy.

But to me, it seems clear that both extremes are wrong:

Both the idea of "souls in a test tube" (protection of life from moment of conception) and the the concept of "late term abortion" (basically, murdering a fully developed baby) seem absurd to me.

Any government will have to decide a term limit until which abortions are legal, and from which they are not legal. There is no other way. And I don´t think that should be so difficult. We also have arbitrary legal points, from which you are allowed to drive a car, to vote, to drink alcohol, to retire. The same should apply here.

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I don't know that infanticide can be considered murder, so I'm fairly sure that late term abortion isn't. By that time, according to Buddhist belief, the baby has been infected by some dead person's spirit, which makes it a being, but it can start again real easy.

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I don't know that infanticide can be considered murder, so I'm fairly sure that late term abortion isn't.

Infanticide is not murder? In which country? In what absurd mindset?

Here in Japan, they used to call it "family suicide" when some guy murdered his family and then killed himself, but now they have finally stopped this lunatic euphemism and are calling correctly "murder/suicide".

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