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Ashotep

Hundreds of Thousands protest in Egypt

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I just watched Obama's reply to a question about Egypt and the American administration's response to the demonstrations in the press conference...I am stunned! Obama should be as concerned about the use of live ammo and explosive devices on demonstrators just as he is concerned about sexual harassment, but he mentioned the latter (in a rather after-thought fashion) but totally failed to mention the first. He does not seem to grasp that what is happening now is a grass root movement led by the people, not opposition parties. Opposition leaders are trying to catch up with the street not the other way round! Any negotiations or agreements between Mursi and the opposition parties will be moot unless they result in decisions that meet the demands of the people. What kind of advisors and info gathering experts are aiding Obama?

His answer was hesitant, unsatisfactory, and frankly an exercise in desperate (and futile) wishful thinking. Someone should advise him that it is high time to change his position vis-à-vis the MB.

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According to here: http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/01/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

The demonstrators say they have collected 17 million signatures -- roughly 4 million more than what won Morsy the presidency -- and all of them call for Morsy to go.

If it's a true democracy, shouldn't they listen to the will of the people?

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It seems the military is dictating things again, last time they had power everyone was against them. There seems to be confusion who is leading the protests

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It seems the military is dictating things again, last time they had power everyone was against them. There seems to be confusion who is leading the protests

I had the impression that the protests were a popular groundswell without any structure to speak of...different cities, same goal - MURSI GONE!
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It seems the military is dictating things again, last time they had power everyone was against them. There seems to be confusion who is leading the protests

The protesters are wanting their backing and it looks like they are going to get it. The Military has given Morsi 48 hours to answer the demands of the protesters. If he doesn't he may get get thrown out by the military.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57591775/egypt-military-gives-president-morsi-48-hours-to-reach-agreement-with-opposition-or-face-political-transition/

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What the hell are they protesting for? Don't they understand that Obama set them free???

They're enjoying freedom and protesting their democratically elected leader that they'd eventually get tear gassed for doing here in the US. The US media is suggesting they're considering the possibility of the military "undemocratically" removing Morsi from power, though the mob in Tahrir Square is as democratic as it gets. Many seem to think that choosing a government must be codified, institutionalized, formalized and scheduled in order to be democracy, but that's not so. Mob rule may be unrepresentative of everyone's opinion but what democracy isn't? It's just messier when people are driven rather than cowed. Hopefully Morsi will cave in to the peoples' demands before Egypt is engulfed in war.

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They're enjoying freedom and protesting their democratically elected leader that they'd eventually get tear gassed for doing here in the US. The US media is suggesting they're considering the possibility of the military "undemocratically" removing Morsi from power, though the mob in Tahrir Square is as democratic as it gets. Many seem to think that choosing a government must be codified, institutionalized, formalized and scheduled in order to be democracy, but that's not so. Mob rule may be unrepresentative of everyone's opinion but what democracy isn't? It's just messier when people are driven rather than cowed. Hopefully Morsi will cave in to the peoples' demands before Egypt is engulfed in war.

They were tear gassed for protesting before, 70 tons were used including those famous 140,000 canisters, but that is beside the point.

I too do not understand the insistence of some on using the 'democratically elected president' excuse. Assuming that elections were unrigged, the ballot box does not grant any ruler unlimited free mandate to recant the oath he took, break the law of the land, persecute opposition, indulge in nepotism, blatantly lie, run the country to the ground in less than a year...etc. Nixon was almost impeached for a lot less than what Mursi and the MB committed. Elections are like a contract between the ruler and the ruled, when its conditions are breached and the ruler is clearly unable to shoulder the responsibilities of the 'contract', then said contract must be nullified even before its stated term. One does not wait until full scale catastrophe takes place.

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I just watched Obama's reply to a question about Egypt and the American administration's response to the demonstrations in the press conference...I am stunned! Obama should be as concerned about the use of live ammo and explosive devices on demonstrators just as he is concerned about sexual harassment, but he mentioned the latter (in a rather after-thought fashion) but totally failed to mention the first. He does not seem to grasp that what is happening now is a grass root movement led by the people, not opposition parties. Opposition leaders are trying to catch up with the street not the other way round! Any negotiations or agreements between Mursi and the opposition parties will be moot unless they result in decisions that meet the demands of the people. What kind of advisors and info gathering experts are aiding Obama?

His answer was hesitant, unsatisfactory, and frankly an exercise in desperate (and futile) wishful thinking. Someone should advise him that it is high time to change his position vis-à-vis the MB.

The sad part is he's probably following his advisors to a tee. The whole world knows the extreme Islamic ideology the MB follows, similar to the one their brothers in Riyadh follow. If the US Administration was against associating themselves with similar elements, they would have made it clear from the start. It's not that they've been so gullible and naive to not know any better otherwise I'd be asking the Central Intelligence Agency some serious questions if I was him. Instead they've been supportive of the MB from the outset. What does that tell you and who do you think are really pulling the strings?

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They were tear gassed for protesting before, 70 tons were used including those famous 140,000 canisters, but that is beside the point.

I too do not understand the insistence of some on using the 'democratically elected president' excuse. Assuming that elections were unrigged, the ballot box does not grant any ruler unlimited free mandate to recant the oath he took, break the law of the land, persecute opposition, indulge in nepotism, blatantly lie, run the country to the ground in less than a year...etc. Nixon was almost impeached for a lot less than what Mursi and the MB committed. Elections are like a contract between the ruler and the ruled, when its conditions are breached and the ruler is clearly unable to shoulder the responsibilities of the 'contract', then said contract must be nullified even before its stated term. One does not wait until full scale catastrophe takes place.

Is there a provision for impeachment in your Constitution?

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Well now that Spring has come and gone for them - is it the Summer of their discontent, or ... is winter coming?

It seems that every move the people of the middle east make to liberate themselves some radical islamist group jumps in to fill the void and everything ends up twice as bad as it was before - it's like a melting pot of religiously zealous insanity.

Not much of a choice for the local populace when you have the Saudi Sunni's tentacles, backed by the US, stretching out on the one side and the Shia's in Iran, backed by the Russians and ready to pounce from the other side.

Both Saudi's and Iranians follow strict Islamic guidelines, so my prediction is there's not much hope for the moderates in the near future until the stranglehold these two nations have on the ME diminishes.

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I must say Obama does seem to be an a hopeless box and clueless, and I'm not sure he is not at least somewhat responsible for things getting that way.

It reminds me of the French revolution: once the people learn they can overthrow a regime by hitting the streets, they do it over and over until some strongman comes to power who isn't afraid to use cannon shot on them.

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once the people learn they can overthrow a regime by hitting the streets, they do it over and over until some strongman comes to power who isn't afraid to use cannon shot on them.

Or they take to the streets after they have a strongman who does *see Syria*

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Syria isn't following the pattern of the French revolution because they were brutal from the start. That seems not that hard to understand.

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Syria isn't following the pattern of the French revolution because they were brutal from the start. That seems not that hard to understand.

For every similarity, a difference! It's like oui oui magic!

The patterns damnit, the patterns!

nas4.jpg

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Syria isn't following the pattern of the French revolution because they were brutal from the start. That seems not that hard to understand.

Even though the British gave Syria to the French

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Also Obama wants him to listen to the demands of the protesters

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Posted (edited)

The sad part is he's probably following his advisors to a tee. The whole world knows the extreme Islamic ideology the MB follows, similar to the one their brothers in Riyadh follow. If the US Administration was against associating themselves with similar elements, they would have made it clear from the start. It's not that they've been so gullible and naive to not know any better otherwise I'd be asking the Central Intelligence Agency some serious questions if I was him. Instead they've been supportive of the MB from the outset. What does that tell you and who do you think are really pulling the strings?

The US administration has overtly and covertly supported and aided the ascent of the MB to power. It is a very well known fact that delegates of the MB met with officials in Washington about 14 times during the early days of the 2011 revolution; each of Mursi's major 'grasp for power' moves was preceded by a visit to Cairo by H. Clinton. Obama's response in the press conference says it all, it is very telling that he chose to criticize the opposition but ignored the use of lethal violance by MB. Whatever is going on in Syria has been planned with a prominent role for the MB to play, remember that recently an MB leader in Cairo announced that they are willing to send 12000 fighters to Syria. The present revolution threw a wrench in the works, the plan had ignored factor X, that the Egyptian people would rise against the misrule of the MB, that they are not willing to be the dispensable collateral damage. The present US policy is viewed with deep distrust in Egypt, Obama may have gained allies with the MB in power, but he is losing the Egyptian people and they are the only 'card' that lasts. It's a real pity!

Edited by meryt-tetisheri
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This is how the US policy is viewed in Egypt:

https://www.facebook.com/ikhwan.kazeboon

Nagla El Baz wrote:

"Before the world wakes up to the sudden discovery that Morsi is no longer the legitimate president of Egypt, I'd like to tell you my friends that for some reason your media has kept the truth hidden from you. Egypt is not a divided country. Liberals are NOT a minority in Egypt. We have been trying to get rid of the Muslim Brotherhood rule by all possible means. They do not respresent ...our identity nor our religion. They only seized an opportunity, a moment of total chaos, when the state was at its weakest and the people were in desperate need for stability, while there was no other organized political body on the scene.

A whole year of misery under this oppressive Islamist regime that was racing to destroy our civil state and restrict our human rights by imposing a constitution which belonged to the Middle Ages, left us with no choice but to rebel.

Millions took to the streets demading President Mohamed Morsi to step down immediately after he had ignorned our voices through this whole year in favor of his Gama'a, the Muslim Brotherhood.

During this year, President Obama's administration and the American Ambassador in Egypt, Mrs. Patterson, were literally shoving the Brotherhood down our throats, giving us signals that if we do not allow President Morsi to finish his term and if we ever think about rebelling and seeking the protection of our Armed Forces as shelter against the terrorist groups who flourished all over Egypt during his rule, we would be messing with "democracy"! And Mrs. Patterson made it very clear on several occasions that the US will not support any attempt to mess with this so-called democracy. They left us to suffer and imposed a media blackout on what is taking place in Egypt, always describing the opposition as weak and saying that the MB enjoys a legitimacy supported by the majority of Egyptians, which was totally false and they knew it.

This attempt to force a single version of democracy in the Middle East has proven to be nothing but disasterous so far. God knows what is on this administration's mind, but whatever their plan is, it is not working and it is not making the world we live in any safer.

This is just my humble attempt to let you know what the hell is going on in Egypt and how you were being kept in the dark about it.

We are a civilzed nation. We value the USA role when it is for the good. However, our experience with the current US administration and the international media during these past two years has left us extremely frustrated and skeptic."

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Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:

Anyway I hope the violence on both sides come to an end and that the MB clues in that taking a hardline is a massive stupid move and some kind of peaceful resolution can be put into place. Maybe once this crisis passes Egypt can get some much needed stability and cooperation between the various factions within the country. Looks like the opposition groups are starting to unite for fully, though time will tell how long that lasts. Sounds like the police forces are siding with the military and the protesters so if Morsi tries for a fight I don't think it will be a long one.

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This is how the US policy is viewed in Egypt:

https://www.facebook.com/ikhwan.kazeboon

Nagla El Baz wrote:

"Before the world wakes up to the sudden discovery that Morsi is no longer the legitimate president of Egypt, I'd like to tell you my friends that for some reason your media has kept the truth hidden from you. Egypt is not a divided country. Liberals are NOT a minority in Egypt. We have been trying to get rid of the Muslim Brotherhood rule by all possible means. They do not respresent ...our identity nor our religion. They only seized an opportunity, a moment of total chaos, when the state was at its weakest and the people were in desperate need for stability, while there was no other organized political body on the scene.

A whole year of misery under this oppressive Islamist regime that was racing to destroy our civil state and restrict our human rights by imposing a constitution which belonged to the Middle Ages, left us with no choice but to rebel.

Millions took to the streets demading President Mohamed Morsi to step down immediately after he had ignorned our voices through this whole year in favor of his Gama'a, the Muslim Brotherhood.

During this year, President Obama's administration and the American Ambassador in Egypt, Mrs. Patterson, were literally shoving the Brotherhood down our throats, giving us signals that if we do not allow President Morsi to finish his term and if we ever think about rebelling and seeking the protection of our Armed Forces as shelter against the terrorist groups who flourished all over Egypt during his rule, we would be messing with "democracy"! And Mrs. Patterson made it very clear on several occasions that the US will not support any attempt to mess with this so-called democracy. They left us to suffer and imposed a media blackout on what is taking place in Egypt, always describing the opposition as weak and saying that the MB enjoys a legitimacy supported by the majority of Egyptians, which was totally false and they knew it.

This attempt to force a single version of democracy in the Middle East has proven to be nothing but disasterous so far. God knows what is on this administration's mind, but whatever their plan is, it is not working and it is not making the world we live in any safer.

This is just my humble attempt to let you know what the hell is going on in Egypt and how you were being kept in the dark about it.

We are a civilzed nation. We value the USA role when it is for the good. However, our experience with the current US administration and the international media during these past two years has left us extremely frustrated and skeptic."

Good luck, egyptions. You will succssed. Chose your president then chose your friends, do not let them chose you. Important is what is best for you not what is best for a foreign leader.

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Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:

LOL and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise. :yes: You wouldn't want to suffer such a trauma. You don't want to wake up one day and realise the world is a naughty place with devious politicians who have caused the death of millions through improper interventionism just so they can get an edge on their opponents.

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Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:

Anyway I hope the violence on both sides come to an end and that the MB clues in that taking a hardline is a massive stupid move and some kind of peaceful resolution can be put into place. Maybe once this crisis passes Egypt can get some much needed stability and cooperation between the various factions within the country. Looks like the opposition groups are starting to unite for fully, though time will tell how long that lasts. Sounds like the police forces are siding with the military and the protesters so if Morsi tries for a fight I don't think it will be a long one.

I think that mischaracterizes things we've been discussing - at least to a certain extent. Obama did not CAUSE the revolt. He DID help the MB take advantage of the aftermath and help Mursi become firmly entrenched in power as he might otherwise NOT have done to such an extent (if at all).
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Surprising amount of whining about Obama in a thread about Egypt. Personally I believe it was the Egyptians, not Obama, who removed Mubarak from power and then elected the MB to form the current government. And now it looks like it will be the Egyptians, again without Obama telling them what to think and do, are seeking another change in government. But hey something is happening in the Middle East so it must be an evil American plot right? :rolleyes:

No, wrong! I am not the kind of person who looks for scapegoats and excuses to hang my mistakes, and I am definitely not a whiner, I have more backbone than that! The opinions I expressed here are not only mine but are shared by the majority of Egyptians. The US did actively interfer in the Egyptian political process with the aim of propping up the MB.

Have you been closely following the news of the ME? You can research the facts and timeline of all the events I mentioned in my previous post; you can also check all the statements made by Ambassador Patterson regarding the internal politics of Egypt which raised the hackles of all opposition politicians. If you have an alternative interpretation of the statements, the secretive meetings, the timing of Clinton's visits and how it coincided with Mursi's disasterous decisions, or General Dempsey's call to the Egyptian army chief just after the ultimatum was given to Mursi, then kindly offer them for discussion.

"At a meeting with political parties and NGOs on Tuesday, Patterson said the US would not welcome the return of the army to power as an alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood."

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/74413/Egypt/Politics-/Egypt-opposition-group-criticises-blatant-interfer.aspx

Would you call such a statement neutral?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4399520,00.html

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323689204578571670191617416.html

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/06/28/egyptians-protesting-morsi-accuse-u-s-government-of-supporting-islamists/

Six people were killed today in one suburb of Cairo, if Egyptians were passive whiners looking for a scapegoat, they would not be risking their lives on the streets.

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