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fullywired

Chronological order of the bible

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Jorel's claims are nonsense and I've long given up bothering with him. Belief in god because it gives life meaning or makes one happy or something along these lines holds no appeal to me. Science necessarily trumps ancient myths. Creation myths are useful as literature and as such serve our culture as part of its vocabulary of allusion, plus, (we talk about Adam and Eve and so on all the time), of course, as a root source of comparative religion.

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The underlying assumption here is that miracles do not occur because they have never been observed elsewhere. If miracles are rather common events, then it is easy to believe in them and hence, biblical miracles. But if nobody else has ever observed one, then claims of biblical miracles get harder to swallow.

Before one can claim a biblical miracle, one must be able to claim ANY miracle.

There is also a problem with the definition of "miracle." What is usually meant is a violation of what is physically possible. But what if the "miracle" is physically possible, but highly improbable? It's not a miracle when somebody wins the lottery - that is built into the system. The miracle would be if I won the lottery - that is possible, but highly improbable. Exactly, what is a miracle?

Amen. And one doesn't even have to believe in Jesus to live by those teachings.

Doug

But of course physical miracles are common, even everday, events. Millions of humans, past and present, experience them just as millions experience direct contact with god. I am sorry if you have so far missed out but you shouldnt let this prejudice your judgement :innocent: Oh and biblical miracles are no different from any miracle. they are basically the application of a technology so advanced that we cant recognise it as technology. (although we are geting closer.

I can recognise some miracles as involving holographic type projections, others the transformation of matter and energy, and some the telepartation of beings and matter/energy The appearance and dematerialisation of an angel is physically indistinguishable from the teleportation of humans as seen on films like star trek.

They are "beamed in" and then "beamed up" againn. (When god speaks to a human mind to mind or projects visions into their mind he is doing nothing more than humans wil be able to do within the next 100 years for example) So i can see how the miracles are feasible (get a template for one loaf and one fish produce thousands from raw marerials and teleport them to a destination Humans will do this by the end of this century in their own homes, so it is not a big deal for an advanced entity.

For me the best miracles are where god tells me precisely what he plans to do, his reasons, and its effects, and then carries this out, using his abilities.. I only count something as a miracle if it involves an independently observable and measurable alteration in our natural physicla environment

Yes i was brought up largely as a secular humanist and became an atheist at a young age, but i was taught ethics and moralities ising logic reason and philosophy. My family lived by christ's example, even though only nominally christians.

I lived by them as an atheist for many years and found no conflict with the ethics and moralities of secular humanism , but they gave me a more proactive vision than just atheism..

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.. You should get out and meet more of us. You'll find there's nothing special about it.

He hasn't time to go out he is too busy reading

fullywired :innocent: :innocent:

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Posted (edited)

But of course physical miracles are common, even everday, events.

You had to know I was going to say this: give me a specific example of a miracle. One that is actually verifiable. Not a story that may or may not be true.

I don't recall who said this, but: someone once asked "What would you say if you saw a iron bar floating in the air?" I believe it was Aldous Huxley who answered: "I would say there was a natural phenomenon with which I was not familiar." That is the problem you are up against with proving miracles - there always may be some phenomenon that explains everything but that is unknown.

And while Star Trek technologies make good television, the assumption that some unknown entity is employing them is nothing more than speculation: perhaps it is good theology, but there is no evidence to support it.

I find myself in Pascal's predicament: how can I be sure if anything is true? I reached the stage in which one has verified his own existence and the existence of the physical universe. NOW: How do I verify a supernatural universe? So far, that has eluded me. Any ideas?

Doug

Edited by Doug1o29

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Posted (edited)

Unless you can cite peer-reviewed articles that support these contentions, you have no evidence.

Who found something? Where did he find it? When did he find it? What strata was it in? How were dates determined? For that matter, how do we know that the item was actually a tool? And exactly what nano-tech evidence do you have? How did it get there? You haven't even begun to answer the questions needed to support your contention. Let's get specific. Post your references so we can have a discussion based on what was actually said. And no, I don't mean who posted what on UM.

Doug

You have got to be kidding....

If that was all available we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, we wouldn't even be talking of evolution...

If it took over 30 years for the establishment to even admit to a human presence before 10.000 C.E. in the Americas even after archaeologists lost their jobs defending it then you don't seem to be living in the real world.

Pleistocene Epoch Finds

- Copper Coin from Illinois, over 200,000 years old

This rendition of a coin-like object, from a well boring near Lawn Ridge, Illinois, was found at a depth of about 114 feet below the surface.

According to the information supplied by the Illinois State Geological Survey, the deposits containing the coin are between 200,000 and 400,000 years old...

timetravel08_04.jpg

Who left this coin hundreds of thousands of years before civilized man evolved?

- Modern Human Skeleton from Tanzania, over 800,000 years old

In 1913 Professor Hans Reck, of Berlin University, conducted investigations at Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, then German East Africa.

During his stay at Olduvai Gorge, Reck found a modern human skeleton that remains a source of mystery and controversy to this day.

timetravel08_05.jpg

This modern skull is from a fully human skeleton found that year. The human skeletal remains, including this complete skull, were cemented in the rock and had to be chipped with hammers and chisels. It was found in the upper end of a rock bed dated at more than 1,000,000 years old.

How did this modern human find his way 1,000,000 years into the past?

- Willendorf Venus Statue, over 30,000 years old

The Willendorf Venus, from Europe, dated at 30,000 years old. Who created or left this artifact nearly 20,000 years before human civilization appeared?

timetravel08_06.jpg

- Modern Human Skull in Buenos Aires, over 1,000,000 years old

In 1896, workers excavating a dry dock in Buenos Aires found a modern human skull. The Pre-Ensenadan stratum in which the Buenos Aires skull was found is a least 1.0 - 1.5 million years old.

timetravel08_07.jpg

Even at 1 million years the presence of a fully modern human skull anywhere in the world is highly anomalous.

Why and how did a modern human arrive in Buenos Aires over 1,000,000 years ahead of its time?

Pliocene Epoch Finds

- Figurines from Nampa, Idaho, about 2 million years old

A small human image, skillfully formed in clay, was found in 1889 at Nampa, Idaho.

The figurine came from the 300-foot level of a well boring and dated to be of the Plio-Pleistocene age, about 2 million years old. G. F. Wright noted,

"The image is about an inch and a half long; and remarkable for the perfection with which it represents the human form... It was a female figure, and had the lifelike lineaments in the parts which were finished that would do credit to the classic centers of art."

timetravel08_08.jpg

Upon showing the object to ProfessorF. W. Putnam," wrote Wright, "he at once directed attention to the character of the incrustations of iron upon the surface as indicative of a relic of considerable antiquity. There were patches of anhydrous red oxide of iron in protected places upon it, such as could not have been formed upon any fraudulent object."

- Modern Human Skull found in Italy, over 3 - 4 million years old

Late in the summer of 1860, Professor Giuseppe Ragazzoni, a geologist and teacher at the Technical Institute of Brescia, traveled to the nearby locale of Castenedolo, about 10 kilometers southeast of Brescia, to gather fossil shells in the Pliocene strata exposed in a pit at the base of a low hill, the Colle de Vento.

timetravel08_09.jpg

Here he discovered this remarkable and anatomically modern human skull. The stratum from which it was taken is assigned to the Astian stage of the Pliocene.

According to modern authorities, the Astian belongs to the Middle Pliocene, which would give the skull an age of 3 - 4 million years.

- Carved Shell from the Red Crag, England, between 2.0 and 2.5 million years old

In a report delivered to the British Association for the Advancement of Science in 1881, H. Stopes, F.G.S. (Fellow of the Geological Society), described a shell, the surface of which bore a carving of a crude but unmistakably human face. The carved shell was found in the stratified deposits of the Red Crag.

The Red Crag, part of which is called the Walton Crag, is dated to be of Late Pliocene age between 2.0 and 2.5 million years old. This find would place intelligent beings in England as far back as 2.0 million and maybe as much as 2.5 million years ago.

timetravel08_10.jpg

One should keep in mind that in terms of conventional paleoanthropoligical opinion, one does not encounter such works of art until the time of fully modern Cro-Magnon man in the Late Pleistocene, about 30,000 years ago.

Eocene Epoch Finds

- Chalk Ball near Laon, France, 45 - 55 million years old

The April 1862 edition of The Geologist included an English translation of an intriguing report by Maximilien Melleville, the vice president of the Societe Academique of Laon , France.

This chalk ball was discovered in an Early Eocene lignite bed. On the basis of its stratigraphic position, is has been assigned a date of 45 - 55 million years ago.

According to Melleville, there was no possibility that the chalk ball was a forgery:

"It really is penetrated over four-fifths of its height by a black bituminous color that merges toward the top into a yellow circle, and which is evidently due to the contact of the lignite in which it had been for so long a time plunged. The upper part, which was in contact with the shell bed, on the contrary has preserved its natural color -- the dull white of the chalk.... As to the rock in which it was found, I can affirm that it is perfectly virgin, and presents no trace whatever of any ancient exploitation.

timetravel08_11.jpg

As extraordinary as it might seem to those attached to standard evolutionary views, the evidence associated in this find suggest that if humans made the ball, they must have been in France 45 - 55 million years ago.

- Mortar and Pestle in California, up to 55 million years old

In 1877 Mr. J. H. Neale was superintendent of the Montezuma Tunnel Company, and ran the Montezuma tunnel into the gravel underlying the lava of Table Mountain, Tuolumne County...

At a distance of between 1400 and 1500 feet from the mouth of the tunnel, or of between 200 and 300 feet beyond the edge of the solid lava, Mr. Neale saw several spear-heads of some dark rock and nearly one foot in length.

On exploring further, he himself found a small mortar three or four inches in diameter and of irregular shape.

timetravel08_12.jpg

This was discovered within a foot or two of the spear-heads.

He then found a large well-formed pestle and near by a large and very regular mortar. All of these relics were found the same afternoon, and were all within a few feet of one another and close to the bed-rock, perhaps within a foot of it. Mr. Neale declares that it is utterly impossible that these relics can have reached the position in which they were found excepting at the time the gravel was deposited, and before the lava cap formed.

The position of the artifacts in gravel close to the bed-rock at Tuolumne Table Mountain indicates they were 33-55 million years old. Grazing and carnivorous mammals had not even evolved on the planet at this time.

- Sling Stone from Bramford, England, 5 - 50 million years old

This sling stone is from the detritus bed beneath the Red Crag at Bramford, England. At least Pliocene in age, the stone is at least 5 million and possibly up to 50 million years old. Upon examination it was obvious that the stone had been shaped by the hand of man....

timetravel08_13.jpg

The whole surface... has been scraped with a flint, in such a way that it is covered with a series of facets running fairly regularly from end to end.... The scraping described above covers the whole surface of the object, and penetrates into its irregularities.

As it stands the object is entirely artificial... yet left in a time millions of years before humans had had even evolved on the Earth.

Mesozoic Era Proof

The Mesozoic Era is one of the major divisions of geological history, following the Paleozoic era and preceding the Cenozoic era.

The Mesozoic era, which lasted from approximately 240 million to 65 million years ago, may be characterized as the Age of Reptiles because their greatest development occurred during this era. The first birds and mammals and the first flowering plants also appeared at this time. The Mesozoic era is divided into three time periods: the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous.

As we move back into time we enter a period in the Mesozoic Era that began with the first dinosaurs appearing on the earth and ending with the development of flowering plants. Humans wouldn’t evolve for at least another 136 million years.

Cretaceous Period

- Metallic Tube at Saint-Jean de Livet, France over 65 million years old

Y. Druet and H. Salfati announced in 1968 the discovery of semi-ovoid metallic tubes of identical shape but varying size in Cretaceous chalk.

The chalk bed, exposed in a quarry at Saint-Jean de Livet, France, is estimated to be least 65 million years old.

Having considered and eliminated several hypotheses, Druet and Salfati concluded that intelligent beings had lived 65 million years ago. Who brought and left behind these metallic tubes in France more than 65 million years before the first human being would appear?

Triassic Period

- Shoe Sole from Nevada, dated at 213 - 248 million years ago

On October 8, 1922, the American Weekly section of the New York Sunday American ran a prominent feature titled "Mystery of the Petrified ’Shoe Sole," by Dr. W. H. Ballou.

Ballou wrote:

"Some time ago, while he was prospecting for fossils in Nevada, John T. Reid, a distinguished mining engineer and geologist, stopped suddenly and looked down in utter bewilderment and amazement at a rock near his feet. For there, a part of the rock itself, was what seemed to be a human footprint!

Closer inspection showed that it was not a mark of a naked foot, but was, apparently, a shoe sole which had been turned into stone.

The forepart was missing.

But there was the outline of at least two-thirds of it, and around this outline ran a well-defined sewn thread which had, it appeared, attached the welt to the sole. Further on was another line of sewing, and in the center, where the foot would have rested had the object really been a shoe sole, there was an indentation, exactly such as would have been made by the bone of the heel rubbing upon and wearing down the material of which the sole had been made.

Reid got hold of a microphotographer and an analytical chemist of the Rockefeller Institute, who made photos and analyses of the specimen. The analyses removed any doubt of the shoe sole having been subjected to Triassic fossilization....

The microphoto magnifications are twenty times larger than the specimen itself, showing the minutest detail of thread twist and warp, proving conclusively that the shoe sole is not a resemblance, but is strictly the handiwork of man. Even to the naked eye the threads can be seen distinctly, along with the definitely symmetrical outlines of the shoe sole. Inside this rim and running parallel to it is a line which appears to be regularly perforated as if for stitches.

The Triassic rock bearing the fossil shoe sole is now recognized as being dated at 213 - 248 million years old. An obviously modern shoe, complete with stitching, and etched in time in ancient Triassic rock.

Paleozoic Era Proof

The Paleozoic Era is a major division of geological time, preceded by Precambrian time and followed by the Mesozoic era, and including the Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, and Permian periods. The Paleozoic Era began about 570 million years ago and ended about 240 million years ago.

As we move back even further in time we enter this period of the Paleozoic Era where life was evolving from primitive, multicellular, free-floating forms in the sea to advanced groups on land. The most advanced life forms at the end of this period where amphibians, insects, fern forests, and small reptiles. Humans would not evolve for nearly another 300 million years.

Carboniferous Period

- Gold Thread in England, between 320 - 360 million years old

On June 22, 1844, this curious report appeared in the London Times:

"A few days ago, as some workmen were employed in quarrying a rock close to the Tweed about a quarter of a mile below Rutherford-mill, a gold thread was discovered embedded in the stone at a depth of eight feet."

Dr. A. W. Medd of the British Geological Survey wrote in 1985 that this stone is of Early Carboniferous age between 320 and 360 million years old.

Who dropped this gold thread in the ancient fern forests in a distant time when the most advanced life forms on the planet where amphibians and insects?

- Gold Chain from Morrisonville, Illinois, 260 - 320 million years old

On June 11, 1891, The Morrisonville Times reported:

"A curious find was brought to light by Mrs.
S. W. Culp
last Tuesday morning. As she was breaking a lump of coal preparatory to putting it in the scuttle, she discovered, as the lump fell apart, embedded in a circular shape a small gold chain about ten inches in length of antique and quaint workmanship.

At first Mrs. Culp thought the chain had been dropped accidentally in the coal, but as she undertook to lift the chain up, the idea of its having been recently dropped was at once made fallacious, for as the lump of coal broke it separated almost in the middle, and the circular position of the chain placed the two ends near to each other, and as the lump separated, the middle of the chain became loosened while each end remained fastened to the coal.

The lump of coal from which this chain was taken is supposed to come from the
Taylorville
or
Pana mines
(southern
Illinois
) and almost hushes one’s breath with mystery when it is thought for how many long ages the earth has been forming strata after strata which hid the golden links from view. The chain was an eight-carat gold and weighed eight penny-weights."

The Illinois State Geological Survey has said the coal in which the gold chain was found is 260 - 320 million years old. This raises the possibility that culturally advanced human beings were present or visiting in North America during that time.

How did this gold chain find itself left behind in Earth’s distant past more than a quarter of a billion years before humans had evolved?

- Carved Stone near Webster, Iowa, 260 - 320 million years old

The April 2,1897 edition of the Daily News of Omaha, Nebraska, carried an article titled "Carved Stone Buried in a Mine," which described an object from a mine near Webster City, Iowa.

The article stated:

"While mining coal today in the Lehigh coal mine, at a depth of 130 feet, one of the miners came upon a piece of rock which puzzles him and he was unable to account for its presence at the bottom of the coal mine. The stone is of a dark grey color and about two feet long, one foot wide and four inches in thickness.

Over the surface of the stone, which is very hard, lines are drawn at angles forming perfect diamonds. The center of each diamond is a fairly good face of an old man having a peculiar indentation in the forehead that appears in each of the pictures, all of them being remarkably alike. Of the faces, all but two are looking to the right.

- Iron Cup from Oklahoma Coal Mine, 312 million years old

On November 27, 1948 the following statement was made by Frank J. Kenwood in Sulphur Springs, Arkansas.

"While I was working in the Municipal Electric Plant in Thomas, Oklahoma in 1912, I came upon a solid chunk of coal which was too large to use. I broke it with a sledge hammer. This iron pot fell from the center leaving the impression mould of the pot in the piece of coal.

Jim Stall (an employee of the company) witnessed the breaking of the coal, and saw the pot fall out. I traced the source of the coal, and found that it came from the Wilburton, Oklahoma, Mines. According to Robert O. Fay of the Oklahoma Geological Survey, the Wilburton mine coal is about 312 million years old.

What advanced civilization was creating or using iron pots in our past more than 300 million years ago?- Block Wall in an Oklahoma Mine, at least 286 million years old

W.W. McCormick of Abilene, Texas, reported his grandfather’s account of a stone block wall that was found deep within a coal mine:

"In the year 1928, I, Atlas Almon Mathis, was working in coal mine No. 5., located two miles north of Heavener, Oklahoma. This was a shaft mine, and they told us it was two miles deep. The mine was so deep that they let us down into it on an elevator.... They pumped air down to us, it was so deep." One evening, Mathis was blasting coal loose by explosives in "room 24" of this mine.

"The next morning," said Mathis, "there were several concrete blocks laying in the room. These blocks were 12-inch cubes and were so smooth and polished on the outside that all six sides could serve as mirrors. Yet they were full of gravel, because I chipped one of them open with my pick, and it was plain concrete inside."

Mathis added: "As I started to timber the room up, it caved in; and I barely escaped. When I came back after the cave-in, a solid wall of these polished blocks was left exposed. About 100 to 150 yards farther down our air core, another miner struck this same wall, or one very similar."

The coal in the mine was Carboniferous, which would mean the wall was at least 286 million years old. According to Mathis, the mining company officers immediately pulled the men out of the mine and forbade them to speak about what they had seen. Mathis said the Wilburton miners also told of finding "a solid block of silver in the shape of a barrel... with the prints of the staves on it," in an area of coal dating between 280 and 320 million years ago.

What advance civilization built this wall?... Why was the truth, as is so many of these cases protected and hidden?... What is the real truth about time travelers, modern humans, and modern technology in our past?

- Hieroglyphics in Ohio Coal Mine, 260 million year old

It is reported that James Parsons, and his two sons, exhumed a slate wall in a coal mine at Hammondville, Ohio, in 1868. It was a large smooth wall, disclosed when a great mass of coal fell away from it, and on its surface, carved in bold relief, were several lines of hieroglyphics.

Who carved these hieroglyphics more than 250 years before humans walked the earth?

Devonian Period

- Nail in Devonian Sandstone, between 360 and 408 million years old

In 1844, Sir David Brewster reported that a nail had been discovered firmly embedded in a block of sandstone from the Kingoodie (Mylnfield) Quarry in North Britain.

Dr. A. W. Medd of the British Geological Survey recently indicated that this sandstone is of "Lower Old Red Sandstone age" (Devonian, between 360 and 408 million years old). In his report to the British Association for the Advancement of Science, Brewster stated:

"The particular block in which the nail was found, was nine inches thick, and in proceeding to clear the rough rock for dressing, the point of the nail was found projecting about half an inch (quite eaten with rust) into the ’till,’ the rest of the nail lying along the surface of the stone to within an inch of the head, which went right down into the body of the stone."

The fact that the head of the nail was buried in the sandstone block would seem to rule out the possibility the nail had been pounded into the block after it was quarried. This was a time where amphibians and insects were the only dominant life form on our planet.

So who dropped this nail to have it eventually preserved in rock at a time more than 350 million years before humans appeared?

Cambrian Period

- Shoe Print in Utah Shale, 505 to 590 Million Years Old

In 1968, William J. Meister, a draftsman and amateur trilobite collector, reported finding a shoe print in the Wheeler Shale near Antelope Spring, Utah.

This shoe-like indentation and its cast were revealed when Meister split open a block of shale.

Clearly visible within the imprint were the remains of trilobites, extinct marine arthropods. The shale holding the print and the trilobite fossils is from the Cambrian, and would thus be 505 to 590 million years old.

Meister described the ancient shoe-like impression in an article that appeared in the Creation Research Society Quarterly:

"The heel print was indented in the rock about an eighth of an inch more than the sole. The footprint was clearly that of the right foot because the sandal was well worn on the right side of the heel in the characteristic fashion."

At this time in our planet’s history there was no plant or animal life on the land, even the most early types of fish swimming in the seas had not yet evolved.

Pre-Cambrian Period

- Metallic Vase from Pre-Cambrian Rock, over 600 Million Years Old

The following report, titled "A Relic of a Bygone Age," appeared in the magazine Scientific American (June 5, 1852):

"A few days ago a powerful blast was made in the rock at Meeting House Hill, in Dorchester, a few rods south of Rev. Mr. Hall’s meeting house. The blast threw out an immense mass of rock, some of the pieces weighing several tons, and scattered fragments in all directions. Among them was picked a metallic vessel in two parts, rent asunder by the explosion. On putting the parts together it formed a bell-shaped vessel, 4-1/2 inches high, 6-1/2 inches at the base, 2-1/2 inches at the top, and about an eighth of an inch in thickness.

The body of this vessel resembles zinc in color, or a composition metal, in which there is a considerable portion of silver. On the side there are six figures of a flower, or bouquet, beautifully inlaid with pure silver, and around the lower part of the vessel a vine, or wreath, also inlaid with silver.

The chasing, carving, and inlaying are exquisitely done by the art of some cunning workman. This curious and unknown vessel was blown out of the solid pudding stone, fifteen feet below the surface."

According to a recent U.S. Geological Survey map of the Boston-Dorchester area, the pudding stone, now called the Roxbury conglomerate, is of Precambrian age, over 600 million years old. By standard accounts, life was just beginning to form on this planet during the Precambrian.

But in the Dorchester vessel we have evidence indicating the presence of artistic metal workers in North America over 600 million years before Leif Erikson. At this time in our planets history the was no life on land, plant or animal. The most advance life-form at this barren time in our planets history was simple algae floating in the seas. Yet somehow through time this beautiful work or art was brought and left behind and eventually buried and preserved in ancient rock.

- Grooved Sphere from South Africa, 2.8 Billion Years Old

Over the past several decades, South African miners have found hundreds of metallic spheres, at least one of which has three parallel grooves running around its equator.

The spheres are of two types

"one of solid bluish metal with white flecks, and another which is a hollow ball filled with a white spongy center."

Roelf Marx, curator of the museum of Klerksdorp, South Africa, where some of the spheres are housed, said:

"The spheres are a complete mystery. They look man-made, yet at the time in Earth’s history when they came to rest in this rock no intelligent life existed. The globes are found in pyrophyllite, which is mined near the little town of Ottosdal in the Western Transvaal. This pyrophyllite is a quite soft secondary mineral with a count of only 3 on the Mohs’ scale and was formed by sedimentation about 2.8 billion years ago. On the other hand the globes are very hard and cannot be scratched, even by steel."

The sphere with the three parallel grooves around it are too perfect to be anything but man made. The Precambrian mineral deposit where the globes are found is dated to be at least 2.8 billion years old. At this time simple microscopic cells were all that was alive on the earth.

Other Finds

- Artifacts From AIX En Provence, France

In his book Mineralogy, Count Bournon recorded an intriguing discovery that had been made by French workmen in the latter part of the eighteenth century.

Bournon wrote:

"During the years 1786, 1787, and 1788, they were occupied near AIX en Provence, in France, in quarrying stone for the rebuilding , upon a vast scale, of the Palace of Justice. The stone was a limestone of deep grey, and of that kind which are tender when they come out of the quarry, but harden by exposure to the air.

The strata were separated from one another by a bed of sand mixed with clay, more or less calcareous. The first which were wrought presented no appearance of any foreign bodies, but, after the workmen had removed the ten first beds, they were astonished, when taking away the eleventh, to find its inferior surface, at the depth of forty or fifty feet, covered with shells.

The stone of this bed having been removed, as they were taking away a stratum of argillaceous sand, which separated the eleventh bed from the twelfth, they found stumps of columns and fragments of stone half wrought, and the stone was exactly similar to that of the quarry: they found moreover coins, handles of hammers, and other tools or fragments of tools in wood.

But that which principally commanded their attention, was a board about one inch thick and seven or eight feet long; it was broken into many pieces, of which none were missing, and it was possible to join them again one to another, and to restore to the board or plate its original form, which was that of the boards of the same kind used by the masons and quarry men: it was worn in the same manner, rounded and waving upon the edges."

Count Bournon, continuing his description, stated:

"The stones which were completely or partly wrought, had not at all changed in their nature, but the fragments of the board, and the instruments, and pieces of instruments of wood, had been changed into agate, which was very fine and agreeably colored. Here then, we have the traces of a work executed by the hand of man, placed at a depth of fifty feet, and covered with eleven beds of compact limestone: everything tended to prove that this work had been executed upon the spot where the traces existed.

- Letter-like Shapes in Marble, Philadelphia

In 1830, letter-like shapes were discovered within a solid block of marble from a quarry 12 miles northwest of Philadelphia. The marble block was taken from a depth of 60-70 feet.

This was reported in the American Journal of Science (vol. 19, 1831, p. 361). The quarry workers removed layers of gneiss, mica slate, hornblende, talcose slate, and primitive clay slate before coming to the layer from which the block containing the letter-like shapes were cut.

While they were sawing through the block, the workmen happened to notice a rectangular indentation, about 1.5 inches wide by .625 inches high, displaying two raised characters.

Several respectable gentlemen from nearby Norristown, Pennsylvania, were called to the scene and inspected the object. It is hard to explain the formation of the characters as products of natural physical processes.

This suggests the characters were made by intelligent humans in the distant past.

The Nano Spirals

In the years between 1991 and 1995 various Russian gold prospectors made some peculiar discoveries at the rivers Balbanju, Narada, Kozhim and at the creeks Wetwisty and Lapchewozh. In a depth from 10 to 39 feet (3 to 12 meters) they found artificial artefacts made up of metal which hold a size from 3 centimeters to 0.0003 millimeters.

You can see on the pictures that no matter who built these spirals, they must had access to a higher form of (nano) technology. A technology which is avaible to us only since some decades. One can exclude with absolute certainty that those spirals where formed by natural activities because on one hand they offer an astonishing regularity and on the other hand they are made up of copper, molybdenum and tungsten. They have a plain surface with traces of holes and partially have also cores made up of molybdenum and tungsten. By cognizing the special form and configuration of the spirals it was clear that they were used technically. Furthermore measurements showed that the proportions of the spirals possess the "golden ratio". Most notably the bigger objects are made up of molybdenum and tungsten.

In this regard it is interesting that molybdenum has a melting point of 4748°F (2620°C) and is used by present day's version of human beings mostly in electro-technics and rocketry as well as an ingredient for alloy (molybdenum-steel), as it also occurs with tungsten. The latter was produced for the first time in 1783 by the Spanish brothers Fausto Elhuyar and Juan José Elhuyar through beneficiation of tungsten trioxid. The very hard metal tungsten, even has an melting point of 6116°F (3380°C) and is used mostly as filament for illuminants today and as already mentioned it's also used as alloy.

Amongst other things the objects were analyzed accurately through "Auger spectroscopy". This allows an exploration of the surface without damaging or destroying any of the objects. The analysis was put in execution in the central scientific institute for geology and metallurgy in Moscow. The results were amazing. One examination report shows that the scientists come to the findings that the layer of earth in which some of the spirals were found can be dated back to 100.000 years. In that report it was excluded that those artefacts were residues or garbage from Russian space flight projects. Though some people who can not arrange the truth with their inflexible world view are nonetheless certain that those artefacts "have to be" remains of Russian space flight projects or suchlike.

If this really is the case then I want an explanation for the fact that those spiral artefacts were found in layers of earth up to 39 feet (12 meters) in depth. I am consistently astounded of how bullheaded and narrow-minded some people are and how they try to counteract the evidences, evidences and thoughts that overrun the scope of mind and show that the universe has much more to offer than we get to learn at school or university. Arguably the sentence which finishes the report of the Russian scientists is a part of that:

"The data obtained allow the possibility of an extra-terrestrial technogenic origin"

And again we have physical evidence showing that our view of the world is incorrect. This case also just allows two possible explanations. Either the artefacts have an extraterrestrial origin as the russian scientists suppose in their report or they were built by an ancient civilization that had at least our stage of development - tens of thousands years ago.

Edited by Jor-el
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Jorel's claims are nonsense and I've long given up bothering with him. Belief in god because it gives life meaning or makes one happy or something along these lines holds no appeal to me. Science necessarily trumps ancient myths. Creation myths are useful as literature and as such serve our culture as part of its vocabulary of allusion, plus, (we talk about Adam and Eve and so on all the time), of course, as a root source of comparative religion.

Yes, a lot of people have stopped bothering with me... maybe because they do not actually have the answers to my questions... I posted a huge but actually very small part of a list of anomalies that science cannot explain, but keep on believing in the evolution of mankind if it makes you feel sciency...

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Posted (edited)

You have got to be kidding....

If that was all available we wouldn't be having this discussion right now, we wouldn't even be talking of evolution...

No kidding.

Without good sound evidence to back up your claim, all you have is a fairy tale. Your article on the Dorchester Vessel does not even attempt to explain how this item got there. You assume that the vessel was incorporated into a conglomerate rock, but the more-likely explanation is that it was buried in the soil above the rock and unearthed by the blast. You have to eliminate the ordinary before you can claim the extraordinary. It would be at least interesting, to have this vessel available for study.

Sorry, Jor-el. It doesn't hold water.

Doug

Edited by Doug1o29

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Posted (edited)

Double post.

Edited by Doug1o29

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Posted (edited)

No kidding.

Without good sound evidence to back up your claim, all you have is a fairy tale. Your article on the Dorchester Vessel does not even attempt to explain how this item got there. You assume that the vessel was incorporated into a conglomerate rock, but the more-likely explanation is that it was buried in the soil above the rock and unearthed by the blast.

Sorry, Jor-el. It doesn't hold water.

Doug

Yeah it doesn't hold water my foot.

Stick to your limited purview of what you know, if it is all you can allow to be real.

See... not everything is a fake... but I suppose it simply is too upsetting to be shown that your view is "establishment" through and through.

Here see this one...

http://www.edconrad.com/oldascoal/index.html

Edited by Jor-el

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The dates of some of of Jor-el's "finds" aren't as clear cut as he claims. For example they found another skeleton at the site of the Castenedolo skull and radiocarbon dating of it put it at less than a thousand years old. Also when you quote a 19th century newspaper article dated April 2nd describing an incredible discovery that has never been seen, you have to apply more than a little skepticism here.

Dating finds by stratigraphy is a difficult process, especially in areas prone to glaciers like North America. New stuff sometimes gets jumbled with old stuff and can easily be misinterpreted. Amateurs can easily misdate something.

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- Modern Human Skeleton from Tanzania, over 800,000 years old

In 1913 Professor Hans Reck, of Berlin University, conducted investigations at Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, then German East Africa.

During his stay at Olduvai Gorge, Reck found a modern human skeleton that remains a source of mystery and controversy to this day.

timetravel08_05.jpg

This modern skull is from a fully human skeleton found that year. The human skeletal remains, including this complete skull, were cemented in the rock and had to be chipped with hammers and chisels. It was found in the upper end of a rock bed dated at more than 1,000,000 years old.

How did this modern human find his way 1,000,000 years into the past?

He didn't. Although we can now see that his remains have been used to perpetuate a fabrication, to whit:

Oldoway Man: a complete skeleton found by Hans Reck at Olduvai Gorge in 1913. In 1932 it was shown to be a modern Homo sapiens, buried 20,000 years ago in older deposits that had been exposed by faulting (Johanson and Shreeve 1989). Taylor (1992) writes "Some have suggested this skeleton is an intrusive burial", when in fact this explanation has been unanimously accepted (even by Reck and the notoriously stubborn Louis Leakey). Bowden (1981) disputes this, as Reck had originally claimed the skeleton could not be an intrusive burial because of the undisturbed layers above it. It was later shown, however, that the layer above the skeleton had been misidentified by Reck, and instead of being very old, had been laid down recently, after the skeleton had been buried (Morell 1995). The completeness of the skeleton and its contracted position were also consistent with a burial rather than a natural fossilization.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_anomaly.html#castenedolo

- Modern Human Skull found in Italy, over 3 - 4 million years old

Late in the summer of 1860, Professor Giuseppe Ragazzoni, a geologist and teacher at the Technical Institute of Brescia, traveled to the nearby locale of Castenedolo, about 10 kilometers southeast of Brescia, to gather fossil shells in the Pliocene strata exposed in a pit at the base of a low hill, the Colle de Vento.

timetravel08_09.jpg

Here he discovered this remarkable and anatomically modern human skull. The stratum from which it was taken is assigned to the Astian stage of the Pliocene.

According to modern authorities, the Astian belongs to the Middle Pliocene, which would give the skull an age of 3 - 4 million years.

This is another fabrication being perpetuated as true as well:

Castenedolo Man: Morris and Parker (1982) say "Fossils of ordinary people in Mid-Tertiary rock [i.e. tens of millions of years old; the actual date is about 1.5 million years] were found in Castenedolo, Italy back in the late 1800's ...". According to Boule, an official report on these skeletons in 1899 noted that all the fossils from the deposit were impregnated with salt, except the human ones. This implies that they are from relatively recent burials. Collagen tests in 1965 and radiocarbon dating in 1969 confirmed this. (Conrad 1982)

Cremo and Thompson, in their book Forbidden Archeology, claim that the original documents in fact do not support the claim of intrusive burial (see here). Not being able to obtain the original literature I can neither confirm nor deny this, though I do not have a lot of faith in the scholarship of Cremo and Thompson (see a review of their book here). Whatever the details, I find the modern tests conducted on the bones more convincing than ancient reports at second-hand.

As to the Willendorf Venus, it doesn't require a civilization to create art. Many cultures that never reached the level to be considered a civilization have created works of art.

cormac

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He hasn't time to go out he is too busy reading

fullywired :innocent: :innocent:

Only 6 hours a day. That leaves 18. As a teacher and a member of two local communities I meet as many, if not more people, than the average. But i nearly added an addendum to a couple of these posts saying how I knew you would love and appreciate them. as classic walkerisms. Today i will be engaging with 20-30 or so other people, having driven over 200 kilometers in the process of doing so.

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Posted (edited)

You had to know I was going to say this: give me a specific example of a miracle. One that is actually verifiable. Not a story that may or may not be true.

I don't recall who said this, but: someone once asked "What would you say if you saw a iron bar floating in the air?" I believe it was Aldous Huxley who answered: "I would say there was a natural phenomenon with which I was not familiar." That is the problem you are up against with proving miracles - there always may be some phenomenon that explains everything but that is unknown.

And while Star Trek technologies make good television, the assumption that some unknown entity is employing them is nothing more than speculation: perhaps it is good theology, but there is no evidence to support it.

I find myself in Pascal's predicament: how can I be sure if anything is true? I reached the stage in which one has verified his own existence and the existence of the physical universe. NOW: How do I verify a supernatural universe? So far, that has eluded me. Any ideas?

Doug

Well that is the definition of miracle. Something real and physical which cannot be explained by present human knolewge. It was Clarke's second or third law which said that any science which is advanced enough to be unrecognisable as science is indistinguishable from magic. All real miracles are real physical events not simply delusions hallucinations or occcurences within the mind of an individual.

I cannot verify my miracles to you any more than i can verify a single natural real evnet in my life. How do i verify that i am eating raisn toast as i type, in a completely scientific manner. It depends on your trust and belief in the material i send you A piece of raisin taost raised to my mouth and a photo of me chewing does not prove i ate it. But if you were next to me observing me you could decide for yourself.

"god" manifests as physically as the raisin toast i made this morning and miracles are of the same order of natural reality. When i eat the raisn toast it fills my hunger and little raisins pop out my rear end about 12 hours or so later, hence i know the raisin toast was real But how can YOU know it was real.

Personally you have to verify the "supernatural" in exactly the same way you personally verify the natural world. How do you do this? By observation, testing, checking, logic and reason. For me the paranormal or supernatural is a part of the natural universe, just a part we have not yet been able to test measure and evaluate scientifically But we will, as our science progresses to the point where it can reproduce these events itself. As i stated, humans are less than a century from being able to duplicate every miracle, including the resurrection of body and mind, described in religious texts, save the actual creation of a planet sized object. That will come a little later.

My point about star trek is that science and science fiction both give me reference points and ways of thinking not available to a human from 2000 years ago. SO, when I see an entity materialise in front of me or dematerialse, I KNOW there are a number of scientific explanations for how this could be achieved. If it is not solid it could be a holographic projection. If it is solid then it is the product of some form of matter transmisson, or possibly a personal cloaking device rendering the wearer invisible (or some other scientific advance i haven't even considered.) There is no religious belief attached to this. They are just possible scientific explanations for real physical events. EVERY real physical event has to have a real, scientific, and physical explanation for its occurence.

Ps if i saw an iron bar floating in mid air I would not assume it was the result of a natural occurence, but of an enfgineered one. I HAVE seen an iron plate suspended in mid air. I've seen a whole train suspended in mid air. This is relatively "old" human technology called magnetic levitation or mag lev.

Edited by Mr Walker
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The dates of some of of Jor-el's "finds" aren't as clear cut as he claims. For example they found another skeleton at the site of the Castenedolo skull and radiocarbon dating of it put it at less than a thousand years old. Also when you quote a 19th century newspaper article dated April 2nd describing an incredible discovery that has never been seen, you have to apply more than a little skepticism here.

Dating finds by stratigraphy is a difficult process, especially in areas prone to glaciers like North America. New stuff sometimes gets jumbled with old stuff and can easily be misinterpreted. Amateurs can easily misdate something.

Amateurs some may be, others are known professionals.

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Well that is the definition of miracle. Something real and physical which cannot be explained by present human knolewge. It was Clarke's second or third law which said that any science which is advanced enough to be unrecognisable as science is indistinguishable from magic. All real miracles are real physical events not simply delusions hallucinations or occcurences within the mind of an individual.

Guess I wasn't very clear there. By "miracle" I mean something that violates the laws of nature. By your comments I take it that you would define any unexplained phenomenon as a miracle. Would you consider god to be supernatural?

Doug

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... But i nearly added an addendum to a couple of these posts saying how I knew you would love and appreciate them. as classic walkerisms. Today i will be engaging with 20-30 or so other people, having driven over 200 kilometers in the process of doing so.

I don't know about Walkerisms they sound like Spoonerisms ie "A lack of pies"

fullywired :innocent: :innocent:

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Amateurs some may be, others are known professionals.

Which you mixed together as if they were the same thing.

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Yes, a lot of people have stopped bothering with me... maybe because they do not actually have the answers to my questions... I posted a huge but actually very small part of a list of anomalies that science cannot explain, but keep on believing in the evolution of mankind if it makes you feel sciency...

You are not scientific, you are a cherry picker with a stacked deck and a patronizing attitude Of course people, even those who agree with you, don't plow through all your pompous cut and paste jobs.

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Posted (edited)

Which you mixed together as if they were the same thing.

I presented a list of varying situations found by both amateurs and professional archaeologists. People have this tendency that if it doesn't come with a degree it must be fake... I do not subscribe to that view, things are found by all types of people, even when they least expect it. It does not mean they are lying.

The problem is clearer with the professionals, where they are threatened in a number of ways to submit to the established view. This flimsy excuse that science and facts trumps all is a blind pulled over peoples eyes because when facts are presented they aren't accepted or believed...

Modern Human Skeleton from Tanzania, over 800,000 years old

In 1913 Professor Hans Reck, of Berlin University, conducted investigations at Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, then German East Africa.

During his stay at Olduvai Gorge, Reck found a modern human skeleton that remains a source of mystery and controversy to this day.

timetravel08_05.jpg

This modern skull is from a fully human skeleton found that year. The human skeletal remains, including this complete skull, were cemented in the rock and had to be chipped with hammers and chisels. It was found in the upper end of a rock bed dated at more than 1,000,000 years old.

This is what "Bad Archaeology", a professional website run by credentialed archaeologists has to say...

The difficulty with accepting Reck’s skeleton as being a million years old is that his work was done without any appreciation of archaeological stratigraphy. Although the deposit from which the skeleton was recovered was of that sort of age, it was not clear to Reck if the burial was intrusive (in other words, deposited more recently by digging a grave into that particular geological stratum).

Indeed, geological analysis of the material surrounding the skeleton showed it to contain red pebbles and limestone chips derived from higher (i.e. later) strata than that in which the skeleton was thought to have lain. This makes it certain that it was intrusive, in other words, in a grave cut down from a higher layer. As early as 1932, Leakey’s work there showed that this has to be the most economical explanation; had there been anatomically modern humans at this date in the gorge, we would expect to find other remains in contemporary strata, and as we do not, we must question Reck’s original judgement. In fact, even Reck later came to agree that the skeleton was of a recently buried human (most estimates now put it at around 20,000 years old)

But what they fail to mention is the following:

The accusation that stratograghy was not performed correctly conflict with the original reports. Leakey backed Reck until the disgruntled peer review insinuated threats against Leakey’s upcoming review if he did not stop backing Reck. One peer review rejected Recks finding based on his belief in the authenticity of piltdown man.

At first, Leakey thought exactly what "Bad Archaeology" above claims, that it was either a part of a different strata or that it was buried from an earlier time into the strata below. However, after Leakey and Reck studied the skeleton within the rock he found no evidence suggesting a burial (the soil would have been mixed up in that area with soil from above, and this was clearly not the case). Leakey then changed his view and backed Reck.

He only changed his position again after another archeologist (who may have had a definite bias since the books he was writing would have been blown out of the water by such a find) supposedly found the red pebbles that Leakey and Reck had somehow missed in their own careful analysis.

Leakey may not have wanted risk his career to go down the tubes due to this and eventually caved under pressure. As was mentioned above, he faced a hostile peer review if he did not stop backing Reck.

The claim that there have not been other artifacts to support the existence of a skeleton like this is also false. The problems seems to be that if something doesn’t fit into mainstream views or paradigm at the moment – it cannot exist or be correct.

Stories of this nature abound if you are paying attention, and it is the Professional Scientists that is at risk as the following video demonstrates...

See it if you want to, ignore it if you don't, the facts do not make your case.... they are dishonest and distorted by ignoring opposing evidence.

Edited by Jor-el

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You are not scientific, you are a cherry picker with a stacked deck and a patronizing attitude Of course people, even those who agree with you, don't plow through all your pompous cut and paste jobs.

Patronizing is assuming "under the mantle of science" that we believers are ignorant hicks.

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Guess I wasn't very clear there. By "miracle" I mean something that violates the laws of nature. By your comments I take it that you would define any unexplained phenomenon as a miracle. Would you consider god to be supernatural?

Doug

Any presently scientifically inexplicable phenomena is either presently paranormal or supernatural by definition. The idea of giving a person a vaccination preventing multiple diseases, would once have been considered a miracle. There are two classesof the paranormal/supernatural Those which exist only in a humans mind and may be imagined or real, and those which have independent physical existence and are thus as real as any natural entity or phenomenum.

. God includes both those categories. Imagined/ constructed deities and human interpretaion of real physicla entities. The nature of the later form of god is natural ( An evolved being of the universe) but presently immeasurable and thus unquantifiable. It is as if a human from the 22nd century went back in time 5000 years taking their technology with them. What he she could do with/to the inhabitants of earth at that time would only be understandable in terms of miracles and gods to those people.

For example such a person would be invulnerable using force field technology, capable of reading minds using inbuilt data links, able to move instantly from place to place using matter transmission, able to heal the sick and possibly raise the dead using hand held portable machines. And also able to create matter from apparently nothing (actually shaping it from energy or else manipulating it from other matter and transmitting it from place to place) They will be able to make them selves and all their technology invisible using cloaking devices. All these technologies are presently being developed and will be in common use, long before the end of this century.

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Posted (edited)

I don't know about Walkerisms they sound like Spoonerisms ie "A lack of pies"

fullywired :innocent: :innocent:

Why bother lieing. It is not self serving in the end, to tell lies. I already have such a high opinion of myself that i do not need to build a false sense of worth by lielng. I meant that you often criticise me for speaking about myself in response to posts. But i do so only to give information in respsone to criticism, such as in this case. There is no need to lie i am simply sating who and waht i am and thus why i believ and write as i do so tha tpeole will better comprehend what iam saying A reader will have a very different opinion of a person who only reads the bible, from one who reads the bible and every other form of literature they can access. And rightly so..

I've been posting for hearly 10 years now. If you doubt my veracity go back over those posts and try to find the discrepancies which would arise from lieing. All such posts include true information about me and my life as best i can recall and understand it.

I am proud of my abilities and accomplishments, but I know there are many areas where others excell, and i have no interest, as in professional sports. I have mastered and played many sports and for example learned as a teenager to ;ski barefoot, ice skate, scuba dive, spear fish, roller blade, surf (and hang five and ten) hang glide, skateboard snow ski and toboggan while on family holidays. i learned karate and judo and how to make and and use many forms of weapons from ninja stars, through swords and even homemade, mortars and pipe bombs. I even learned to horseride bareback so that i could then learn to joust (blame the tv programmes of the late fifties and early sixties like; the samurai, ivanhoe, and robin hood for this mis-spent youth) We also learned to trap animals for food using traps and shares and how to shoot them, again for food, using only one shot, one animal.

The fun for me was in learning and mastering every type of sport or challenge. I could, but i got bored playing them (and even with blowing things up and shooting them, (once you can put a full load of .22, 9mm or .45 rounds from a handgun into a human -torso sized target from 20 metres away, or hit a floating balloon with a .222 rifle from 300-500 metres, what need do you have to do better)) and i never saw any point in competitive sports. (Too much like the roman bread and circuses) So you see my mundane life was interesting enough (and yes all these activities are true, along with many more) I dont have any need to lie there either.

I was lucky to live in a time and place where this was possible and to have parents who encouraged me to dream, create and act on those dreams to make and construct things. And all of us survived without broken bones and only moderately minor; arrow, bullet, knife and other wounds. We never lost a finger and only had one case of minor conconcussion when i somersaulted a racing billy cart at high speed. I nealry lost a toe when a rope broke as i swinging from tree to tree,and I had a deep cut on my ankle from sliding into a tree stump on a motor bike racing circuit. But in general we all had a wow of a time and survived unscathed.(Except for a slightly scarred forehead where i was hit by a chop bone thrown by a girl when i was about 10, but that's another story.

Actually talkiing about this has jogged a memory One of my worst wounds came from a fishing line when i caught a very large schnapper as a young boy. I was determined to bring it up, and i did so but in the process got a very deep wound from the nylon line inmy finger.There were also numerous occasions when we had to cut fish hooks out of hands fingers and occasionally a face or two. Some rather bad cases of sunburn and the hand I cut deeply trying to vault over a 6 foot high galvanised iron fence ( but i succeeded)

Edited by Mr Walker

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Patronizing is assuming "under the mantle of science" that we believers are ignorant hicks.

That is indeed an odd definition. I think you constructed it so as to be able to feel persecuted.
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Why bother lieing. It is not self serving in the end, to tell lies. I already have such a high opinion of myself that i do not need to build a false sense of worth by lielng. I meant that you often criticise me for speaking about myself in response to posts. But i do so only to give information in respsone to criticism, such as in this case. There is no need to lie i am simply sating who and waht i am and thus why i believ and write as i do so tha tpeole will better comprehend what iam saying A reader will have a very different opinion of a person who only reads the bible, from one who reads the bible and every other form of literature they can access. And rightly so..

I've been posting for hearly 10 years now. If you doubt my veracity go back over those posts and try to find the discrepancies which would arise from lieing. All such posts include true information about me and my life as best i can recall and understand it.

I am proud of my abilities and accomplishments, but I know there are many areas where others excell, and i have no interest, as in professional sports. I have mastered and played many sports and for example learned as a teenager to ;ski barefoot, ice skate, scuba dive, spear fish, roller blade, surf (and hang five and ten) hang glide, skateboard snow ski and toboggan while on family holidays. i learned karate and judo and how to make and and use many forms of weapons from ninja stars, through swords and even homemade, mortars and pipe bombs. I even learned to horseride bareback so that i could then learn to joust (blame the tv programmes of the late fifties and early sixties like; the samurai, ivanhoe, and robin hood for this mis-spent youth) We also learned to trap animals for food using traps and shares and how to shoot them, again for food, using only one shot, one animal.

The fun for me was in learning and mastering every type of sport or challenge. I could, but i got bored playing them (and even with blowing things up and shooting them, (once you can put a full load of .22, 9mm or .45 rounds from a handgun into a human -torso sized target from 20 metres away, or hit a floating balloon with a .222 rifle from 300-500 metres, what need do you have to do better)) and i never saw any point in competitive sports. (Too much like the roman bread and circuses) So you see my mundane life was interesting enough (and yes all these activities are true, along with many more) I dont have any need to lie there either.

I was lucky to live in a time and place where this was possible and to have parents who encouraged me to dream, create and act on those dreams to make and construct things. And all of us survived without broken bones and only moderately minor; arrow, bullet, knife and other wounds. We never lost a finger and only had one case of minor conconcussion when i somersaulted a racing billy cart at high speed. I nealry lost a toe when a rope broke as i swinging from tree to tree,and I had a deep cut on my ankle from sliding into a tree stump on a motor bike racing circuit. But in general we all had a wow of a time and survived unscathed.(Except for a slightly scarred forehead where i was hit by a chop bone thrown by a girl when i was about 10, but that's another story.

Actually talkiing about this has jogged a memory One of my worst wounds came from a fishing line when i caught a very large schnapper as a young boy. I was determined to bring it up, and i did so but in the process got a very deep wound from the nylon line inmy finger.There were also numerous occasions when we had to cut fish hooks out of hands fingers and occasionally a face or two. Some rather bad cases of sunburn and the hand I cut deeply trying to vault over a 6 foot high galvanised iron fence ( but i succeeded)

Truly amazing!!!! :w00t:

fullywired

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I presented a list of varying situations found by both amateurs and professional archaeologists. People have this tendency that if it doesn't come with a degree it must be fake... I do not subscribe to that view, things are found by all types of people, even when they least expect it. It does not mean they are lying.

The problem is clearer with the professionals, where they are threatened in a number of ways to submit to the established view. This flimsy excuse that science and facts trumps all is a blind pulled over peoples eyes because when facts are presented they aren't accepted or believed...

Patronizing is assuming "under the mantle of science" that we believers are ignorant hicks.

There is nothing magical about an advanced degree. Anybody with average intelligence can do it. It takes opportunity and a high level of persistence. But one does not have to be particularly brilliant. All an advanced degree does is indicate that a (presumably) impartial entity is willing to certify that the holder of the degree knows what he is doing in a certain field. Degrees in Science, Technology, Engineering and Math (STEM) are in demand because they certify that the bearers are competent in a certain type of problem solving. That's all scientific work is - problem solving.

Science is not a set of findings or discoveries; it is a process for looking at nature. Those finds you listed are not science; it is the process of examining them that is (or isn't) science. More than anything else, research involves running down and tying up all the loose ends. And that is the one thing the posted articles didn't do. Perhaps in 1852 there were loose ends that couldn't be checked out, or perhaps the people who made the finds disturbed them so that the data was no longer available, or perhaps the people who made the finds didn't know what to check out or how to do it. At any rate, it wasn't done, so you (and we) are left with nothing but speculation and some useless artifacts.

People who disagree with scientific findings are not ignorant hicks - scientists do it all the time (Send a paper through peer review if you'd like to find out how nasty things can get. Even if you're right, you'll likely get your ears pinned back.). But people who do not know that they do not know the techniques of rational thinking and research and persist in putting out unsupported drivel instead of reliable work - those people ARE ignorant hicks.

Doug

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