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Big Bad Voodoo

Voyages before voyages

42 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hello Umers!

„To remain ignorant of things that happened before you were born is to remain a child.“

Cicero

Since I dont wont that you remain children…

In this thread I want to show evidence about knowledge before knowledge. Particulary about disocvery of continents. Often we hear how Columbus discover America yet we know that he did not. Also we often hear about Piri Reis map. In this thread I will show that Piri Reis map and Viking discovery of America are just use as kind of mislead when we discuss about ancient knowledge.

I often remeber story about Russian explorer Semyon Ivanovich Dezhnyov (1605 – 1673) who discover Bering Strait in 1648, 80 years before Vitus Bering did. He sailed from the Kolyma River on the Arctic Ocean to the Anadyr River on the Pacific. Yet we all know Bering strait as Bering not Dezhnyov strait.

1.

In 1448 Portugees Bartolomeu Dias reached Indian Ocean and in 1442 Christopher Columbus reach America. Those voyages are potrayed as beging of Age of discovery.

In 1505 Nicolay de Caveri drawn ,now known as Caverio Map. Caverio map shows North America from Florida to Hudson river. Yet first people that set foot on North america were Ponce de Leon in 1512, Vasco Nunez de Baloba in 1513 ,Giovanni da Verrazzano in 1523, Lucas da Ayllon in 1529, Esteban Gomez in 1525.

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Martin Waldseemüller map from 1507 is first map to use the name "America". 5 years before Ponce de Leon came in America.

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Christopher Columbus was born in Republic of Genoa and perhaps he had knowledge about America not by Inuits who allegedly he met in Scotland but by Venetians who had Marco Polo map of Alaska. Also Columbus discovery was nothing special not because Vikings, or Polo(?) or Inuits or perhaps Polynesians and Arab contact. People knew about America before him. Its because when Ottomans rise and Pax Mongolica ended Europeans search for new way to far east. In 1448 Portugees Bartolomeu Dias reached Indian Ocean and in 1442 Christopher Columbus reach America. In that light Bartolomeu acomplished his goal and not just that. He find new way and traveled greater distance then Columbus. (Ofcourse when we ignore Phonecians). As Columbus greatest discovery I would say is his contact with Mayans on canou.

Nicolo Zeno from Venice in 1558 published Zeno map-map of North Atlantic. According to Zeno, map dates from 1390s when Zeno brothers under Prince Zichmini reached north America. Historians look on this map as hoax since there is many non existing Islands such as Frisland. On Frisland Zeno brothers spent some time according to letters he also find with map. Frisland island also exist on Gerardus Mercator map. Mercator was famous cartographer who first use term Atlas for collection of maps and new projection of straight lines/sailing courses. Before Mercator we used portolan charts which are navigational maps based on compass directions and estimated distances observed by the pilots at sea. The oldest extant portolan is the Carta Pisana c. 1296. Also cartographer Angelino Dulcert produced a portolan in 1339.

...

Edited by the L

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When we talk about non existing islands we must mention Ptolemy map where we can see 100 islands non existing islands in Aegan sea and Med sea. Could it be that knowledge about them dates before rise of sea level? To add to that Ptolemy map of Greenland show North Europe, Sweeden under the ice.

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Venetian Zuane Pizzigano made 1424 portolan chart, the first known to depict the Antillia island group in Atlantic Ocean. Map has notes on Portugese. I couldnt get away of feeling that Venetians were good with Portugeese and that Spainyards were look on Genoa as their friends. Interestingly this map have Madeira island discovered 1418 by Spainyards.

Antilla islands are mythical or once real islands in Atlantic ocean. Antilla, Satanazes, Ymana and Tanmar. Could it be that Venetians discover America? Whats more interesting that on his map there is island Braxil west to india. (Brasil). After Pizzigano map many Europeans made maps with Antillia island on it. Somehow Antilla reminds me on Atlantis.

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This is Pareto map 1455

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2.

In 1498 Portugees Vasco de Gama reach far east.

3.

In 1522 Spanish Ferdinand Magellan made 1st circulmnavigation of world.

4.

In 1606 Dutch Willem Janszoon discover Australia.

French cartographer Jean Rotz was member of Dieppe maps schools and he traveled to Brazil and Sumatra. Dieppe map schools was named because of maps made in Dieppe from 1540 to 1560 with some great cartographer Pierre Desceliers, Johne Rotz, Guillaume Le Testu, Guillaume Brouscon and Nicolas Desliens. Anyway Jean Rotz have drawn Australia century earlier then Dutch discovered it.

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Also Cornelis de Jode, cartographer from Antwerp was son of Gerard de Jode also a cartograpgher. Cornelius map from 1593 shows Australia.

Also there is map from Portuguese Pedro Reinel (1462-1542) of Indian ocean which show Australia. Pedro and his son Jorge and Lopo Homem made Miller Atlas (1519). Reinel Atlantic Chart of c. 1504 is the earliest known nautical chart with a scale of latitudes. Sadly I cant found map with Australia in Indian ocean.

5.

In 1642 Dutch Abel Tasman discover New Zeland.

6.

In 1772 Dutch Jacob Roggeveen discover Easter Island.

7.

In 1778 James Cook discover Hawaii.

8.

In 1820 Russians Mikhail Lazarev and Fabian Gottlieb von Bellingshauson discover Antartica. Although from Pythagoras onwards we have maps showing Terra Australis Incognita one map I found interesting. Italian cartographer,decorater Francesco Rosselli (1445 - 1513)who was born in Florence opened first shop of maps. He worked for King of Hungary Matthias Corvinus in Hungary, he have been in Venice. Rossellis 1508 map was first oval projection map and on it we have Antartic. 300 years earlier then Russians discovered it.

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Didnt pass 200 years after discovery of Antartica till today and in that time we discovered new planets,galaxies and send veichles on Mars. From Antartica to Mars is less time then from Columbus to Mikhail Lazarev. Makes you wonder.

In 1737 French Philippe Buache drawn map which he copied from ancient greek maps.On that map we can see Anctartica without ice.

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Furthermore, Oronteus Fineus map drwan in 1532 by French cartographer Oronce Fine shows Antartica with no ice cap and Greenland as two separated islands. How come? Was there civilization who had knowledge about Antaritica before it got ice cap?

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Neither Bering, neither Columbus, neither Bartolomeu Dias ,netiher Vasco de Gama, neither Ferdinand Magellan, neither Willem Janszoon, neither Mikhail Lazarev and Fabian Gottlieb von Bellingshauson discover anything. „History is the autobiography of a madman“ said Alexander Herzen. When we think on Holocaust and similar events we know thats true. But that „madman“ also linked wrong people with some achivements and record them. While true heros remain mysteries.

Portugese Lopo Homem map of 1519 also show Antartica.

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9.

Now back to Berring strait. We often hear about Piri Reis but more interesting cartographer is Hajji ahmed. Hajji Ahmed in 16th century drawn world map. It is said that he used earlier maps to drawn his own. In his map we see Sibir Alaska bridge. So is it possible that someone drawn map when Sibir and America were linked with land bridge?

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When I touched Muslim cartography I will now speak about famous Piri reis map drawn by Hadji Ahmed Muhiddin Piri (1465-1553). In fact fragment of world map from 1513 because thats what it is. According to Admiral Piri (Reis means Captain/Admiral), map was drawn based on 20 older maps and planispheres and Columbus map. Its badly drawn map. Amazon river was drawn twice, Caribbean islands badly positioned and drawned. But again his map shows ,to me, similarites with Camerio map of America. Indicating that he probably did copy from earlier maps as he said.

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„Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe.“ H.G. Wells, The Outline of History. It seems that our ancestors choose catastrophe since we have their outlines of their knowledge. I hope you Umers will choose education instead.

Among many Anglo saxon inventors I would separate John Harrison (1693-1776)who invented marine chronometer which finally allowed navigators to calculate exact position of ship on longitude. But even before him Dutch used fine way to messure east west position by clocks. So if Dutch could do it why no Phoenicians or Greeks couldnt do it. In the end you only need clocks for it.

Also many interesting maps exists for their stories. Marco Polos map with Alaska on it. Cantino world map mad by Cantino Alberto who was sent by Duke of Ferrara Ercole I d Este as spy. He went to Portugal as merchant interested in horse trading and come back in 1502 with this map which has Brazil coast on it discover two years before.

Kangnido map from 1470 which was created in Korea by Yi Hoe and Kwon Kun show far east. In production of this map they used now lost Li Zemin world map. Map have 35 African names. South of Africa is drawn and Orange river before Europeans reach south of Africa. On this map there is lighthouse of Alexandria and Germany (Alumangia).

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When we spoke about Africa we must mention The Da Ming Hun Yi Tu world map by unknown author. Anyway its created during Ming dynasty in 1389. Some suggest it was done to Hongwu Emeror after he in 1368 expelled Yuan dynasty/Mongols.

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The end.

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Posted (edited)

:blink::rolleyes: Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

I wonder how sceptics will explain above.

Start with this if you can:

Rossellis 1508 map and on it we have Antartic 300 years earlier then Russians discovered it.

Rotz have drawn (1550s) Australia half century earlier then Dutch discovered it in 1606.

In 1737 French Philippe Buache drawn map on which we can see Anctartica without ice.

Edited by the L

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wicked post man! all im going to say

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Your chief problem here is your benefit of hindsight. You know exactly what the Earth looks like, and the people making these maps did not. They had no effective measures of longitude (and consequently mileage) and no experience with the issues of projecting a round surface onto a flat map, and the distortions that inevitably produces. Abd these are only two issues.

You therefore jump to the erroneous conclusion that things this people put on their maps to indicate unknown or speculative lands "are" or might be the things you know are certainly there, so then they magically know mysterious things you claim they couldn't have.

For example, you assume (erroneously) that the Hohem maps 'shows' Antarica, although that continent does /not/ stretch from Brazil all the way to Indonesia, as the map suggests. And you convenient forget to mention it barely shows North America at all. You also conveniently don't mention that there appears to be a great deal of land north of Scandanavia that doesn't exist. The map therefore is not amazingly accurate or particularly prescient.

In your ignorance of period cartography, you project all your own (modern) assumptions about what maps are and how they work, ignoring at your own peril what the makers of these objects were doing and what they thought they were showing.

Or another example, "So if Dutch could do it why no Phoenicians or Greeks couldnt do it. In the end you only need clocks for it."

There were, quite frankly, a /lot/ of things the Dutch, with 2,000+ years of additional technology could do that the Phoenicians and Greeks could not. You might as well as why the Greek didn't print things or why the Phoenicians didn't invent the microscope.

And as a last shot, this is what Antartica looks like without ice. Doesn't look too much like anything on any of your maps, does it?

Antarctica+Without+Ice.jpg

--Jaylemurph

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You therefore jump to the erroneous conclusion that things this people put on their maps to indicate unknown or speculative lands "are" or might be the things you know are certainly there, so then they magically know mysterious things you claim they couldn't have.

Just wanted to add that many ancient map makers would include "rumored" lands and speculative islands/lands on their maps.

If I remember right, most maps... like the mentioned Piri Reis map, were put together from dozens of other maps, with the map maker picking and chosing what he particularly thought went were.

Most of the "Explorer" maps were not actually made by the explorers themselves, but by map makers after the fact, from captain's logs and such. After all no explorer explored and mapped all of Asia, Africa and Europe himself, they were attempting to build on what came before.

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Posted (edited)

Jay as matter of fact you answer alone why Antartica on my maps different from yours. Although I could easily recognize it on some maps.

Furthermore Dutch sailed with help of clocks. Can provide more info. And far as I know Greeks and Phonechians have had clocks/messuring time devices.

So no ignorance here.

Did you seen Rosselli map of Antartica? 300 years earlier.

And what do you say about others maps? ...Like Rotz one?

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

Jay you can read it here. :tu:

About Dutch

http://www.unexplain...showentry=27795

Key problem in navigation was determination of longitude. Latidute could be determined easily. Farther south you go more southern constellations you could see. Longitude required precise time keeping. An accurate shipboard clock would continue to keep time in your home port. The rising and setting of stars would give you local time and difference between the two would tell you how far east and west you had gone.

Thats why Dutch start producing accurate clocks (Plus astronomy). And thats why I think that Antikythera mechanism was clock. But I dont wont to go offtopic. I know you disagree.

Edited by the L

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wicked post man! all im going to say

I like it myself. Thanks.

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And thats why I think that Antikythera mechanism was clock.

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Old maps which today's viewers claim to show Antarctica are actually showing a hypothetical continent that was first proposed in order to "balance out" the land masses that were known to exist north of the equator. In other words, it was "believed" to exist or the earth would have rolled over (originally.)

The land mass was referred to by several different (some only slightly different) names.

"Terra Australis" (Southern Continent - or land) is usually contained within the name, however. Other names are "Unknown Southern Contenent" etc.

Google it.

This explains the various "Antarcticas" that show up on old maps. Terra Australis does not appear on the Piri Reis map, nor does Antarctica.

Harte

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Old maps which today's viewers claim to show Antarctica are actually showing a hypothetical continent that was first proposed in order to "balance out" the land masses that were known to exist north of the equator. In other words, it was "believed" to exist or the earth would have rolled over (originally.)

The land mass was referred to by several different (some only slightly different) names.

"Terra Australis" (Southern Continent - or land) is usually contained within the name, however. Other names are "Unknown Southern Contenent" etc.

Google it.

This explains the various "Antarcticas" that show up on old maps. Terra Australis does not appear on the Piri Reis map, nor does Antarctica.

Harte

Thats one view.

Piri Reis is irelevant. There are others far interesting maps.

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Could it be that with it they messure time? In the end its called astronomical clock. Also there isnt only mechanism, planetary and most importantly ancient clock.

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Thats one view.

Piri Reis is irelevant. There are others far interesting maps.

It's not a "view," it's a fact.

I agree that Piri Reis is irrelevant though.

Harte

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Jay as matter of fact you answer alone why Antartica on my maps different from yours. Although I could easily recognize it on some maps.

Furthermore Dutch sailed with help of clocks. Can provide more info. And far as I know Greeks and Phonechians have had clocks/messuring time devices.

So no ignorance here.

Did you seen Rosselli map of Antartica? 300 years earlier.

And what do you say about others maps? ...Like Rotz one?

Because you have not taken the time to understand the complexities involved in historically understanding cartographical issues, you don't don't even really understand the problems involved. The issue with determining longitude, for example, isn't merely having a timepiece. It's having a stable work space, notoriously difficult at sea. It's about having sufficient, accurate information about the shape of the planet, solar system, and development of mathematics to calculate longistude. It's having a chronometer of sufficient precision, accuracy and reliability, which the Classical Greeks and Phoenicians certainly did not have, the A. device notwithstanding. I encourage you to read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_longitude

The information provided by Harte and Diechecker are more than enough -- especially in light of the image I provided of an iceless Antartica -- to explain both the how and the why of the Terra Incognita Austalis (well, Terrae Incognitae Australis) in pre-modern maps.

--Jaylemurph

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It's not a "view," it's a fact.

I agree that Piri Reis is irrelevant though.

Harte

You dont know that for sure. Take example of Rotz.

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Because you have not taken the time to understand the complexities involved in historically understanding cartographical issues, you don't don't even really understand the problems involved. The issue with determining longitude, for example, isn't merely having a timepiece. It's having a stable work space, notoriously difficult at sea. It's about having sufficient, accurate information about the shape of the planet, solar system, and development of mathematics to calculate longistude. It's having a chronometer of sufficient precision, accuracy and reliability, which the Classical Greeks and Phoenicians certainly did not have, the A. device notwithstanding. I encourage you to read this:

Jay you either ignored my previous post where I simply explained how time keeping is used for sailing and calculating longitude or either you can understand it.

Either way you need to read it again.

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Posted (edited)

You dont know that for sure. Take example of Rotz.

If I didn't know it for sure, i wouldn't state it as a fact.

The original idea of a southern continent was from Aristotle. He assumed such a continent purely based on symmetry.

The actual "Terra Australis" continent supposedly wrapped around the South Pole was an invention of Schoner.

You can read about this here. I'm sure I've seen Aristotle's Meteorolocia online. You can probably read the other works mentioned at that blog as well, if you look for them online.

Of course, that says nothing about your claim of supposed accurate maps of other previously unexplored territories, I realize.

Harte

Edited by Harte

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