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Ashotep

Hundreds of Thousands protest in Egypt

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Egypt -- Teaching the US what freedom is since 2011.

I can't believe that Obama just warned the military that Egypt is going to lose the US if it doesn't respect the political process and hump Morsi's leg.

The principle of non-interventionism in US foreign policy was scoffed at when we were propping up that dictator Mubarak. But now that we're propping up someone meryt doesn't like, it's wrong. Making exceptions because something is politically agreeable in someone's opinion is exactly what allows the US to get away with this crap in the first place. When the shoe's on the other foot, suddenly it doesn't fit. But when you've got principle, the shoe never fits, period. Forget that 35 years of coddling our puppet, suddenly we're the champions of democracy again, hypocrites that we are.

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I have to say it does seem Morsi has lost legitimacy and should therefore resign to avoid bloodshed. What has been posted as representing Egyptian opinion above though probably only represents that particular anti-Morsi individual's opinion. There is little doubt he did win the election legitimatly (all elections have elements in them that can be questioned, but at the time international neutral opinion was that he had legitimately won). Overturning legitimately elected officials is sometimes necessary when they exceed their own legitimacy, but sheesh it is asking for no end of trouble.

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Posted (edited)

Egypt -- Teaching the US what freedom is since 2011.

I can't believe that Obama just warned the military that Egypt is going to lose the US if it doesn't respect the political process and hump Morsi's leg.

The principle of non-interventionism in US foreign policy was scoffed at when we were propping up that dictator Mubarak. But now that we're propping up someone meryt doesn't like, it's wrong. Making exceptions because something is politically agreeable in someone's opinion is exactly what allows the US to get away with this crap in the first place. When the shoe's on the other foot, suddenly it doesn't fit. But when you've got principle, the shoe never fits, period. Forget that 35 years of coddling our puppet, suddenly we're the champions of democracy again, hypocrites that we are.

Was the 'principle of non-interventionism' ever applied? Seriously Yamato? Do you really believe what you wrote? Coming from you who have always called for saving American tax dollars and criticizing American intervention in other countries' affairs, this post is surprising!

Whether it's Mubarak or Mursi, my position has always been SIDE WITH THE PEOPLE not the regime. Rulers come and go; the people are the only reliable staying power. Propping up any regime morally implicates those who are supporting it.

You are free to accept, reject, or disregard my opinion but I am not the only " that particular anti-Morsi individual" who voiced it, there are millions with similar opinion on the streets of Egypt now.

As for teaching the US about freedom, each people have the right to define and decide for themselves what kind of freedom they aspire to have in their country. This applies to Egypt as much as it does for the US. I was under the impression that you backed the idea of 'freedom' as a universal right.

Edited by meryt-tetisheri
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It was always going to end in tears for Morsi,anybody who thought the Military where ever going to sit back and let things develop are deluded.

The Middle East is probably now so Unstable that it isn't going to take much to start an all out war.

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Mursi is barely breathing sitting under all the barrels and swords pointing at his head from all sides ... he goes he dies ... he stay he will soon die ...

~

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America's unbelievably bad policy moves in Egypt by the regime in Washington As per the Corner http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/352604/utter-chaos-obama-administrations-egypt-policy-david-french

First, on May 10, 2013, the Obama administration
placed on American military aid to Egypt, freeing up $1.3 billion for the Muslim Brotherhood regime's military without the required showing that the "Government of Egypt is supporting the transition to civilian government, including holding free and fair elections and implementing policies to protect freedom of expression, association, and religion and due process of law."

In other words, the Morsi government could keep funding the military even as it brutally oppressed dissent, including Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian community.

Fast-forward to Monday, July 1, 2013. The corrupt, oppressive Muslim Brotherhood government had just faced what some were counting among the largest public protests in history.
. From the
Guardian
:

On Monday, the U.S. president, Barack Obama, indicated that Morsi had not yet lost his backing. "We don't make those decisions just by counting the number of heads in a protest march but we do make decisions based on whether or not a government is listening to the opposition, maintaining a free press, maintaining freedom of assembly, not using violence or intimidation, conducting fair and free elections," he said.

Wait, what? Do you not remember that you just waived those very same human rights requirements not even two months ago? How much could you possibly care about these basic liberties?

Now fast-forward to today, July 3, when we learn that the administration does actually care. From CNN:

Officials have also warned the Egyptian military that a military coup [against the Muslim Brotherhood] would trigger U.S. legislation cutting off all U.S. aid, which totals about $1.5 billion per year.

For those keeping score at home, the Obama administration waives human rights requirements when the Muslim Brotherhood is in power but then threatens to impose those very same waived requirements when the military — our decades-long ally within Egypt — threatens to assert control.

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America's unbelievably bad policy moves in Egypt by the regime in Washington As per the Corner http://www.nationalr...cy-david-french

First, on May 10, 2013, the Obama administration
placed on American military aid to Egypt, freeing up $1.3 billion for the Muslim Brotherhood regime's military without the required showing that the "Government of Egypt is supporting the transition to civilian government, including holding free and fair elections and implementing policies to protect freedom of expression, association, and religion and due process of law."

In other words, the Morsi government could keep funding the military even as it brutally oppressed dissent, including Egypt's embattled Coptic Christian community.

Fast-forward to Monday, July 1, 2013. The corrupt, oppressive Muslim Brotherhood government had just faced what some were counting among the largest public protests in history.
. From the
Guardian
:

On Monday, the U.S. president, Barack Obama, indicated that Morsi had not yet lost his backing. "We don't make those decisions just by counting the number of heads in a protest march but we do make decisions based on whether or not a government is listening to the opposition, maintaining a free press, maintaining freedom of assembly, not using violence or intimidation, conducting fair and free elections," he said.

Wait, what? Do you not remember that you just waived those very same human rights requirements not even two months ago? How much could you possibly care about these basic liberties?

Now fast-forward to today, July 3, when we learn that the administration does actually care. From CNN:

Officials have also warned the Egyptian military that a military coup [against the Muslim Brotherhood] would trigger U.S. legislation cutting off all U.S. aid, which totals about $1.5 billion per year.

For those keeping score at home, the Obama administration waives human rights requirements when the Muslim Brotherhood is in power but then threatens to impose those very same waived requirements when the military — our decades-long ally within Egypt — threatens to assert control.

The double standards of Obama just get bigger and bigger,along with his threat to arm the Islamist rebels in Syria.The Clowns are now running the Circus.

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The double standards of Obama just get bigger and bigger,along with his threat to arm the Islamist rebels in Syria.The Clowns are now running the Circus.

The idiots in this country gave this regime a second term and we are going to pay a huge price for it. Our kids are going to inherit a broken and disfunctional country because we allowed theeft to take over during the last 3 generations.

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LOL and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise. :yes: You wouldn't want to suffer such a trauma. You don't want to wake up one day and realise the world is a naughty place with devious politicians who have caused the death of millions through improper interventionism just so they can get an edge on their opponents.

:tu::yes:

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I have to say it does seem Morsi has lost legitimacy and should therefore resign to avoid bloodshed. What has been posted as representing Egyptian opinion above though probably only represents that particular anti-Morsi individual's opinion. There is little doubt he did win the election legitimatly (all elections have elements in them that can be questioned, but at the time international neutral opinion was that he had legitimately won). Overturning legitimately elected officials is sometimes necessary when they exceed their own legitimacy, but sheesh it is asking for no end of trouble.

Trouble that seems avoidable only if they are willing to live as slaves to an oppressive Islamist ideology... some troubles are worth it.

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I have to say it does seem Morsi has lost legitimacy and should therefore resign to avoid bloodshed. What has been posted as representing Egyptian opinion above though probably only represents that particular anti-Morsi individual's opinion. There is little doubt he did win the election legitimatly (all elections have elements in them that can be questioned, but at the time international neutral opinion was that he had legitimately won). Overturning legitimately elected officials is sometimes necessary when they exceed their own legitimacy, but sheesh it is asking for no end of trouble.

http://live.reuters.com/Event/World_News

Either what has been posted represents the opinion of more than this one particular person, or I am a member of a huge clone army :D

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Some photos from the Cairo protests that you won´t see in the NYT, on Reuters, on ABC, CNN, and the other big liberal mainstream media:

http://directorblue....e-protests.html

I did not want to offend any one here by posting these images and got slammed for it as a 'know it all' person. Thank you for posting them.

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Well Mursi is reportedly under house arrest. Tanks are rolling and the TV stations are being monitored closely. It's the MB's move....

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Posted (edited)

Some photos from the Cairo protests that you won´t see in the NYT, on Reuters, on ABC, CNN, and the other big liberal mainstream media:

http://directorblue....e-protests.html

Freakin' awesome! Thanks. Remember when the MSM was making the "Arab Spring" and Obama happening? The people over there know what Obama is doing and what side he is on even if the leftiss on this side of the pond don't.

Edited by Merc14

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I think that mischaracterizes things we've been discussing - at least to a certain extent. Obama did not CAUSE the revolt. He DID help the MB take advantage of the aftermath and help Mursi become firmly entrenched in power as he might otherwise NOT have done to such an extent (if at all).

How? Did he set the MB as the most organized opposition party in the aftermath of the first round of protests? Did he somehow trick Egyptians into voting for the wrong party during their elections? How did Obama cause the Egyptian people to select of their own free will a political party that they hated?

LOL and don't let anyone ever convince you otherwise. :yes: You wouldn't want to suffer such a trauma. You don't want to wake up one day and realise the world is a naughty place with devious politicians who have caused the death of millions through improper interventionism just so they can get an edge on their opponents.

:rolleyes: Lame. Did I say that at all? Oh wait, no I didn't. Rather I was commenting that the general view in the UM forums is that any and all American foreign policy is evil. Obama gives his support to that Arab Spring? UM members condemn him. Obama holds off his support for the current protests to see what happens? UM members condemn him. Basically no matter what Obama does certain members here will loudly proclaim that he, and by extension the US, is wrong and doing horrible things. And frankly such closed minded views and willful ignorance due to political bias is annoying and dumb.

No, wrong! I am not the kind of person who looks for scapegoats and excuses to hang my mistakes, and I am definitely not a whiner, I have more backbone than that! The opinions I expressed here are not only mine but are shared by the majority of Egyptians. The US did actively interfer in the Egyptian political process with the aim of propping up the MB.

Have you been closely following the news of the ME? You can research the facts and timeline of all the events I mentioned in my previous post; you can also check all the statements made by Ambassador Patterson regarding the internal politics of Egypt which raised the hackles of all opposition politicians. If you have an alternative interpretation of the statements, the secretive meetings, the timing of Clinton's visits and how it coincided with Mursi's disasterous decisions, or General Dempsey's call to the Egyptian army chief just after the ultimatum was given to Mursi, then kindly offer them for discussion.

"At a meeting with political parties and NGOs on Tuesday, Patterson said the US would not welcome the return of the army to power as an alternative to the Muslim Brotherhood."

http://english.ahram...t-interfer.aspx

Would you call such a statement neutral?

http://www.ynetnews....4399520,00.html

http://online.wsj.co...0191617416.html

http://www.algemeine...ting-islamists/

Six people were killed today in one suburb of Cairo, if Egyptians were passive whiners looking for a scapegoat, they would not be risking their lives on the streets.

Generally speaking when the military overthrows a democratically elected government it's a bad thing. In fact I remember that protests happening in Egypt because the military was dragging its feet about putting in elections and trying to give themselves more power. So when the Morsy was elected by Egyptians the US respected their choice and give him their support. Their view was that an elected leader, even though he wasn't what they were hoping for, was better than a military dictatorship. Egypt is an important ally for the US in the region so they needed to play nice as long he was in power. It's not pretty and it can be very distasteful but that's how international politics works and has always worked. The US has worked with people much worst than Morsy, however they were respecting the results of the Egyptian election. Would you have preferred that the US to flatly refuse to have anything to do with Morsy and only work with the opposition? Because as much as that might have been preferred by most parties that would still be messing with Egyptian internal politics. After all look at all the flak the US is getting from providing support to the Syrian opposition in the years before their civil war.

Egyptians are not whiners and I wish them all the best in setting up their country without any outside interference. Some UM members however...

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I think that under normal circumstances,that when the Military get Involved,It's usually a bad thing.In Egypt's case though the Military situation always worked.

Good Riddance to Morsi and Good luck to the people of Egypt.

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How? Did he set the MB as the most organized opposition party in the aftermath of the first round of protests? Did he somehow trick Egyptians into voting for the wrong party during their elections? How did Obama cause the Egyptian people to select of their own free will a political party that they hated?

:rolleyes: Lame. Did I say that at all? Oh wait, no I didn't. Rather I was commenting that the general view in the UM forums is that any and all American foreign policy is evil. Obama gives his support to that Arab Spring? UM members condemn him. Obama holds off his support for the current protests to see what happens? UM members condemn him. Basically no matter what Obama does certain members here will loudly proclaim that he, and by extension the US, is wrong and doing horrible things. And frankly such closed minded views and willful ignorance due to political bias is annoying and dumb.

Generally speaking when the military overthrows a democratically elected government it's a bad thing. In fact I remember that protests happening in Egypt because the military was dragging its feet about putting in elections and trying to give themselves more power. So when the Morsy was elected by Egyptians the US respected their choice and give him their support. Their view was that an elected leader, even though he wasn't what they were hoping for, was better than a military dictatorship. Egypt is an important ally for the US in the region so they needed to play nice as long he was in power. It's not pretty and it can be very distasteful but that's how international politics works and has always worked. The US has worked with people much worst than Morsy, however they were respecting the results of the Egyptian election. Would you have preferred that the US to flatly refuse to have anything to do with Morsy and only work with the opposition? Because as much as that might have been preferred by most parties that would still be messing with Egyptian internal politics. After all look at all the flak the US is getting from providing support to the Syrian opposition in the years before their civil war.

Egyptians are not whiners and I wish them all the best in setting up their country without any outside interference. Some UM members however...

Corp, I apologize that I cannot reply in full to the points you raised (need to rush pick up my son), but the crux of the situation is in the details not just the general theory. SCAF committed grave errors, so did Mursi. Egypt was hurtling down a very bumpy and dangerous road and it seemed that no one listened. This time Egyptians were imploring the army to intervene and protect them from the threats and misrule of the MB and the extremist jihadist they let loose. The head of the supreme court will now be the new interim president, there will be new elections, parliament, ...I am optimistic ( and happy) that this time Egypt will get it right. Thank you for your wishes :)

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Personally I'm glad with how things are unfolding...for the most part. Massive protests that have been largely peaceful, the military and police working together to keep it that way, that the opposition seems to be in place to form a working government when elections are held...I would love it if Egypt was able to get a government that was willing to work with the various groups in the country and put some real effort towards fixing the problems that the people want to be dealt with. I hope that the coming election goes smoothly as do all future elections. Though the military shutting down opposition media and arresting hundreds of people worries me. But I hope that the military backs off a bit and puts in a civilian government as soon as possible, I hope that the MB decides that political means will serve them better than violence, I hope long term stability comes to Egypt, and I hope that you are your loved ones stay safe meryt. :)

Of course in terms of foreign relation how this went about puts various governments in a hard place. While the removal of Mursi is popular with the military removing him it is basically a coup of an elected leader. Normally that gets condemned. Heck even if Obama wanted to offer full support to the move he'd be in violation of US law if he did. Seems he issued a statement telling the military to hand power back to a civilian government. Not the civilian government, aka Mursi, but a civilian government. Thin line to walk. Saudi Arabia has offered their support, but I guess they hated Mursi so they didn't have much to worry about. :P

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Maybe this time the Egyptians will get the government they wanted to begin with. I wish them well.

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Maybe this time the Egyptians will get the government they wanted to begin with. I wish them well.

Amen to that, despite what our president, the supposed leader of the free world, thinks.

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That this military overthrow was did not follow legal procedures follows from the fact the Mubarak's overthrow was not legal, which in turn follows from that fact the Mubarak's regime was never legal and so on back in time.

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Amen to that, despite what our president, the supposed leader of the free world, thinks.

Couldn't agree more,the West should stop tinkering with the Middle East,they've made a right B*lls up of it.

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Personally I'm glad with how things are unfolding...for the most part. Massive protests that have been largely peaceful, the military and police working together to keep it that way, that the opposition seems to be in place to form a working government when elections are held...I would love it if Egypt was able to get a government that was willing to work with the various groups in the country and put some real effort towards fixing the problems that the people want to be dealt with. I hope that the coming election goes smoothly as do all future elections. Though the military shutting down opposition media and arresting hundreds of people worries me. But I hope that the military backs off a bit and puts in a civilian government as soon as possible, I hope that the MB decides that political means will serve them better than violence, I hope long term stability comes to Egypt, and I hope that you are your loved ones stay safe meryt. :)

Of course in terms of foreign relation how this went about puts various governments in a hard place. While the removal of Mursi is popular with the military removing him it is basically a coup of an elected leader. Normally that gets condemned. Heck even if Obama wanted to offer full support to the move he'd be in violation of US law if he did. Seems he issued a statement telling the military to hand power back to a civilian government. Not the civilian government, aka Mursi, but a civilian government. Thin line to walk. Saudi Arabia has offered their support, but I guess they hated Mursi so they didn't have much to worry about. :P

I too am glad with the turn of events. I am also hopeful and optimistic that the outcome this time will meet the expectations and hopes of the people of Egypt. I am particularly pleased that the new interim president is a man of law, a judge. The involvement of Baradei, a man of integrity, is another sign of hope.

As for the military, the MB TV channel, Jazeera, and the arrests, according to what I gathered from Egyptian media and discussions with friends and family there, that there was plausible fear that the MB was planning a pre-emptive campaign to stop the 30-06 demonstrations before they even start. Some Tamarod/Rebel offices were attacked and burnt, members were shot at and one was murdered. Mursi ignored the army ultimatum which called on all political factions to sit down together to reach an agreement. Mursi, MB leaders and Mursi’s supporters instead went on record threatening violence and used not so discreet hints of eliminating opponents, naming individuals, & publicizing home addresses. The pro-Mursi rallies were filled with men marching in military style, wearing helmets, armed with ‘shooma’ (thick wooden sticks topped with lead), and shooting machine guns in the air. Mursi’s last speech was the last straw. He totally ignored the protestors and instead threatened bloodshed. Even the Salafi party Al Nour called on him to resign. At this point not only were people imploring the army to intervene and protect the demonstrators, but any failure of Al Sisy to take action would have been interpreted as his being an accomplice. It is believed that there were plans by the MB to take coordinated action to eliminate the opposition had the army not taken counter-preemptive steps. Taking into consideration the actions of MB last year in front of Itehadeyya palace where demonstrators were tortured, hung from trees and shot at, their recent threats had to be taken seriously.

Finally, Sisy is not Tantawi, and Egyptians will not accept settling down with a new dictatorship of any kind; a very high price has been paid, too many lost their lives already, Egyptians have gone too far to turn back now even if it means the loss of aid. It will be a hard process, but there is hope.

PS. The Emirates are ecstatic (bigger "fans" of the MB than even SA), Tunisia is sitting up and taking note :)

A well written article: http://outoftheboxintl.com/uncategorized/stunning-but-not-surprising

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Posted (edited)

:rolleyes: Lame. Did I say that at all? Oh wait, no I didn't. Rather I was commenting that the general view in the UM forums is that any and all American foreign policy is evil.

Well excuse me. :huh: How do you classify weapons given to Al Queda to overthrow the legal Govt in Syria? Hang on, I know the answer. The US is supporting freedom fighters against a tyrannical dictator and somehow, SOMEHOW, weapons are ending up in the wrong hands. :D

OK, now apart from the fact the simple action of supporting and arming ANY opposition of a legally elected and recognised Govt (which goes along well with your example and position about Obama's just support for the elected Govt of Morsi) is in itself a breach in neutrality and an intrusion into another nations internal affairs, your theory that the Us is unjustly discriminated on this forum by dumb, biased posters claiming it to be conducting "evil foreign policies in the ME" is, dare I say, truly naive, gullible or worst even, simply resenting the blind idiotic.

But the real clincher for me is that you are genuinely ignoring the fact that weapons have ended up in the hands of Islamic fundamentalists, the same type of people we (the West) targeted, invaded and fought against in Afghanistan through our cries of "war on terror".

Now, and I'm making assumptions here by anticipating your possible responses, if you truly believe these weapons have ended up erroneously in the hands of the worst terrorists in the ME, by mistake, then I'm assuming you must also believe the CIA are picking their agents from the Canadian 1st Brigade of Boy Scouts and I rest my case. On the other hand, if you do believe they were purposely given to Al Queda, then I expect an apology, sir.

Edited by Black Red Devil

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