Gibraltar: a 300-year-old debate...

[keithisco]

Spain is going through a particularly tough time of austerity measures and huge unemployment (expected to reach 28% in 2014) so what do you do? You bring up the old chestnut of Sovereignty over Gibraltar to try to maintain National Cohesion.

During referenda on Sovereignty the Gibraltarians have regularly voted NO (c98% of the population) to shared sovereignty. Gibraltar was Legally ceded to the UK in 1713, and the per capita annual average income of the rocks citizens is 47,000 euros - compare that with the 17,000 euros of its Putative Ruling Region of Andalucia!!

Jealousy, greed , and covetousness spring to mind IMO

Link to article courtesy of El Pais: http://elpais.com/el...500_957275.html

Edited July 21, 2013 by keithisco

[spud the mackem]

Politicians at it again,its the same with the Argies and the Falklands.I wonder if the Spanish workers who work in Gibralter on good wages agree with this.Both Gib and the Falklands are going to stay British.Spain gets a lot of income from Brit tourists,so why "poke the Bear".

[keithisco]

Yep Spud... and with an estimated 8000 Spanish crossing the border daily to work there brings in a significant amount of foreign exchange to Andalucia. have just started looking into moving my own business to Gib as there is no Inheritance Tax there (there shouldn't be a tax on dying )and I am getting older!!

[stevewinn]

you only have to look at the goings on in the waters around Gib, three times in as many months our foreign office as had contact the Spanish Government with concerns, - incidents such as Spanish Guardia Civil vessel shooting at a jet skier in British waters around Gibraltar. it comes on the back of loads of incidents. small in scale but enough to get our attention. they often send Spanish fishing boats into our water often escorted by Guardia Civil vessels. its a storm in a teacup that can quickly escalate.

[keithisco]

you only have to look at the goings on in the waters around Gib, three times in as many months our foreign office as had contact the Spanish Government with concerns, - incidents such as Spanish Guardia Civil vessel shooting at a jet skier in British waters around Gibraltar. it comes on the back of loads of incidents. small in scale but enough to get our attention. they often send Spanish fishing boats into our water often escorted by Guardia Civil vessels. its a storm in a teacup that can quickly escalate.

The incident you mention is an horrific escalation of Spanish petulance:

"He said his friend pointed out a police officer aiming a metre-long weapon at them and added: “Suddenly, shots were fired, and I had to perform evasive manoeuvres to avoid being an easy target and also to avoid being run down by the substantially larger vessel.”

Link to article courtesy the "Express": http://www.express.c...altar-jet-skier

I am pretty sure that there are International Maritime Laws that have been broken here, and indeed Spanish Law requires a sufficiently good reason to discharge a firearm that MUST include either a direct threat to the Officer's Safety (does not need to be a Lethal threat), or to the safety of another person.

Picture of Gibraltar Phone Box and Old Style "Bobby" courtesy the "Express"

Edited July 21, 2013 by keithisco

[Mr.United_Nations]

The reason is because Gibraltar is financially stable and Gibraltar alone won't save Spain

[keithisco]

The reason is because Gibraltar is financially stable and Gibraltar alone won't save Spain

With an annual Growth rate of currently 7.5% it is the envy of Spain and to be honest, much of the Western World.

Looking at Spain's own "colonies" (Ceuta and Melilla), not ceded by Treaty, their growth rates are in the negative., because thar follow the Spanish system.

Edited July 21, 2013 by keithisco

[questionmark]

So, why would the Spanish politicians not use the age-old recipe to rally some support? It is always the same, in dire times the old phrase " You aspeaka Aspanish? Puès Gibraltar Español!" comes out of the tool kit. No relevance to the real politics, just populism.

[spud the mackem]

Yep Spud... and with an estimated 8000 Spanish crossing the border daily to work there brings in a significant amount of foreign exchange to Andalucia. have just started looking into moving my own business to Gib as there is no Inheritance Tax there (there shouldn't be a tax on dying )and I am getting older!!

Gib is a British extension,its ok and the people are friendly,even the Spanish who work there.If I had a choice of living somewhere other than England I guess Gib would be the choice.

[stevewinn]

Spain considers Gibraltar border fee.

Spain is considering a 50 euro (£43) fee to cross its border with Gibraltar, amid a row over an artificial reef.

Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo told a Spanish newspaper the proceeds would "help fishermen affected by the destruction of fishing grounds".

The latest tensions come after the British territory began work on the concrete reef, which Spain claims infringes the rights of its fishermen.

The UK Foreign Office said it was "concerned" at the minister's comments.

Britain has governed Gibraltar for 300 years but Spain disputes UK sovereignty over the rocky outcrop on its southern tip.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23567976

David Cameron 'seriously concerned' by Gibraltar events.

Prime Minister David Cameron is "seriously concerned" about the escalation of tensions at the Spanish-Gibraltarian border.

Spain has said it is considering a range of proposals including a new 50 euro (£43) fee to cross the border with the British territory.

Mr Cameron said none of the measures had been raised with the UK government.

Spain's latest move follows increased vehicle searches at the border last weekend, causing major delays.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23574507

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UvNRBVIqkE[/media]

Here is a Youtube clip of Spanish Guardia civil boat harassing us in British waters, you can see a British Police patrol boat and a Royal Navy Patrol boat. then we have the Spanish trying to impose a cross border fee. if you cross from Gib, British overseas territory. into Spain, doesnt this break EU rules. lets see how the EU treat this. i wouldnt hold my breath in them siding on the side of the UK. you watch.

Edited August 5, 2013 by stevewinn

[stevewinn]

Jet fighter threat to the Falkland Islands.

SPAIN is selling a fleet of Mirage fighter jets to Argentina in a £10million deal that fuels suspicions over relations between the nations who are both opposed to British territorial possessions,

President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner approved the deal, which will give Argentina the capability to attack the Falklands with laser-guided bombs. The 20 aircraft sold to the Argentine military are at Spain’s Albacete air base and will be shipped to Tandil air base south of Buenos Aires.

Built in France, the multi-role fighter has a top speed of 1,320mph and a range of 500 miles, boosting Argentina’s ability to “pester” the Falklands from its southern air bases. Spain will provide spares and a training simulator and will train the initial batch of Argentine air force pilots selected from the military’s Fuerza Aerea Argentina Grupo 6 de Caza of the 6th Air Brigade.

However, a senior RAF source said: “It will take eight months to get them fully operational and then we may get an indication of their intent and if they decide to fly the aircraft into UK air space.

“If the Argentines start playing games and escalate the tension we will see more RAF aircraft being deployed to the Falklands.”

Last night Gibraltar’s chief minister Fabian Picardo said: “Spain has always linked Argentina’s claims on the Falklands with its own position on Gibraltar.

“Both nations are in economic dire straits and frequently attempt to boost each other’s claims.”

Edited August 6, 2013 by stevewinn

[Finity]

This is probably a distraction tactic by the Spanish government to take attention away from the Spanish president, who currently being investigated for being involved in a billion euro corruption scandal.

But Spain won't really gain anything by getting Gibraltar back. If they did get it, all that would happen is it would fall in to disrepair and be abandonned like other areas of Spain. The base would shut down and all the troops and civil servents would get re-deployed, then businesses would move out because it would no longer be a tax haven run by a far wealthier nation (and a lot of the business there is related to the millitary anyway). There would be nothing there after that and around 10,000 Spanish citizens would be out of a job.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Finity

[Subsonicjourno]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/falklandislands/10227319/Argentina-President-Cristina-Kirchner-renews-Fakland-Islands-claim-at-UN-meeting.html Old witch face is at it again

[Mr.United_Nations]

I dont think the UN can do anything, isn't what they said? that Argentina needs to talk to Britain about the Islands. However Britian has said talk to the Islanders, but Argentina has refused to talk to them because they dont recognize them as British territory. The Falkland Islanders want to talk to Argentina but they won't talk to them. The Falkland Islanders want to remain British, now if Argentina refuses that but it has too! It may force them to take drastic action which may be suicidal for the government and harm relations around the world

So if Argentina complains then i don't see the UN helping them

[Aggie]

If you meet Argentines you'll find out that most are nice people and they don't want another war with the UK.

More than a million Argentines visited the UK last year, bringing lots of money here, and they actually love the British culture.....they younger generations are different.

Politicians are creating all these problems, not the common people, let's not forget that.

[Mr.United_Nations]

If you meet Argentines you'll find out that most are nice people and they don't want another war with the UK.

More than a million Argentines visited the UK last year, bringing lots of money here, and they actually love the British culture.....they younger generations are different.

Politicians are creating all these problems, not the common people, let's not forget that.

When Argentina invaded the first time all the protests stopped and when they got the Islands for a time, everyone was celebrating.

If Argentina invaded again now, the same thing will happen.

The common Argentinians are those who work hard for a living for their family and themselves.

I bet those that go the UK dont even care about themselves

[Aggie]

When Argentina invaded the first time all the protests stopped and when they got the Islands for a time, everyone was celebrating.

If Argentina invaded again now, the same thing will happen.

The common Argentinians are those who work hard for a living for their family and themselves.

I bet those that go the UK dont even care about themselves

Many British have been to Argentina and viceversa and many Argentines have signed petitions to let the Falklands be.

The two countries used to have strong connections and a big percentage of Argentines have Welsh roots, in some small villages they even speak Welsh!

You can't say that those that visited here don't care about themselves, this is the year 2013, 1982 is long gone and people are different. Talk to them and you'll see they are not much different than you, they don't want enemies and they don't want their young ones to die for another useless war.

[stevewinn]

If you meet Argentines you'll find out that most are nice people and they don't want another war with the UK.

More than a million Argentines visited the UK last year, bringing lots of money here, and they actually love the British culture.....they younger generations are different.

Politicians are creating all these problems, not the common people, let's not forget that.

how can that be true when they teach their children in school from day one the Falkland islands are Argentine by right, and are brought up with that notion. one day when their fortunes are better they'll attempt to re-take the islands. make no mistake about it. the quicker we get our two aircraft carriers operational the better. we have a hole in our capability until at least 2018. - we cast our eyes to europe and we have Spain banging the drum over sovereignty of Gibraltar. its a gently reminder why its important for the UK to retain and maintain its ability to project force around the global. ALONE if the need arises.

[Space Commander Travis]

The Spaniards do seem to have rather a chip on their shoulder about this. Why should possession of Gibraltar be of such importance to them? It can hardly be of great strategic importance to them in the modern geopolitical landscape. Maybe they've still got a grudge about the Armada.

[questionmark]

The Spaniards do seem to have rather a chip on their shoulder about this. Why should possession of Gibraltar be of such importance to them? It can hardly be of great strategic importance to them in the modern geopolitical landscape. Maybe they've still got a grudge about the Armada.

Nobody really cares about Gibraltar... but is sure makes a good distraction if the Spanish PM is accused of corruption. Every time one of them is in hot water the big G is on the table again.

Edit: This is what I am talking about:

Spanish PM Mariano Rajoy admits 'mistake' over scandal

Embattled Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy has admitted to MPs that he made a mistake in trusting a disgraced former colleague.

But he told MPs claims he was corrupt were "lies and manipulations", and again defied calls for his resignation.

Mr Rajoy is appearing in parliament to answer claims over illegal payments from a slush fund run by the Popular Party's ex-treasurer, Luis Barcenas.

The claims sparked widespread anger and anti-government protests.

Read more

Edited August 7, 2013 by questionmark

[spud the mackem]

Just how far will the Spanish go ?.They keep sticking their toes over the line to see what the Brit reaction will be, but I reckon they wont step over it because they know that they will come in second.Is this a precedent for 2 Euro countries having a row,and if so will the Euro Parliament step in to cool it. I guess its a lot of Sabre Rattling to divert their peoples attention away from their sad economy.Buenas noches.

[stevewinn]

its now being reported that the Royal Navy Response Force Task Group is to call at Gibraltar. - leading the way Royal Navy Flagship. HMS Bulwark. two frigates, one confirmed as HMS Westminister other likely to be HMS Portland. two type 45 destroyers. aircraft carrier/ HMS Illustrious. all are on their way to the med as pre-planned exercise. but the call into Gibraltar for some of the ships is not. the old gunboat approach.

HMS BULWARK

HMS Illustrious

type 23 Frigate.

type 45 Destroyer

RFA Mounts Bay

[spud the mackem]

Its enough to give the Spanish hiccups haha.

[Mr.United_Nations]

They always stop in Gibraltar though, nothing new

[stevewinn]

They always stop in Gibraltar though, nothing new

true, but not all ships do, in such large numbers this time its definitely being done as a show of solidarity with Gib plus political posturing. it'll be interesting because as they pass through the med they are going to be calling at a Spanish port (the name escapes me right now) we'll also see ports of call in Italy, Malta, Turkey before some of the ships carry on into the East/Far East. to continue their deterrent and diplomatic capabilities. its funny how things pan out it was government policy in the 1970's to withdraw British Ships from east of suez. now here we are reaffirming out presence in the area. as we sleep in our beds. the Royal Navy is hard at work continuing to protect not only our trade routes, keeping sea lanes open but protecting our economy. tackling piracy and terrorism and ready to provide support including humanitarian assistance to our partners in the region - ships currently east of suez. it gets little mention but Iran keeps dropping shipping mines which float randomly around in the currents - seas. hence the reason for us having so many mine hunters in the region. were not alone the Royal Navy continues to carry out these missions along side US and other coalition partners including French, Dutch, Australian and Canadian Navies.

HMS DARING

HMS DRAGON

HMS KENT type 23 Frigate

RFA DILLIGENCE

RFA CARDIGAN BAY

HMS SHOREHAM minehuters

HMS ATHERSTONE

HMS RAMSEY

HMS QUORN

Edited August 9, 2013 by stevewinn