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LucidElement

Comparing Atlantis

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More often then not an ATLANTIS thread is formed. For that I am sorry. My buddy and I were talking about Atlantis tonight and I got to thinking, if ATLANTIS is found how would they know its really atlantis? What do they have to compare it too. Plato was 350BC or what not, Atlantis was thousands of years before him. Where did Plato get his information?? But more importantly, I never really stopped to think, how would scientists be sure or even know if it was truly Atlantis?

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What exactly makes you believe there was an Atlantis?

You are right. There really wouldn't be a way to know unless a city sign survived.

"Welcome to Atlantis"

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More often then not an ATLANTIS thread is formed. For that I am sorry. My buddy and I were talking about Atlantis tonight and I got to thinking, if ATLANTIS is found how would they know its really atlantis? What do they have to compare it too. Plato was 350BC or what not, Atlantis was thousands of years before him. Where did Plato get his information?? But more importantly, I never really stopped to think, how would scientists be sure or even know if it was truly Atlantis?

How does one find something that didn't exist? While Plato 'may' have gotten the name Atlantis from Herodotus' earlier story of the Atlantians, the latter places them in Northwest Africa, contemporary to the Garmantians who lived during the first millenium BC*, and at no point makes them out to be any sort of advanced society.

* Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene [180]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hh/hh4180.htm

cormac

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Atlantis could've been Doggerland that vanished. Or it's an island destroyed by the Minoan eruption.

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More often then not an ATLANTIS thread is formed. For that I am sorry. My buddy and I were talking about Atlantis tonight and I got to thinking, if ATLANTIS is found how would they know its really atlantis? What do they have to compare it too. Plato was 350BC or what not, Atlantis was thousands of years before him. Where did Plato get his information?? But more importantly, I never really stopped to think, how would scientists be sure or even know if it was truly Atlantis?

Well, /scientists/ aren't looking for Atlantis, so they're unlikely to be the ones finding it. They tend to be smart enough to recognize a metaphor when they see one in print. People looking for Atlantis -- by definition -- lack that kind of subtle reading comprehension.

But that's the thing with fictional locations: they don't tend to telegraph themselves. Lke someone said above, there aren't signs that read "Narnia welcomes careful drivers." I suppose those who feel obligated to ignore common sense and continue looking for such places have their own little crosses to bear.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted (edited)

I think so many people cling to the Atlantis story because Heinrich Schliemann found Troy....which had also long been considered a myth or allegory.

I have always felt that Plato was probably drawing on some story handed down for generations and used it to make a point.

I have no problem thinking his allegory was based on the volcanic destruction of Santorini. Seems logical to me...but hey...what do I know. It's seems a fine explanation and I "choose" to accept it.

Edited by Jeremiah65
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I have no problem thinking his allegory was based on the volcanic destruction of Santorini. Seems logical to me...but hey...what do I know. It's seems a fine explanation and I "choose" to accept it.

The main point about Atlantis boils down to belief.

People choose to believe it, and that's fine. However, belief is not dependent on reality. You can choose to believe the hideous Plateau of Leng is in southwestern Wisconsin, and you can sincerely and honestly believe that. That does not for an instant mean there's a gateway to a land of nightmares not far from Madison. Someone believing that doesn't mean the greater Wisconsin Convention and Visitor's Bureau should advertise the Plateau being there. Someone believing that doesn't mean the Plateau should be included in Wisconsin geography textbooks or history classes. Someone believing that should not be taken at face value when they show you a sign that says "For Plateau, turn left" absolutely prooves their belief. Someone sincerely believing that should not be trusted when they give you directions to it, and they should not be taken as seriously or with as much (academic or professional) respect as someone who shows the deed to that parcel of property certifying it as a dairy farm.

Belief is belief. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be treated as equals, and they shouldn't be respected equally. There are no facts that justify a belief in a literal Atlantis, and there's only so much credence to be given to anyone who says there is.

--Jaylemurph

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The main point about Atlantis boils down to belief.

People choose to believe it, and that's fine. However, belief is not dependent on reality. You can choose to believe the hideous Plateau of Leng is in southwestern Wisconsin, and you can sincerely and honestly believe that. That does not for an instant mean there's a gateway to a land of nightmares not far from Madison. Someone believing that doesn't mean the greater Wisconsin Convention and Visitor's Bureau should advertise the Plateau being there. Someone believing that doesn't mean the Plateau should be included in Wisconsin geography textbooks or history classes. Someone believing that should not be taken at face value when they show you a sign that says "For Plateau, turn left" absolutely prooves their belief. Someone sincerely believing that should not be trusted when they give you directions to it, and they should not be taken as seriously or with as much (academic or professional) respect as someone who shows the deed to that parcel of property certifying it as a dairy farm.

Belief is belief. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be treated as equals, and they shouldn't be respected equally. There are no facts that justify a belief in a literal Atlantis, and there's only so much credence to be given to anyone who says there is.

--Jaylemurph

Wow, nice. Let's all go with what jaylemurph said...because that pretty much says it all. :tu:

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Wow, nice. Let's all go with what jaylemurph said...because that pretty much says it all. :tu:

Agreed facts are facts - but maybe we should be careful about totally dismissing myth and legends about the ancient world . Although probably much distorted there just might be a grain of truth in them. Troy might be a good example ?

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Atlantis is most likely Antarctica.

Drowned underwater by the angry "Gods" and then frozen solid. Some cite its the greeks who defeated the Atlanteans. If only fishermen were that powerful ... Now if you say the "Greek Gods", then we're talking ...

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Atlantis is most likely Antarctica.

Drowned underwater by the angry "Gods" and then frozen solid. Some cite its the greeks who defeated the Atlanteans. If only fishermen were that powerful ... Now if you say the "Greek Gods", then we're talking ...

The ice of Antarctica sits upon a landmass, which means it was never "drowned" and the ice has been there since before we (Homo sapiens) even existed.

cormac

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The ice of Antarctica sits upon a landmass, which means it was never "drowned" and the ice has been there since before we (Homo sapiens) even existed.

cormac

if you rotate the Earth water remains the same everywhere?

Who's to say we didn't exist back then? Several jumps back in historical origins of man have already been made. I don't see them ending anytime soon. Also, why do you think it was a human civilization?

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Agreed facts are facts - but maybe we should be careful about totally dismissing myth and legends about the ancient world . Although probably much distorted there just might be a grain of truth in them. Troy might be a good example ?

As written about by Plato Atlantis was alleged to be located in a specific location and time and of a specific size and technological capability, which means it's not open to interpretation as being elsewhere/when. That there is no evidence for it archaeologically, genetically, temporally or linguistically pretty much negates the "all opinions are equal" approach as implied above.

cormac

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if you rotate the Earth water remains the same everywhere?

Who's to say we didn't exist back then? Several jumps back in historical origins of man have already been made. I don't see them ending anytime soon. Also, why do you think it was a human civilization?

No it doesn't, the water displacement changes depending upon what landmass is added to or subtracted from a given location. That should be obvious.

We, as in Homo sapiens, didn't. And that's the only thing relevant to a discussion of Atlantis.

I don't 'think' it was any kind of civilization. But as written by Plato it was presented as a human civilization. Your attempt at reinterpreting what Plato claimed is irrelevant.

cormac

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The main point about Atlantis boils down to belief.

People choose to believe it, and that's fine. However, belief is not dependent on reality. You can choose to believe the hideous Plateau of Leng is in southwestern Wisconsin, and you can sincerely and honestly believe that. That does not for an instant mean there's a gateway to a land of nightmares not far from Madison. Someone believing that doesn't mean the greater Wisconsin Convention and Visitor's Bureau should advertise the Plateau being there. Someone believing that doesn't mean the Plateau should be included in Wisconsin geography textbooks or history classes. Someone believing that should not be taken at face value when they show you a sign that says "For Plateau, turn left" absolutely prooves their belief. Someone sincerely believing that should not be trusted when they give you directions to it, and they should not be taken as seriously or with as much (academic or professional) respect as someone who shows the deed to that parcel of property certifying it as a dairy farm.

Belief is belief. Facts are facts. They shouldn't be treated as equals, and they shouldn't be respected equally. There are no facts that justify a belief in a literal Atlantis, and there's only so much credence to be given to anyone who says there is.

--Jaylemurph

I agree with that.

I hope you got my point as to why some people may want to cling to the belief.

Plato's story was, is and shall always be a story, a philosophical example...an allegory. My point being it is possible that he may have used the destruction of Santorini as a basis for his "cataclysm".

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if you rotate the Earth water remains the same everywhere?

Who's to say we didn't exist back then? Several jumps back in historical origins of man have already been made. I don't see them ending anytime soon. Also, why do you think it was a human civilization?

Cormac is correct, and questioning science or fundamental facts thereof does not alter reality. As all extant textual evidence shows us, Plato is the origin of the Atlantis fable. It is exists in no similar form in any source prior to Plato's Timaeus and Critias. That said, when one posits Atlantis scenarios that lie outside the details of Plato's fable, that individual has left the source material and has descended into make-believe. It is not a constructive approach.

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Cormac is correct, and questioning science or fundamental facts thereof does not alter reality. As all extant textual evidence shows us, Plato is the origin of the Atlantis fable. It is exists in no similar form in any source prior to Plato's Timaeus and Critias. That said, when one posits Atlantis scenarios that lie outside the details of Plato's fable, that individual has left the source material and has descended into make-believe. It is not a constructive approach.

kmt, I want to say something here but I'm not sure how to.

I want to be nice but this sort of answer makes me get annoyed. I find your kind of answer the LEAST constructive of all the kinds of answers I see on here.

Plato wrote the information down he received, his character repeats how truthful it is. We only discovered Doggerland recently-ish - you have a massive ocean current ripping the ocean floor along in the area and a massive earthquake zone...there is no reason to think there may not have been a larger landmass of West Africa, I have read everything on it, believe me, there is no evidence that can really prove that land didn't go beyond where it does today - check Neanderthals in Spain, the cliffs there are like 30 miles inland from then.

Now sure, we don't have this exact story written down prior to Plato that we can identify as such, but this does not mean it didn't exist. There are many ancient texts we only have one copy of, you should know of all people how hard it is for these written works prior to the Romans to have survived.

What I'd say is, it can still exist without it being exactly as the text states. Troy is real but did what happened in Homers book really occur? Does it make Troy any less real?

The word Atlantis referring to the Atlantic Ocean does exist before Plato, in Herodotus - we don't really know when it was named or why. You can speculate it's name came from the Greeks in reference to it being where Atlas held up Pillars, but one wonders (well I do) how this myth even came about in the first place - why was Atlas holding up the sky in that area? Because it had fallen down before?

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How does one find something that didn't exist? While Plato 'may' have gotten the name Atlantis from Herodotus' earlier story of the Atlantians, the latter places them in Northwest Africa, contemporary to the Garmantians who lived during the first millenium BC*, and at no point makes them out to be any sort of advanced society.

* Herodotus Book 4: Melpomene [180]

http://www.sacred-te...a/hh/hh4180.htm

cormac

Cormac, Northwest Africa yes but when Herodotus gets his description I doubt the Atlanteans he hears of would be anything like ones from millennia before - are you expecting to find Atlantis per Plato's description in Herodotus time?

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Atlantis won't be found.

It's gone, Plato tells us so, all that remained was some shoals of mud.

They might find a Poseidon statue or something but likely anything of value is long gone.

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Cormac, Northwest Africa yes but when Herodotus gets his description I doubt the Atlanteans he hears of would be anything like ones from millennia before - are you expecting to find Atlantis per Plato's description in Herodotus time?

I'm not expecting to find Atlantis at all. But Herodotus "Atlantians" was the first mention of any kind of Atlantis named/type peoples and they were not claimed to be as advanced as Plato's later Atlanteans. And there's no evidence of anyone as advanced as Plato's Atlanteans c.9600 BC anywhere in the area. Also, as opposed to what you said to kmt_sesh then yes, there is plenty of evidence that no such landmass has existed where Plato claims Atlantis was, outside the Straits of Gibraltar but sufficiently close enough to block the straits with shoals of mud upon its destruction. The area much like the Azores Plateau has been drilled many times and no core samples can be shown to substantiate any such landmass, whether during the timeframe of Plato's Atlantis or any other timeframe. An attempt to place Atlantis in any other location is totally meaningless.

cormac

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I'm not expecting to find Atlantis at all. But Herodotus "Atlantians" was the first mention of any kind of Atlantis named/type peoples and they were not claimed to be as advanced as Plato's later Atlanteans. And there's no evidence of anyone as advanced as Plato's Atlanteans c.9600 BC anywhere in the area. Also, as opposed to what you said to kmt_sesh then yes, there is plenty of evidence that no such landmass has existed where Plato claims Atlantis was, outside the Straits of Gibraltar but sufficiently close enough to block the straits with shoals of mud upon its destruction. The area much like the Azores Plateau has been drilled many times and no core samples can be shown to substantiate any such landmass, whether during the timeframe of Plato's Atlantis or any other timeframe. An attempt to place Atlantis in any other location is totally meaningless.

cormac

They were not claimed to be as advanced as Plato's Atlanteans - as I said - that seems a mute point to me, claimed by who? I wouldn't expect the people of the Atlas mountains, who may be descendants of the true Atlanteans to be mentioned as people of note by Herodotus if he himself did not know this.

OK, well Spartel Island is a sunken island approx. 9000BC and is in the Strait of Gibraltar.

Spartel Bank or Majuán Bank is a submerged former island located in the Strait of Gibraltar near Cape Spartel and the Spartel Sill. Its highest point is currently 56 metres below the surface. Spartel Bank is one of the several seamounts in the bed of Gibraltar Strait, similar but deeper seamounts are found at Camarilal Sill and further east. These represent landslide blocks which slid south from the north bank of the Strait of Gibraltar when the strait was formed, possibly through erosion by inflowing waters of the Zanclean flood.

It vanished under the surface approximately 12,000 years ago[1] due to rising ocean levels from melting ice caps after the last Glacial Maximum. It has been proposed by researchers Jacques Collina-Girard and Marc-Andrè Gutscher as a site for the legendary lost island of Atlantis.[1] However, in follow-up correspondence Gutscher indicates that the island could not have been Atlantis, referring to Plato's description of a Bronze Age society, which Spartel could not have supported at the time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartel

I acknowledge that it did not support a Bronze Age society such as described by Plato but could have been the landmass remembered in the story given, which led to the demise of the society in general, which most likely was part of West and North Africa. Plato could have meant the peninsular area of Africa (because he uses the word nesos) which at one time had Spartel Island nearby, down Morocco to the Canary Islands - all this area should be Atlantis and is where Herodotus maps has Atlanteans as living.

Other ancient writers refer to this area as an island, when they refer to the peninsular. They probably moved East into Libya during this flood eventually resulting in Poseidon always being worshipped by only them.

The word "Marrakech" is made of the Berber word combination Mour N Akoush (Mur N Akuc), meaning Land of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco

The area of present-day Morocco has been inhabited since Paleolithic times, at least since 200,000 BCE.[citation needed] During the Upper Paleolithic, the Maghreb was more fertile than it is today, resembling a savanna more than today's arid landscape.[10] 22,000 years ago, the Aterian was succeeded by the Iberomaurusian culture, which shared similarities with Iberian cultures. Skeletal similarities have been suggested between the Iberomaurusian "Mechta-Afalou" burials and European Cro-Magnon remains. The Iberomaurusian was succeeded by the Beaker culture in Morocco.

Studies have discovered a close link between Berbers and the Saami of Scandinavia which confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the last ice age

Atlas was a legendary king of Mauretania, the land of the Mauri in antiquity roughly corresponding with modern Morocco.

King Atlas was said to have been skilled in philosophy, mathematics, and astronomy. In antiquity, he was credited with inventing the first celestial globe. In some medieval texts, he is even credited with the invention of astronomy itself

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Mauretania

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Given that according to Timaeus dialogue, this is a 200 year old partial tale written down by Solon, redressed as an old world story given by an old man of around 90 to a child of about 10 (who remembers it as best he can) on a day of story-telling, to be true and correct aligned with archaeological history is absurd anyway.

The closest to hope for is enough of the description to be found in some cultures history that might be seen to be Atlanteans in the approximate given area described.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Plato told stories and Atlantis was just one of them. Never existed.

Cormac is correct, and questioning science or fundamental facts thereof does not alter reality. As all extant textual evidence shows us, Plato is the origin of the Atlantis fable. It is exists in no similar form in any source prior to Plato's Timaeus and Critias. That said, when one posits Atlantis scenarios that lie outside the details of Plato's fable, that individual has left the source material and has descended into make-believe. It is not a constructive approach.

Great post.

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What exactly makes you believe there was an Atlantis?

You are right. There really wouldn't be a way to know unless a city sign survived.

"Welcome to Atlantis"

atlantis has a symbol...have you watched natgeo finding atlantis?

the only way to prove that it is atlantis is through Plato's description.

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No it doesn't, the water displacement changes depending upon what landmass is added to or subtracted from a given location. That should be obvious.

We, as in Homo sapiens, didn't. And that's the only thing relevant to a discussion of Atlantis.

I don't 'think' it was any kind of civilization. But as written by Plato it was presented as a human civilization. Your attempt at reinterpreting what Plato claimed is irrelevant.

cormac

Yes, because they looked "human". And the obvious fact is that changing the geographical position of the world would lead to massive floods (also recorded in almost the entire globe), and if the process ended up with the antarctican area situated on the very south, any water there would freeze, the rest of the water that flooded it, out of the polar region would move to other directions in the planet.

Many things are relevant when discussing Atlantis. You choose what is relevant for you to base your belief, the rest do the same too, like me. Reinterpreting Plato's intepretations of Heredotus' interpretations of Ancient Egyptian oral historical accounts who they themselves are intepretations .... we are recycling a dead story (dead story is when something lost its original content from too much intepretation and tweaking). Therefore, I might as well see Atlantis as an ancient astronaut outpost or extraterrestrial colony and there is nothing you can do about it other than give your own interpretations as to what it was or wasn't.

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