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Knight Of Shadows

Punishments Of Islam : Stealing

23 posts in this topic

here is another act in islamic laws that brought rage for the brutality of it

we often heard that stealing punishment in islam is cutting off the person's arm

now again like the previous topic these laws belonged to middle ages

yet they somehow found their way into this day and age a sad truth

it's brutal and harsh punishment by today's standards

and even among muslims this seem to be unjust

what if some one was hungry ? what if some one was in need right ?

well the following explaination should cover all the unexplained points about this punishment

once again there is certain requirements to apply this punishment

and these requirements decide weather a thief should get his hand cut off or not

now what are those requirements ?

first of all the criminal should be caught in act or at least proven 100% to be stealing without doubt

and that done by unbiased court and judges not in some back ally or street by the public

this punishment cannot be applied in following circumstances

1- if some one stole something simple to eat or in dire need

2- in times of poverty and famine

two incidents from history to be noted from the time of second calipha Omar Ibn Al-Kattab

a ) one time a person complained to omar that some guys stole a camel from him

when the guys were brought to omar it turns out they are servant of some rich merchant

and when they were asked why they stole it and to return it their answer was they slaughtered it because

they were hungry and their lord does not pay them or give them food

omar called their lord and told him that if this happens again he would apply stealing punishment on him

instead of the guys .. and the guys were let free unharmed

from this we can tell that stealing to eat cannot be punished same way as stealing just because of greed

or as profession to gather money

b ) another incident was in times of great famine in time of same calipha Omar

he canceled the punishment because the dire need among people

and some people simply were dying unable to get food

so in conclusion when some one found stealing in islam you don't simply take him to the back ally

with angry crowd and cut off his arm

there is court and judges that first job is to determine if he's really guilty

and after that to look at the circumstances that person stole under them

weather he was stealing to feed hungry childrens .. or simply stealing for greed

and punishment can be done only by the court and not carried on by ordinary people

again all opinions are welcome

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Like I said clear as mud.

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Like I said clear as mud.

what's not so clear ?

perhaps to you they're not .. but to muslims they are

they are not clear to you because you had no previous knowledge of these informations

you and other simply hear " islam cut off hand of thief " and that basically conclude your knowledge of the topic

however our knowledge extend more .. we know requirements need for such punishment

we know in which cases that punishement should not be applied and who can and cannot do it

is it as clear as mud ? basically after you read this topic you simply know everything about this punishment

i don't think it can be any clearer

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I think it's a question of who makes the decisions, who appoints judges, who decides the penalties, whose exegesis (interpretation of the Qu'ran) is honored and why, and probably a whole host of other issues I haven't thought about in the past 30 seconds. If your description above is intended as an objective description of mutilation as punishment in the contemporary Islamic world, it doesn't square with the reality of differing interpretations within the Islamic world, and routine butchery between competing/opposing Muslim factions (Sunni/Shiite, Alawite, Sufi, etc.) that cannot be blamed on Israel or 'The Great Satan.'

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once again there is certain requirements to apply this punishment

and these requirements decide weather a thief should get his hand cut off or not

now what are those requirements ?

first of all the criminal should be caught in act or at least proven 100% to be stealing without doubt

and that done by unbiased court and judges not in some back ally or street by the public

You don't understand, as long as the law is there and that is the punishment for it, somebody is going to use it. As long as it is held up and sacred text giving by God, then it is the law. Until you dump the book you're stuck with it.

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first of all the criminal should be caught in act or at least proven 100% to be stealing without doubt

and that done by unbiased court and judges not in some back ally or street by the public

Good luck with this part...

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You don't understand, as long as the law is there and that is the punishment for it, somebody is going to use it. As long as it is held up and sacred text giving by God, then it is the law. Until you dump the book you're stuck with it.

in your dreams

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I think it's a question of who makes the decisions, who appoints judges, who decides the penalties, whose exegesis (interpretation of the Qu'ran) is honored and why, and probably a whole host of other issues I haven't thought about in the past 30 seconds. If your description above is intended as an objective description of mutilation as punishment in the contemporary Islamic world, it doesn't square with the reality of differing interpretations within the Islamic world, and routine butchery between competing/opposing Muslim factions (Sunni/Shiite, Alawite, Sufi, etc.) that cannot be blamed on Israel or 'The Great Satan.'

first part of your reply is actually very important

and it's the reason why so many laws are misused

and there lies the problem .. there is no longer people that are impartial and able rule

with both logic and laws combined and still manage to be fair such as the examples i gave

as for the second part it's not related to the topic ..

and it's much more deeper topic to be discussed in simple topic such as this one

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Posted (edited)

Good luck with this part...

as sarcastic as it is .. as real as it is unfortuantly

yes it seems impossible these days

Edited by Knight Of Shadows
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It's this sort of thing that makes people think Islam is a religion which promotes violence. Of course you can reference all sorts of passages from the Koran which will promote peace and love etc, but that's all undone when you cut off someones hand for stealing. All you are saying is that they need to weigh everything up first, before they decide whether or not to cut off someones hand.

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as sarcastic as it is .. as real as it is unfortuantly

yes it seems impossible these days

I think all it would take would be an eye witness from a more highly respected person than the accused for a guilty verdict. He said/she said with no hard evidence would probably do it.

Hello justice. Goodbye hand. :/

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Posted (edited)

first part of your reply is actually very important

and it's the reason why so many laws are misused

and there lies the problem .. there is no longer people that are impartial and able rule

with both logic and laws combined and still manage to be fair such as the examples i gave

as for the second part it's not related to the topic ..

and it's much more deeper topic to be discussed in simple topic such as this one

It appears to me that they are directly related, on a simple level: The subjective, and therefore wildly varying, interpretations of the Qu'ran.

Where, in the Qu'ran, does it tell believers to kill one another in the name of a variant interpretation of Allah?

Edited by szentgyorgy

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in your dreams

There is a whole world out there of ideas and philosophies, some are good, some not so good. Why limit yourself to one out of date "sacred" text. Well that is your nightmare, You will be happy I have spoke my peace, for now, time to move on.

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It appears to me that they are directly related, on a simple level: The subjective, and therefore wildly varying, interpretations of the Qu'ran.

Where, in the Qu'ran, does it tell believers to kill one another in the name of a variant interpretation of Allah?

nope but if people followed Quran and Hadith direclty there will be only one sect of islam " Sunnis " not as many

it's deep topic and most of the other sects roots does not come from islam

they did not drop their previous belief before coming into islam

instead they merged their previous believes into islam which resulted this

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so in conclusion when some one found stealing in islam you don't simply take him to the back ally

with angry crowd and cut off his arm

there is court and judges that first job is to determine if he's really guilty

Let me get this right: You are using this forum to defend Shariah law?!

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nope but if people followed Quran and Hadith direclty there will be only one sect of islam " Sunnis " not as many

it's deep topic and most of the other sects roots does not come from islam

they did not drop their previous belief before coming into islam

instead they merged their previous believes into islam which resulted this

Thank you for confirming my point. It all boils down to who has the "authority," who reads the "authorized" Book, who respects The Prophet's grandson more than the other guys, and therefore--ultimately--who is the self-appointed "True Believer," who notoriously wields the sharpest sword or better automatic rifle. Islam, of course, is not alone in this dynamic. What I outlined in that first sentence is relatively applicable to Catholics, Protestants, the Orthodox and other faiths over the centuries. In some areas the violence hasn't abated.

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Posted (edited)

A week ago I was watching our local current affairs report on channel 7 (Today Tonight). The show has just recently added a new internet active segment for people to vote live as to the various outcomes of the story. In this event I was watching, a drunk man walked by a woman's home. She was sleeping on the couch, but he could see her through the window. After checking the door, it was unlocked. Being drunk he walked in and began to dab his fingers down below (naughty naughty). She woke up and in panic told him to leave. Eventually he did, and was found by police a few hours later passed out in an apartment foyer very close to where this woman lived.

Long story short, as I watched the show, the live interactive segment asked viewers what kind of sentence should be given to this man - Suspended sentence, 3 years, 10 years, 25 years, Life in jail. More than 60% of people felt that the dude should receive a life sentence (ten minutes into the story when it was said that the maximum sentence for rape was 25 years, people began to vote the maximum 25 years, and the final result was almost identical between 25 years and life, with the rest of it coming a distant third). Considering what happened, sure he was drunk, he was stupid, and in my opinion he definitely deserved something! But life or 25 years for what he did? I did not agree with that at all (for the record, I would argue 8-10 years would be a fair call for this).

So what is my point? If someone steals for greed and financial gain, is chopping off a hand really that bad in comparison? Let's consider that a person who simply fingered a woman without consent is popularly considered to be worthy of life in jail, what worth is a hand in comparison?

I'm not supporting Sharia Law. I'm simply trying to put perspective on this to see whether our Western opinions really are that much different (most Aussies feel Life Imprisonment is the best result for someone who simply fingered a woman). I don't want to make light of the situation, surely it was terrible for the woman in question. But she wasn't raped in the sense of "hand go in glove", if you take my meaning. And the perpetrator left when challenged. But most Aussies think a Life Sentence is the best. But turn this around, someone steals a person's property in order to make financial gain - let's say he should just get a slap on the wrist (or is that a severing of the wrist).

As I said, I'm not making any point, I'm simply attempting to put perspective on this. Is cutting off a hand for taking someone else's property for financial gain (as opposed to stealing food to stay alive) really that much crazier than what people want or expect in the West with other crimes (a life sentence for putting a finger in someone else's unmentionables, without consent)?

Edited by Paranoid Android

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'Stealing' and 'thievery' does not mean the same thing it does today ... these days in the times of 'plenty' having property stolen is hardly the end of the world ... but to a culture where everything is essential and hard to come by and more often than not essential to daily life or even a matter of life and death ... the consequences of having these possessions stolen takes on a whole different connotation.

In the middle of desert community ... having your only means to water or travel means certain death ... that's why 'stealing' is such a heinous crime in the day. Even today in some and many cases.

~

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'Stealing' and 'thievery' does not mean the same thing it does today ... these days in the times of 'plenty' having property stolen is hardly the end of the world ... but to a culture where everything is essential and hard to come by and more often than not essential to daily life or even a matter of life and death ... the consequences of having these possessions stolen takes on a whole different connotation.

In the middle of desert community ... having your only means to water or travel means certain death ... that's why 'stealing' is such a heinous crime in the day. Even today in some and many cases.

~

A very good point, if you steal a car from someone who has millions it's not quite of the same magnitude as someone who has virtually nothing that you steal their livelihood from them. Let's say you stole their anvil and pawned it for some cash. The dude you stole it from is a poor blacksmith and now you've taken away his only means of finance, for your own monetary gain. This would be different to stealing a loaf of bread from a bakery (you can always bake more bread).

As noted above, I'm not advocating Sharia Law, simply putting some perspective on it to stop the reactionary arguments against it that are usually based more in emotion than logic.

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Posted (edited)

Stealing is wrong, but it is a crime that can be fixed if they seriously wanted it to work... Forgiveness comes in as well.. A thief can give it back and apologise, he or she can also seek help... I have heard of a few seeking help, they hated thieving...So I beleive this can get fixed and work out well..

My 1st home was broken into and burgled twice, the second time they kicked the life out of our dog ( boot marks in his belly and injured ) I still could not condone wanting them to have their hands cut off.. What good would that do for me IF they were punished in that way? ...Will it bring my goods back?

Thing is, possessions come and go, but your life and limbs can't... If I had a purse full of cash and you held a knife or gun at me or my kid, I wll gladly hand you the cash, for he SAME reasons, money comes and goes, life doesn't...

Anyone who believes in change and forgiveness should fully understand exactly what I am saying...

See, this fits in with - Should the punishment fit the crime?..Should we sentence them to death for killing? ...Should we cut off their limbs for stealing? Who's to say? All I can say is NO and I have been a victim of theft a few times ..I still couldn't condone anyone getting the chop..I'd sleep better at night if I got them help instead... If they don't want help, then lock them up ...But shedding blood and putting them through torture is not worth it...

A thief can make it up to you and then some, can we make it up to them if we chop off their limbs? I seriously doubt it.. I couldn't compare that with jail time either.. At least in jail they still have the use of their limbs...

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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You don't understand, as long as the law is there and that is the punishment for it, somebody is going to use it. As long as it is held up and sacred text giving by God, then it is the law. Until you dump the book you're stuck with it.

Well, one can ask you to dump the constitution. Maybe then less american children would be killed on the streets.

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Posted (edited)

i think there is major point the has been missing here

the punishment has been " cancelled " under certain circumstances by Omar

that was not mentioned in Quran or Hadith or islamc laws that it can be undone

however Omar second only to Mohammad the prophet did cancel it and that tell us

that certain laws CAN be undone if met with certain circumstances

lol by the way Paranoid Andriod that's halirious story but i can see your point in it

i just got mental image in my head of drunken old guy walking freely and fingering people that's just twisted :D

Edited by Knight Of Shadows

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Thank you for confirming my point. It all boils down to who has the "authority," who reads the "authorized" Book, who respects The Prophet's grandson more than the other guys, and therefore--ultimately--who is the self-appointed "True Believer," who notoriously wields the sharpest sword or better automatic rifle. Islam, of course, is not alone in this dynamic. What I outlined in that first sentence is relatively applicable to Catholics, Protestants, the Orthodox and other faiths over the centuries. In some areas the violence hasn't abated.

you don't know the other sects of islam .. their practices , source of faith , behavior

therefore you cannot say who's authority or judge based on that

while you lack the knowledge in these sects to make that judgement

first study them , their practices , behavior , differences .. then you can judge

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