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Ben Masada

Produce the Body!

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PRODUCE THE BODY!

Dear Ben,

Did he or did he not? I am talking about the resurrection of Jesus. If he did not resurrect, would you be able to produce the body? If you are not able to explain what happened, how about giving yourself up?

David Mishkin - Los Angeles, CA USA.

Dear Mr.Mishkin,

No sir, he did not. If you get yourself together and then put together whatever you can from reading the NT about the resurrection of Jesus, you will see that he did not. Now I would like to bring to your attention some points about that tale. Tale! Yes sir, and the term is not mine. I am borrowing it from Jesus' own disciples who went even further by adding the adjective "idle". Idle tale, they said.(Luke24:11) The women had reported the word of the "angel" that Jesus had resurrected. The disciples probably had never heard of such a thing. They had no choice but to discard the report as an idle tale. Now think. If those who lived daily with Jesus, listening daily to his words could not believe the report, how can we be expected to after 2000 years of listening to a tale that just won't get less idle?

When did the disciples ever change their minds about the idle tale of the resurrection? I wonder because years later when the Cause of the Nazarenes was booming, Paul appeared preaching that Jesus had resurrected and almost got killed in Jerusalem. Why if the Nazarenes were headquartered in Jerusalem and coexisting peacefully with mainstrem Judaism? Yes, but the resurrection of Jesus was not an item in their agenda. The whole thing had been made up by Paul. Yes, all according to his gospel as he himself revealed it to his disciple Timothy.(II Tim.2:8) Paul needed that tale to promote his Cause which turned out to be Christianity.

The resurrection of Jesus, if it must be accepted it has to be only and exclusively by faith because there is no evidence to substantiate the event. An empty tomb is no proof of resurrection and the refusal at the time to produce the body does not diminish from the fact that the body was indeed removed from there. And the guards can never be taken as evidence of anything whatsoever because they were set at the tomb area only late Saturday morning.(Mat.27:62-66) The disciple who removed Jesus' body from that tomb had the whole night of Friday all for himself to act without anydisturbance. If you don't mind discussing the issue further, I can even provide you with the name of the disciple who removed the body and found to be rather prudent not to produce it. And he did it because he had enough reasons to believe that by not doing it even during the hours of that Sabbath, Mary Magdalene would have done it herself as she declared she would.(John 20:15) So I wish the preachers of the resurrection would at least give Paul the credit that's due him. (II Tim.2:8)

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would you swear to that on a stack of bibles....?

:-)

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So these eleven men gave themselves to a quest that led them to be whipped and mocked, poverty and shameful treatment and in all but one case martyrdom -all for a lie? Yeah.. that sounds like reasonable human behavior...

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In my view, Jesus didn't die on the cross, as he appeared later in the flesh. I think this is true because I don't consider resurrection of the dead possible, even when it is claimed to be factual, and written down in books as proof.

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In my view, Jesus didn't die on the cross, as he appeared later in the flesh. I think this is true because I don't consider resurrection of the dead possible, even when it is claimed to be factual, and written down in books as proof.

You have every right to feel that way SMK. Christians believe He actually did reanimate physically and visit with His students and share meals but also appear inside rooms without using the door... physical but able to break the rules of physics. It all gets down to faith and not everyone is capable of believing I guess. Those people I have no problem with at all. It's the one's who feel the need to try to make fun of believers that I don't understand. There are some here at UM who will say that the whole resurrection story is bogus and turn around and explain for days how BigFoot HAS to be real :w00t: To each his own :tu:
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In my view, Jesus didn't die on the cross, as he appeared later in the flesh.

How do you supposed he could have survived suffocation on the cross?

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How do you supposed he could have survived suffocation on the cross?

According to the Gospels, Jesus died after only six hours on the cross. Crucifixion was designed as a slow, painful death which oftentimes lasted for days. Even Pilate was surprised and suspicious at Jesus' quick death.

I think we don't really know enough about how one dies from being crucified, especially one singe individual, to say conclusively how, when and if Jesus died by being crucified.

In Roman times a common starting point was to be whipped across the back, buttocks and legs with a flagrum. This was a short whip with sharp objects interweaved into the thongs. The victim was then often obliged to carry part of their cross to the place of execution, outside the city walls. The weight of this would obviously vary depending upon the region and the type of wood used. Once at the place of crucifixion, the hands and feet of the prisoner were fixed to the cross with either nails or cords, and the cross erected in any one of a range of orientations. If crucified head up, the victim's weight may also have been supported on a small seat. This was believed to prolong the time it took a man to die. Victims in the head up position could spend several days on the cross before they died. One technique used by the Romans to hasten death was to break the legs below the knee with a blunt instrument1 (p. 25). Modern interpretation in the medical literature as to how this might work includes blood loss from the fracture site or respiratory failure from fat embolism. In those positioned head up then respiratory failure might also ensue as a consequence of the inability to inflate the chest sufficiently, since the legs could no longer be used to support the weight of the body. However, it is unknown which of these three widely stated hypotheses is correct, since crucifixion is not employed as a modern legal method of execution.
Our conclusion is that, at present, there is insufficient evidence to safely state exactly how people did die from crucifixion in Roman times. It is quite likely that different individuals died from different physiological causes, and we would expect that the orientation in which they were crucified would be crucial in this respect.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420788/#__sec3title

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According to the Gospels, Jesus died after only six hours on the cross. Crucifixion was designed as a slow, painful death which oftentimes lasted for days. Even Pilate was surprised and suspicious at Jesus' quick death.

If any man was put through torture, and nailed on a cross like that, they can die within the guts of an hour if they are lucky... I am not rolling with religious scriptures, I am rolling with science.. It is medically impossible for any man to stay alive on the cross after so much torture and the position they were hung.. If they so much as swoon on the cross, they'd be dead within mins..

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f any man was put through torture, and nailed on a cross like that, they can die within the guts of an hour if they are lucky... I am not rolling with religious scriptures, I am rolling with science.. It is medically impossible for any man to stay alive on the cross after so much torture and the position they were hung.. If they so much as swoon on the cross, they'd be dead within min

If I may say with respect, this is just your opinion, as you nor I were there to observe Jesus' crucifixion, nor were we there to observe multiple crucifixions during those times in order to come to a realistic conclusion as to how long various people can live being nailed to a post.

If we take the NT description as fact, why was Pilate surprised and suspicious that Jesus had died only after six hours, and send a soldier to verify Jesus was actually dead?

At any rate, we all have our opinions on this subject, including me, and since none of us were there as observers, all of our opinions are just opinions. I think the only rational conclusion we can come to is that none of us will ever know what actually happened, and we must realize that our own thoughts on the subject therefore exist in our imaginations.

I imagine Jesus may not have died on the cross, others imagine he did. Until someone invents a time machine, in my view, our imagination is all we have in considering this subject.

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Posted (edited)

If I may say with respect, this is just your opinion

Not my opinion, its a medical fact.

our imagination is all we have in considering this subject.

Your imagination, not mine.

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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PRODUCE THE BODY!

Perhaps more important to establishing the story is to produce an example of someone else, especially in the modern world, who has reached this stage of death and revived without medical intervention. If such a case could be found, that would point toward the possibility that someone could survive crucifixion. Failing that, a mechanism of how that could happen needs to be proposed.

One has been. According to this, while Jesus was on the cross, he was given something ("Bile" in vinegar.). Whatever it was knocked him out. After he was most-likely dead, his body was taken down and he was revived. He returned from the grave; therefore, he must be god. Only one problem with this: somebody forgot to bribe that Roman soldier with the spear. Although Jesus revived and returned to his followers, sepsis in the massive wound eventually did him in. But by now, the legend of his return from the grave was gathering strength and there was hope of overthrowing Roman rule. A dead Jesus would crush any hope of a rebellion. Quietly, his followers dug an unmarked grave...

And that's how the story might have actually happened; that is, IF it happened at all.

Doug

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According to the Gospels, Jesus died after only six hours on the cross. Crucifixion was designed as a slow, painful death which oftentimes lasted for days. Even Pilate was surprised and suspicious at Jesus' quick death.

I think we don't really know enough about how one dies from being crucified, especially one singe individual, to say conclusively how, when and if Jesus died by being crucified.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....88/#__sec3title

The way you die on a cross can be counted in minutes or hours depending on how it is done.

If you give the body support, you can be there for days on end, if you are not given support you will die within minutes.... how?

Jesus was offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture which he refused to drink. Jesus was thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood patibulum (the cross section of the cross).

p13.jpg

The legionnaire felt for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drove a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moved to the other side and repeated the action, being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement.

Map_Nails.jpg

The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes (the vertical section of the cross) and the titulus reading, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” is nailed in place.

The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified.

Feet1.jpg

As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain — the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.

As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.

Respiration1.jpg

Jesus experienced hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins -- a terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart.

It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain.

A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid. Some translations say vinegar but that is basically the same thing. Wine is fermented grapejuice and so is vinegar. Vinegar is actually derived from the french word vin aigre which simply put is "sour wine" which in turn is derived from the Latin vinum aegrum meaning "feeble wine".

The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.

Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: “And immediately there came out blood and water.” That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Jesus died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

Spear1.jpg

In short, how you are placed on the cross determines the length of your stay on the cross.

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps more important to establishing the story is to produce an example of someone else, especially in the modern world, who has reached this stage of death and revived without medical intervention. If such a case could be found, that would point toward the possibility that someone could survive crucifixion. Failing that, a mechanism of how that could happen needs to be proposed.

One has been. According to this, while Jesus was on the cross, he was given something ("Bile" in vinegar.). Whatever it was knocked him out. After he was most-likely dead, his body was taken down and he was revived. He returned from the grave; therefore, he must be god. Only one problem with this: somebody forgot to bribe that Roman soldier with the spear. Although Jesus revived and returned to his followers, sepsis in the massive wound eventually did him in. But by now, the legend of his return from the grave was gathering strength and there was hope of overthrowing Roman rule. A dead Jesus would crush any hope of a rebellion. Quietly, his followers dug an unmarked grave...

And that's how the story might have actually happened; that is, IF it happened at all.

Doug

The Bile in vinegar is nothing but cheap wine called Posca and Jesus did not drink any of it at all, not one drop, or it would also have been recorded that he did.

Edited by Jor-el

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From my earlier link, "Medical Theories of the Cause of Death in Crucifixion" by Matthew W. Maslen and Piers D. Mitchell in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine:

The typical aim of articles by this group has been to determine how crucified individuals actually died; and they often focus on the case of Jesus of Nazareth. Since Stroud's book of 1847,2 at least 10 different theories have been proposed (Table 1), and many more articles have been published suggesting various combinations of these theories. The 10 examples referenced in Table 1 have been chosen merely as representing the wide difference of opinion in the published literature: it is not an exhaustive list of all articles published on the subject. The postulated causes of death include cardiovascular, respiratory, metabolic, and psychological pathology. Some authors have even argued that in a limited proportion of cases the victim only appeared to die, and recovered consciousness once brought down from the cross.
When a large number of theories are proposed for a problem in any scientific discipline, this often demonstrates that there is no clear evidence indicating the answer. Here we investigate why there are over 10 completely different theories described in the medical literature.
There has been just one archaeological case of crucifixion published to our knowledge. Cases are rare, as most crucified people were not formally buried, but left on a rubbish dump to be eaten by wild dogs and hyenas. The one case we do have was a young Jewish man buried during the Roman Period, in a tomb near Giv'at ha-Mivtar in Israel.9 The inscription on the ossuary suggests his name was probably Yehohanan ben Hagkol. The skeletal remains were only available for study for a few weeks before being given a Jewish burial, although a model of this calcaneus and nail have been exhibited in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. The excavated remains were fragmentary and incomplete, but were unmistakably a case of crucifixion. The initial osteoarchaeological interpretation of the remains10 was of poor quality, and somewhat misleading. A much more expert analysis of these remains was published in 1985 by Zias and Sekeles.11 They described how an 11.5cm iron nail had been hammered through the body of the right calcaneus (heel bone) from lateral to medial, and was still in situ (Figure 1). The tip of the nail was bent, suggesting that during its insertion it had perhaps met a hard knot of wood or pre-existing nail left from an earlier crucifixion. The remains of a flat piece of olive wood were found to be located between the lateral aspect of the calcaneus and the head of the nail. Its use may have been to prevent the crucifixion victim freeing his foot by forcing it laterally over the head of the nail. It seems that, at least in this case, the heels were nailed to the sides of the cross. There was no evidence for nail insertion through the bones of the wrist or forearm, although this is widely stated in medical articles.The appearance of the tibial fragments was suggestive of post mortem damage due to the decomposition process, and not ante mortem fractures to hasten death. However, several medical articles incorrectly state that they were ante mortem. We also have no idea as to whether this particular victim was positioned head up, head down, or in any other orientation.
Every carving of Jesus' crucifixion that we have ever seen in Catholic or Protestant churches have a nail passing through both feet from front to back. This religious stereotype has influenced the views of many researchers over the years. However, there is no evidence that crucifixion was actually carried out in this way in classical times.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1420788/

Bold type mine. I would think that the above statement may have little influence of the causes of death by crucifixion, however.

I would re-state that since none of us were present at the crucifixion of Jesus, none of us know the actual circumstances of the event. This is all I'm trying to say, with respect.

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The way you die on a cross can be counted in minutes or hours depending on how it is done.

If you give the body support, you can be there for days on end, if you are not given support you will die within minutes.... how?

Jesus was offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture which he refused to drink. Jesus was thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood patibulum (the cross section of the cross).

p13.jpg

The legionnaire felt for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drove a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moved to the other side and repeated the action, being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement.

Map_Nails.jpg

The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes (the vertical section of the cross) and the titulus reading, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” is nailed in place.

The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified.

Feet1.jpg

As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain — the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.

As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.

Respiration1.jpg

Jesus experienced hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins -- a terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart.

It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain.

A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid. Some translations say vinegar but that is basically the same thing. Wine is fermented grapejuice and so is vinegar. Vinegar is actually derived from the french word vin aigre which simply put is "sour wine" which in turn is derived from the Latin vinum aegrum meaning "feeble wine".

The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.

Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: “And immediately there came out blood and water.” That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Jesus died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

Spear1.jpg

In short, how you are placed on the cross determines the length of your stay on the cross.

Jor-el,

Oh my word that upset me, poor Jesus and anyone else who has suffered a death so terrible, it made me weep :cry:

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Posted (edited)

Jor-el,

Oh my word that upset me, poor Jesus and anyone else who has suffered a death so terrible, it made me weep :cry:

It's supposed to upset people, especially when we, living in our enclosed and protected societies hear scoffing and unbelief on such inventive ways to kill another human being and make it sound like a walk in the park and that someone could actually survive such an experience.

Edited by Jor-el
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The way you die on a cross can be counted in minutes or hours depending on how it is done.

If you give the body support, you can be there for days on end, if you are not given support you will die within minutes.... how?

Jesus was offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture which he refused to drink. Jesus was thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood patibulum (the cross section of the cross).

p13.jpg

The legionnaire felt for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drove a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moved to the other side and repeated the action, being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement.

Map_Nails.jpg

The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes (the vertical section of the cross) and the titulus reading, “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews,” is nailed in place.

The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed. The Victim is now crucified.

Feet1.jpg

As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists, excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain — the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves.

As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen.

Respiration1.jpg

Jesus experienced hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins -- a terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart.

It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain.

A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid. Some translations say vinegar but that is basically the same thing. Wine is fermented grapejuice and so is vinegar. Vinegar is actually derived from the french word vin aigre which simply put is "sour wine" which in turn is derived from the Latin vinum aegrum meaning "feeble wine".

The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary.

Apparently, to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: “And immediately there came out blood and water.” That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Jesus died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

Spear1.jpg

In short, how you are placed on the cross determines the length of your stay on the cross.

There's one slight modification to your posting above. That being the ossuary remains of Johanan ben Ha-galgol, found in 1968, which showed evidence of the spike being driven through the side of his heel bone and not from the front. Whether this was the customary way of doing so or he was an exception is anyone's guess. In any case the spike wouldn't have been between the toe bones as in your pictures above.

cormac

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Posted (edited)

Scourging alone, was said to kill many men in those days and left many disabled.. .Jesus was a victim of scourging, ( and that again is most brutal and can kill easy ) mixed in with the other tortures...By the time he was placed on to the cross, his body was already exhausted from the scourging and the many acts of full torture, he was sweating blood. his body was done for ... Given how he was built as a man ( thin, medium or large build ) He may have lasted a tad longer IF he were large enough build and his body had extra strength...If not, he was done for within mins...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Posted (edited)

There's one slight modification to your posting above. That being the ossuary remains of Johanan ben Ha-galgol, found in 1968, which showed evidence of the spike being driven through the side of his heel bone and not from the front. Whether this was the customary way of doing so or he was an exception is anyone's guess. In any case the spike wouldn't have been between the toe bones as in your pictures above.

cormac

Quite true, but the methodology used was not the same in every place, it may even be that the legionnaires had personal choices on how to go about the crucifixion of an individual. We not only have a number of different types of crosses used...

crosses.gif

We have the simple Stake, we have a X cross, we have the tradional Tri-Cross and then we have an T cross and the Y cross as well.

But we also have the victims being nailed as shown and then we have variations like being crucified upside down feet splayed apart as suggested by the X cross variation and a number of others that I haven't even thought of.

Crucified_Man_Nail_Thru_Heel_1.jpg

johanan2.jpg

cross.gif

Reconstruction of the crucifixion of Yehohanan ben Hagkol

(The Guy you mentioned in your post)

cross-upsidedown-lipsius-p670.jpg

4.gif

nero cross
Edited by Jor-el

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Quite true, but the methodology used was not the same in every place, it may even be that the legionnaires had personal choices on how to go about the crucifixion of an individual. We not only have a number of different types of crosses used...

~SNIP~

Never claimed the method was the same in every place. Just wanted to point out that the method you're pictures represent was not the only method used. Whether a person was crucified in the way that Johanan ben Ha-galgol was or by any of the methods you showed in your last post one's ability to raise themselves up to allow the lungs to expand would be greatly hindered if not nearly impossible. In the method Johanan was crucified if he were even able to lift himself up, even by the slightest degree, he'd be not so much lifting himself up as pushing himself out. Which would do more damage to the arm furthest from his knees. Possibly dislocating his shoulder or even tearing said arm off the nail.

cormac

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Never claimed the method was the same in every place. Just wanted to point out that the method you're pictures represent was not the only method used. Whether a person was crucified in the way that Johanan ben Ha-galgol was or by any of the methods you showed in your last post one's ability to raise themselves up to allow the lungs to expand would be greatly hindered if not nearly impossible. In the method Johanan was crucified if he were even able to lift himself up, even by the slightest degree, he'd be not so much lifting himself up as pushing himself out. Which would do more damage to the arm furthest from his knees. Possibly dislocating his shoulder or even tearing said arm off the nail.

cormac

Agreed, never meant to imply disagreement on your part. All the various methods used were ultimately lethal, even if the person was removed after a few hours of hanging there. josephus recounts an episode where he found 3 people he knew who had been crucified by the Romans and when he mentioned this to Titus, he had them removed from their crosses, but two of them died anyway.

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The Bile in vinegar is nothing but cheap wine called Posca and Jesus did not drink any of it at all, not one drop, or it would also have been recorded that he did.

Jesus was offered it, but he refused. Or was it myrh in wine? Two different gospel accounts. Two different versions. Each written a century or more after the fact. Come to think of it, if we can't rely on the gospels for this important detail, how can we know whether he drank anything or not?

I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here. I haven't got a clue what happened. But then, neither does anybody else. You're welcome to your myth. The only "fact" I have to work with is that the gospels were not written by eye-witnesses.

Doug

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Agreed, never meant to imply disagreement on your part. All the various methods used were ultimately lethal, even if the person was removed after a few hours of hanging there. josephus recounts an episode where he found 3 people he knew who had been crucified by the Romans and when he mentioned this to Titus, he had them removed from their crosses, but two of them died anyway.

No problem. BTW you might want to redo your reconstruction of Johanan ben Ha-galgol's crucifixion based on the information given here:

In 1968, an ancient burial site was uncovered in Jerusalem containing about thirty-five bodies. It was determined that most of these had suffered violent deaths in the Jewish uprising against Rome in A.D. 70. One of these was a man named Yohanan Ben Ha-galgol. He was about twenty-four to twenty-eight years old, had a cleft palate, and a seven-inch nail was still driven through both his feet. The feet had been turned outward so that the square nail could be hammered through at the heel, just inside the Achilles tendon. This would have bowed the legs outward as well so that they could not have been used for support on the cross. The nail had gone through a wedge of acacia wood, then through the heels, then into an olive wood beam. There was also evidence that similar spikes had been put between the two bones of each lower arm. These had caused the upper bones to be worn smooth as the victim repeatedly raised and lowered himself to breathe (breathing is restricted with the arms raised). Crucifixion victims had to lift themselves to free the chest muscles and, when they grew too weak to do so, died by suffocation. Yohanan's legs were crushed by a blow, consistent with the common use of the Roman crucifragium (John 19:31-32).

http://www.jashow.org/Articles/_PDFArchives/theological-dictionary/TD3W0600.pdf

The legs you show are in the wrong position according to this and you don't show nails through the arms.

cormac

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Jesus was offered it, but he refused. Or was it myrh in wine? Two different gospel accounts. Two different versions. Each written a century or more after the fact. Come to think of it, if we can't rely on the gospels for this important detail, how can we know whether he drank anything or not?

I'm just playing the Devil's Advocate here. I haven't got a clue what happened. But then, neither does anybody else. You're welcome to your myth. The only "fact" I have to work with is that the gospels were not written by eye-witnesses.

Doug

They are actually the very same thing Doug.

Myrrh is bitter and so is gall, but both were mixed with wine, Now the question you must ask yourself is are these two seperate things?

"gall" is not a thing or plant, but rather a description of the taste wheras we know Myrrh to be exactly that, a bitter spice.... Only Myrrh is a logical explanation for both verses even though it is only actually used in Mark.

As well as the fact that Myrh is an analegesic, allowing the pain to be diminished and blurred, gall has no equivilant except as expression of the taste of the mixture.

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No problem. BTW you might want to redo your reconstruction of Johanan ben Ha-galgol's crucifixion based on the information given here:

http://www.jashow.or...ry/TD3W0600.pdf

The legs you show are in the wrong position according to this and you don't show nails through the arms.

cormac

Which image does not reflect the reconstruction? there were actually two of them, one of which evidence the legs bowed outward.

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