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Elfin

Did the Knights Templar worship Muhammad?

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They were said, at their trial, to worship a being known as Baphomet, which is a medieval French corruption of the name Muhammad (Mahomet). They are further said to have used the word "Yalla" in their worship of Baphomet, which is a corruption of Allah.

Given that they had spent 200 years in Palestine, interacting with Muslims, is this possible, or just propaganda?

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If they had, then that would have been grounds enough for Papal castigation - no need for "praying to a skull" or "homosexual conduct" or the litany of other charges and accusations.

The Muslims were The Enemy (capitalized and all) of Christendom in those days, anyone who was a Muslim was The Enemy, an order of Knights that were Muslims would have been strung up and that justification used and no other.

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If they had, then that would have been grounds enough for Papal castigation - no need for "praying to a skull" or "homosexual conduct" or the litany of other charges and accusations.

The Muslims were The Enemy (capitalized and all) of Christendom in those days, anyone who was a Muslim was The Enemy, an order of Knights that were Muslims would have been strung up and that justification used and no other.

Unless all those other things happened to be true as well, and they were just being thorough.

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Did the ancient Romans believe in reincarnation?

What kind of stupid question is this?

Who cares?

The Knights Templar were founded to provide safe passage to the Holy land....like every other order, the money and power went to their heads. They may or may not have found something profound....until we flatten Rosslyn Chapel and see what is buried beneath....we will never know....pure speculation built on speculation....

Just like the pyramids and the sphinx....we will not know the truth until we are ready to rip them down in the quest for knowledge.

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They were said, at their trial, to worship a being known as Baphomet, which is a medieval French corruption of the name Muhammad (Mahomet). They are further said to have used the word "Yalla" in their worship of Baphomet, which is a corruption of Allah.

Given that they had spent 200 years in Palestine, interacting with Muslims, is this possible, or just propaganda?

Propanda.

I assume you are unaware of the circumstances under which they were persecuted?

Read some history.

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Did the ancient Romans believe in reincarnation?

What kind of stupid question is this?

Who cares?

The Knights Templar were founded to provide safe passage to the Holy land....like every other order, the money and power went to their heads. They may or may not have found something profound....until we flatten Rosslyn Chapel and see what is buried beneath....we will never know....pure speculation built on speculation....

Just like the pyramids and the sphinx....we will not know the truth until we are ready to rip them down in the quest for knowledge.

The Templars had nothing to do with Rosslyn Chapel.

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They were said, at their trial, to worship a being known as Baphomet, which is a medieval French corruption of the name Muhammad (Mahomet). They are further said to have used the word "Yalla" in their worship of Baphomet, which is a corruption of Allah.

Given that they had spent 200 years in Palestine, interacting with Muslims, is this possible, or just propaganda?

First of all, where did you get those informations? Who told you that those words were transliterations for "Mahomet" and "Allah"?

Anyway, I stick with zaphod and Wearer on this.

Even if your historical sources are correct, it's propaganda at best, and if it would have been true, King Philip IV and his allied Pope Clement V could've spared themselves a lot of work and troubles discreting the order.

Unless all those other things happened to be true as well, and they were just being thorough.

They could even be true, but again, if they really worshipped Muhammad, everything else would have faded in comparison.

No need for other accusations.

it would have been like they worshipped directly the devil.

Anyway, simply put, the king of France wanted their money, and made up a fake process in order to discredit them and take their belongings (that were really huge)

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What were charges against them anyway?

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They were said, at their trial, to worship a being known as Baphomet, which is a medieval French corruption of the name Muhammad (Mahomet). They are further said to have used the word "Yalla" in their worship of Baphomet, which is a corruption of Allah.

Given that they had spent 200 years in Palestine, interacting with Muslims, is this possible, or just propaganda?

Well, it's important to remember these admissions were extracted under torture.

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Posted (edited)

What were charges against them anyway?

Many charges against the Templar Knights included heresy.

Historically, such as the trial records say the knights worshipped Baphomet. To answer the OP, no they didn't worship Muhammad. They treated Baphomet as a type of old god, but worshipped Gnosis and the divine.

The knights were accused also of worshipping the Turin Shroud and a skull but there was no evidence for that.

The link with Rosslyn Chapel and the Knights Templar is the Sinclair family.

Edited by Rogue Suga

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Thanks. I read once that some fleet of their ships sailed and never come back after they were accused.

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Many charges against the Templar Knights included heresy.

Historically, such as the trial records say the knights worshipped Baphomet. To answer the OP, no they didn't worship Muhammad. They treated Baphomet as a type of old god, but worshipped Gnosis and the divine.

The knights were accused also of worshipping the Turin Shroud and a skull but there was no evidence for that.

The link with Rosslyn Chapel and the Knights Templar is the Sinclair family.

They weren't accused of worshipping the Turin Shroud at the time, it didn't exist then. That theory came much later.

The link with the Sinclair family is also a much more recent idea.

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Thanks. I read once that some fleet of their ships sailed and never come back after they were accused.

Yes, the Templar fleet left La Rochelle just before the arrests, never to be heard from again. Stories of them arriving in Scotland, or Nova Scotia, however, are modern ideas.

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Posted (edited)

What were charges against them anyway?

Everything you can think of, and then some.

The King needed their money, and in the cangaroo trial that followed, everything plus the kitchen sink was thrown at them. The accusation that they worshipped Baphomet was just one of a litany of made up claims. It was a witch hunt, basically.

I assume Elfie came across this snippet without being aware of the background of the Knights Templar annihilation.

Edited by Zaphod222
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Posted (edited)

Everything you can think of, and then some.

The King needed their money, and in the cangaroo trial that followed, everything plus the kitchen sink was thrown at them. The accusation that they worshipped Baphomet was just one of a litany of made up claims. It was a witch hunt, basically.

I assume Elfie came across this snippet without being aware of the background of the Knights Templar annihilation.

I'd just add that it’s almost interesting that one of numerous theories on origin of the name Baphomet is presented in many articles found through Google search as the only theory. It’s not the only theory. It could be and probably (in my own opinion) is derivation of Greek words, older than the whole Crusades thing.

Almost like it’s necessary even today to keep that witch hunt going, though Vatican has officially acknowledged Knights Templar were innocent in 2007.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Posted (edited)

What were charges against them anyway?

There were 127 charges, though they are, for sake of brevity, usually condensed to a handful. The denial of Christ, spitting on the crucifix (as part of a ceremony), obscene kissing (also as part of a ceremony), idol worship and homosexuality. As regards Islam, the Preceptor of Sidon, a Templar named Matthew le Sarmage, was accused of making himself the blood brother of the Sultan of Egypt. Though this is not proved, even that there was a Preceptor of Sidon. This was all disputed at the time, and besides, no evidence was put forward that the Templars ever became Muslims. As has been stated already, if this were true, then only this charge would be sufficient to condemn them, not 127 items of faked nonsense.

Edited by Tutankhaten-pasheri
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Almost like it’s necessary even today to keep that witch hunt going, though Vatican has officially acknowledged Knights Templar were innocent in 2007.

Well... that's... nice of them? o.o

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Well... that's... nice of them? o.o

:D They’d probably say “what’s 700 years compared to eternity” or something along that lines.

My point was that if Vatican today has no issues with what Knights Templar were (an order powerful enough to be seen as threat to the Catholic church politic/financial monopoly - note I'm not mentioning any spirituality here), where from comes the contemporary need to keep portraying them as heretics?

Is it only to keep them interesting as screenplay and conspiracy material or there’s some truth in numerous legends about secrets Templars successfully kept?

By the way, regarding this thread generally, not your post, Templars were armed protectors of Cathars, and anyone who has ever took a brief look at Catharism knows any “secret Muslim” theory is ridiculous.

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:D They’d probably say “what’s 700 years compared to eternity” or something along that lines.

My point was that if Vatican today has no issues with what Knights Templar were (an order powerful enough to be seen as threat to the Catholic church politic/financial monopoly - note I'm not mentioning any spirituality here), where from comes the contemporary need to keep portraying them as heretics?

Is it only to keep them interesting as screenplay and conspiracy material or there’s some truth in numerous legends about secrets Templars successfully kept?

By the way, regarding this thread generally, not your post, Templars were armed protectors of Cathars, and anyone who has ever took a brief look at Catharism knows any “secret Muslim” theory is ridiculous.

Bogumils and Kathars were gnostics and we know that Bogumils ASAP change their religion to Islam. Isnt?

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Bogumils and Kathars were gnostics and we know that Bogumils ASAP change their religion to Islam. Isnt?

Yes, but it was purely strategic decision. Bosnian Cathars were caught between the hammer and the anvil: the Catholics and the Orthodox, both working on exterminating them.

So they made strategic pact with sultan, and it was very clear they accepted the Islam only formally: sultan personally allowed Bosnians to keep drinking alcohol (!) and Bosnian women to keep dressing according to the existing folk fashion.

But with passing decades, then centuries, the alliance with Turks made Bosnians ever closer to Turkish customs and faith.

Fun fact of our neighbourhood tribal life: recently the Orthodox accused the Muslim of opening a new mosque on an ancient pagan holiday.

So, it’s much more interesting than it seems and we all used to belong to the same old belief.

If you ask me, I’d reinstate it. Because ever since we imported that one god, everything else got divided.

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Posted (edited)

I would rather called Kathars -French Bogumils because they originate from them. :innocent:Interesting fan fact. Those Orthodox who made that accusitions would accuse anyone for anything if you ask me. Im mean now I must check 20 calendars of different religion and ethnic to act...no sense in that.

edit: why size of my letters change? Wierd.

Edited by the L

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Posted (edited)

I would rather called Kathars -French Bogumils because they originate from them. :innocent: Interesting fan fact. Those Orthodox who made that accusitions would accuse anyone for anything if you ask me. Im mean now I must check 20 calendars of different religion and ethnic to act...no sense in that.

edit: why size of my letters change? Wierd.

And Bogumils elsewhere didn’t turn Muslim. Because if there’s no strategic value in alliance with Muslim empire, there’s no reason for turning any branch of Christianity into Islam.

(No offence to any chronically offended, I don’t see any Abrahamic religion as more or less god given and I’m - by god’s will - agnostic.)

The surviving Bogumils were forced into the deepest secrecy possible, the few who escaped the religious genocide.

There are beautiful legends that tell in very poetic way about transformations of Perfecti and the relics they guarded – but the facts behind the legends will probably never be recovered.

The proof was lost, the religion discredited, but on the brighter side, the faith doesn’t need any of these.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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If you ask me, I’d reinstate it. Because ever since we imported that one god, everything else got divided.

Go back far and we were all one, sort of. Tomorrow is a day to make offerings to Veles. Not Veles day of course, that was February, just a minor festival day tomorrow.

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Posted (edited)

And Bogumils elsewhere didn’t turn Muslim. Because if there’s no strategic value in alliance with Muslim empire, there’s no reason for turning any branch of Christianity into Islam.

(No offence to any chronically offended, I don’t see any Abrahamic religion as more or less god given and I’m - by god’s will - agnostic.)

The surviving Bogumils were forced into the deepest secrecy possible, the few who escaped the religious genocide.

There are beautiful legends that tell in very poetic way about transformations of Perfecti and the relics they guarded – but the facts behind the legends will probably never be recovered.

The proof was lost, the religion discredited, but on the brighter side, the faith doesn’t need any of these.

Yes... when Ottomans came in Bosnia lived cca 700 000 Croats Catholics, 30 000 serbs Orthodox, 30 000 Bogumils (Croats and Serbs). Which is realy small number.

Edited by the L

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Go back far and we were all one, sort of. Tomorrow is a day to make offerings to Veles. Not Veles day of course, that was February, just a minor festival day tomorrow.

So we’ll have to go far forward in order to meet as the same again...

The good news is that a lot of people in my area keep the old traditions, though most of them don’t know what’s the origin and purpose of the rituals. But they obviously feel the connection or they wouldn’t perpetuate them so stubbornly :D

Yes... when Ottomans came in Bosnia lived cca 700 000 Croats Catholics, 30 000 serbs Orthodox, 30 000 Bogumils (Croats and Serbs). Which is realy small number.

Listen, you *shakes tentacle* :D

Not today and not in this thread. It belongs to Templars, we can grab each other's throats over Bosnian census elsewhere.

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