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Timonthy

Pakistani sisters shot dead for dishonour...

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No no no. A crime of passion or hate crime exist in both cultures and are of course inexcusable, but they are a separate issue. A crime like in OP would not be called a hate crime or crime of passion. It would send the country into heated debate about why the hell it was allowed to happen here; and why there are people in this country who think like that.

For example: http://www.nytimes.c...malia.html?_r=0

'The human rights group Amnesty International has identified the girl as Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow and said she was killed by 50 men who stoned her in a stadium in Kismayu in front of about 1,000 spectators.'

That would not be called a hate crime or crime of passion. And neither would two sisters being shot for dancing outside in the rain and filming it.

I'm talking more about the general views in these cultures and that these kinds of thing are more socially acceptable. Backwards thinking like this has no place in our age.

I agree. I was speaking more generally. I don't think they are separate issues - there's a great deal of overlap between Islamic honour killings and what we would call domestic violence. I gave examples of wives and daughters being killed for 'bringing shame' to their families. Don't get me wrong. The Islamic concept of "honour" is especially virulent and the OP shows one of the most repulsive results of that.

In the west, I think there are examples, as I mentioned, that could fall under the category of 'honour killings'. These are actions by individuals that are roundly condemned by all in that society. When such actions are protected by law (eg, Sharia), or are somewhat condoned by the culture (eg, the OP), there is clearly a big difference.

My intention was not to suggest that western societies are as bad - but that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that they do happen. And, I believe there are similarities in the origin of these incidents. That is the inherent misogyny that is ingrained within the Abrahamic faiths. We're getting better at ridding our societies of this, but I don't think we should be congratulating ourselves just yet.

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We're getting better at ridding our societies of this, but I don't think we should be congratulating ourselves just yet.

Yes I'm sure you're aware in Australia there is still a culture of racism and sexism among other things.

It is unacceptable and we can only hope the offenders in the current generation can alter their way of thinking - and that children now who are growing up in a very mixed society see everyone more equally.

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Posted (edited)

You're right. The concept didn't exist. It still doesn't. When a white European does it, its called a crime of passion or domestic violence.

First of all, "white" has nothing to do with this. Most muslim immigrants in Europe are white. Secondly, "passion" or "domestic violence" has nothing to do with it. Honor killings are predictable and planned. Sometimes the whole family participates in it. Sometimes they on purpose let the youngest child do it, because they know under European laws, juvenile offenders get away easily. And most importantly, this is directly excused and advocated by their religious clerics. Your attempt to relativize this is pathetic. Again: The concept of "honour killings" is something brought to Europe and the US by islamic immigration.

I'm no apologist for any religiously driven behaviour. I'm an equal opportunities bigot - I hate them all.

But all religions do not do this. Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Druzes, Bahais did not bring "honor killings" to Europe and America. Muslims did. Show me a Jain who commits an "honor killing", and I will apologize at length for the error of my ways. The fact is you can not.

The claim that "all religions are same" is simply an excuse for laziness. People who claim that don´t want to bother to do their homework and inform themselves about the issue.

Edited by Zaphod222
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First of all, "white" has nothing to do with this. Most muslim immigrants in Europe are white. Secondly, "passion" or "domestic violence" has nothing to do with it. Honor killings are predictable and planned. Sometimes the whole family participates in it. Sometimes they on purpose let the youngest child do it, because they know under European laws, juvenile offenders get away easily. And most importantly, this is directly excused and advocated by their religious clerics. Your attempt to relativize this is pathetic. Again: The concept of "honour killings" is something brought to Europe and the US by islamic immigration.

The definition of honour crime according to the Human Rights Watch:

acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.

But all religions do not do this. Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Druzes, Bahais did not bring "honor killings" to Europe and America. Muslims did. Show me a Jain who commits an "honor killing", and I will apologize at length for the error of my ways. The fact is you can not.

n 2006 a Catholic Italian man shot his sister to death for having a

child out of wedlock. Up until 1991, men in Brazil could be absolved

of killing their wives over honor. In Yemen, a Jewish father killed

his daughter after a rabbi complained that she had a child from an

affair. And a Christian father beat his daughter to death in 2005 in

Palestine because she wanted to marry a Muslim. Last year in Bashika,

Mosul, a 17-year-old woman, a member of the Yezidi religion was stoned

to death for having an Arab Muslim boyfriend.

UNICEF reports that more than 5,000 non-Muslim women are killed in

so-called dowry deaths each year in India because their in-laws

consider their dowries inadequate.

Not exclusively a Muslim issue. I already posted this. You apparently missed it, or ignored it.

And this had nothing to do with who's bringing honour killings to Europe and America. I don't know why you brought that up. It's not relevant to the OP or anything any poster has written.

The claim that "all religions are same" is simply an excuse for laziness.

I never claimed this. That's a strawman.

Arguing a point I didn't make - now, that's laziness.

Here you go. This is what I actually wrote.

there's a great deal of overlap between Islamic honour killings and what we would call domestic violence. I gave examples of wives and daughters being killed for 'bringing shame' to their families. Don't get me wrong. The Islamic concept of "honour" is especially virulent and the OP shows one of the most repulsive results of that.

My intention was not to suggest that western societies are as bad - but that we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that they do happen. And, I believe there are similarities in the origin of these incidents. That is the inherent misogyny that is ingrained within the Abrahamic faiths. We're getting better at ridding our societies of this, but I don't think we should be congratulating ourselves just yet.

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The definition of honour crime according to the Human Rights Watch:

acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.

The definition is wrong. Female family members also contribute to this. Read e.g. the story of the Shafia sisters in Canada.

Not exclusively a Muslim issue. I already posted this. You apparently missed it, or ignored it.

In Europe, it is exclusively a muslim issue. As I said, we did not have the concept and a specific term for it, before muslim immigrants began murdering their daughters for crime of becoming westernized.

I never claimed this. That's a strawman.

Arguing a point I didn't make - now, that's laziness.

You did claim it. You called yourself an equal-opportunity bigot because you hate all religions. Well, to generalize about "all religions" is the epitome of laziness. You simply lump them all together and judge about all -- that is totally absurd.

Again, do show me an example where a Jain commits an "honor killing".

Of course you can not.

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The definition is wrong. Female family members also contribute to this. Read e.g. the story of the Shafia sisters in Canada.

So, provide an alternative. It's important that when we use the term, it's means the same thing to each person.

In Europe, it is exclusively a muslim issue. As I said, we did not have the concept and a specific term for it, before muslim immigrants began murdering their daughters for crime of becoming westernized.

Muslims are massively overrepresented in the stats (something like 95% in Europe) - which I acknowledged as true. The term may not have been there, but the concept was. It's only in the last 30 years that such killings have been illegal in Italy. "Honour" was accepted as extenuating circumstances in Italy until 1981:

http://www.thenation...e#axzz2YFGVTfUT

You did claim it. You called yourself an equal-opportunity bigot because you hate all religions. Well, to generalize about "all religions" is the epitome of laziness. You simply lump them all together and judge about all -- that is totally absurd.

No I didn't. Read it again. I generalised my own attitudes towards religion (not completely seriously either) - not the religion themselves. You should really have read through the other posts in this thread. My attitude towards Islam is pretty clear. But if you think only Muslims have a problem with honour crimes, then you've been blinkered by your Islamophobia. Catholicism has quite the history if you bother to look.

Have a read (sorry, it's Wiki)

http://en.wikipedia....i/Honor_killing

Why do you keep bringing up Jainism? What's that got to do with anything.

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Posted (edited)

Muslims are massively overrepresented in the stats (something like 95% in Europe) - which I acknowledged as true. The term may not have been there, but the concept was. It's only in the last 30 years that such killings have been illegal in Italy.

You can cherry-pick all you want, but the fact is that trying to relativize the concept of honor-killing which is firmly embedded in islam with some isolated examples from somewhere else remains dishonest. It is like the attempt to relativize islamic terrorism with some abortion clinic bombings committed by Rudolph 20 years ago and claim it is all the same. I don´t suppose you are trying that too?

Why do you keep bringing up Jainism? What's that got to do with anything.

I keep bringing up Jainism, because it is the most fanatically pacifist religion there is. Thus, it is the polar opposite of islam. So all these people who keep insisting that "all religions are the same" are trying tell us that Jainism and Islam are the same.

Of course, I am using the extreme ends of the religious spectrum to make the point. I thought that was obvious?

Now, you are the one who was talking about "all religions". So do tell us if you can find a Jain honor killing.

Edited by Zaphod222

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You can cherry-pick all you want, but the fact is that trying to relativize the concept of honor-killing which is firmly embedded in islam with some isolated examples from somewhere else remains dishonest. It is like the attempt to relativize islamic terrorism with some abortion clinic bombings committed by Rudolph 20 years ago and claim it is all the same. I don´t suppose you are trying that too?

It certainly is not cherry-picking. They're not isolated examples which, if you read the links (and I know you didn't) you'd see.

The problem we have here is that we're using different definitions of the term. You seem to have your own and have the word "Islam" in there.

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It certainly is not cherry-picking. They're not isolated examples which, if you read the links (and I know you didn't) you'd see.

The problem we have here is that we're using different definitions of the term. You seem to have your own and have the word "Islam" in there.

You are cherry-picking, and I am still waiting for your list of honor killings committed by Jains, Buddhists, and Bahai.

(Not holding my breath, though.)

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You are cherry-picking, and I am still waiting for your list of honor killings committed by Jains, Buddhists, and Bahai.

(Not holding my breath, though.)

Fanatically pacifist is the polar opposite of Islam? Where do you get your information at? You're cherry picking examples that you're trying to tie to an entire religion. The Qu'ran doesn't tell you to go honor kill anyone.

If I go and kill someone in the name of Jesus, is that Christianity's fault? According to you, it would be.

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You are cherry-picking, and I am still waiting for your list of honor killings committed by Jains, Buddhists, and Bahai.

(Not holding my breath, though.)

Ok. You got me. Those are wonderful religions and in future I'll reserve my ire exclusively for the Abrahamic faiths. How's that?

Now about arguing your point from facts not opinions.

I've got some facts for you. 90% of honour killings worldwide are Islamic. That leaves 10% that are not. Predominantly, but not exclusively, a Muslim issue. I've provided several lines of evidence to support this - you've provided none.

Stick to your home-made definitions and wilfull ignorance if you wish and if that makes you feel more comfortable.

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Chalk up another atrocity done in the madness that is religion.

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Posted (edited)

on side note if islamic rules are applied the people who shot them will be put to death for killing the sisters

Edited by Knight Of Shadows
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Posted (edited)

Fanatically pacifist is the polar opposite of Islam? Where do you get your information at? You're cherry picking examples that you're trying to tie to an entire religion. The Qu'ran doesn't tell you to go honor kill anyone.

If I go and kill someone in the name of Jesus, is that Christianity's fault? According to you, it would be.

Slightly idiotic your post... Christians are not required to kill anyone (read the 10 Commandments). Islam actually requires you to kill non - believers (the "Kiddy Fiddling" masters decree) and the such like. In fact today if you even try to draw a picture a Mohammed then you become a target for fundamantalists.

Of course, in the past there were many depictions of Mohammed, but apparently that is not allowed today...maybe it undermines their "Belief" system and might even have to recognise that women exist for more than procreation.

If anyone kills in the name of a specific cult or religion then they should br damned to hell (not that I believe it exists) because it is not a death expected to advance civilisation...

People are beginning to wake up to the fact that Religion is outdated, the real difficulty is trying to find something to replace it.

Edited by keithisco
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on side note if islamic rules are applied the people who shot them will be put to death for killing the sisters

...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....

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Posted (edited)

...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....

jeez i didn't know there was verses in Quran that prevent women from driving !

please enlighten me .. direct me to those verses i beg you !

so far as you are supposedly " studied " the Quran ... pfft

i have yet to see you post lines from quran to prove your points . makes me wonder

keep in mind that i only take " Quran and Hadith " into account .. pure source of religion

not people's actions

Edited by Knight Of Shadows

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...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....

Im sorry, but comments like this show how little you know about the Qur'an.

Have you read it? And I mean cover to cover, not like it was some encyclopedia, bigot style.

Please dont jump on the anti Islam bandwagon, it will get you nowhere very fast.

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...and any women who dared to show their face? Maybe want to drive a car? Maybe want to go out to a Girly Night without chaperones

Oh Yes, the Qu'ran is very good at meeting out revenge. Men decide everything for the women and children, but most cannot even read or write....

Actually the Qu'ran does not mention that, its only leaders mention that

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Im sorry, but comments like this show how little you know about the Qur'an.

Have you read it? And I mean cover to cover, not like it was some encyclopedia, bigot style.

Please dont jump on the anti Islam bandwagon, it will get you nowhere very fast.

One need not be an expert in the Qur'an to make judgements of behaviors that are attributed to faith in Islam. The behaviors speak for themselves. If a nominal "Christian" gouges out the eye of someone and quotes the Bible as justifying it then you can be sure that people would be screaming against the evils of Christianity. Many if not most of the attacks by Islamists are highlighted by the perpetrators statements of justification from the Qur'an. It is what it is.
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Im sorry, but comments like this show how little you know about the Qur'an.

Have you read it? And I mean cover to cover, not like it was some encyclopedia, bigot style.

Please dont jump on the anti Islam bandwagon, it will get you nowhere very fast.

supposedly he claimed " he studied " the Quran . that means not only read it but actually study it

study it = knew each verse . the reason behind it , when it came down , explaination . whom it directed to .. etc etc

but appearently somehow arabs had cars on in time of mohammad and quran prevented women from driving

and yet we didn't know about it

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supposedly he claimed " he studied " the Quran . that means not only read it but actually study it

study it = knew each verse . the reason behind it , when it came down , explaination . whom it directed to .. etc etc

but appearently somehow arabs had cars on in time of mohammad and quran prevented women from driving

and yet we didn't know about it

Nothing racist or demeaning of Islam here. The behavior within ISLAMIC countries tends to be dismissive of women's rights - period. Since Islamic countries ostensibly base their laws and behaviors on the Qur'an, it is reasonable to assume that they are applying their understanding of the book. You don't have to be an expert in the Qur'an to comment on obvious behaviors of Muslims in certain cases.
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but you have to be expert to link their actions to Quran or Hadith

is saudia arabia called islamic kingdom ? yes

do they follow islamic rules ? on the surface the answer might be yes but that's shallow flawed answer

when you dig deep you would find it's based on dictatorship laws in cover of islamic laws

where in Quran does it prohibit women from driving ?

there simply isn't such law .. then why does it exist in saudia ?

so their laws are not of those islamic laws

i keep saying .. it's not my duty or responsability to defend countries corruptions and goverments

but it's my responsability to disconnect their actions from those of islam

which can be easily done going back to Quran and Hadith

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