Near-death experiences are 'electrical surge

[White Crane Feather]

Life review would seem a normal response to me. The brain goes into hyperdrive and can flash through things much faster than one might normally expect

That sounds like quit a speculation to me. If you get creative enough you can fit anything into your world view. Might the myriad of circumstances that suggest that NDEs are exactly what they appear to be be explainable by an unlikely group of physical circumstances... Sure. But I doubt it in this case. The level of coherence of the evidence is to solid. The only way that the dying brain hypothesis is correct is if a string of unlikely physical events by way of accident through evolution allows for Human beings to have experiences perfectly consistent with a reality in which there is an afterlife. It's silly to continue to deny it and invent ' explanations' out of faith in the dead physicalist premiss.

[spacecowboy342]

That sounds like quit a speculation to me. If you get creative enough you can fit anything into your world view. Might the myriad of circumstances that suggest that NDEs are exactly what they appear to be be explainable by an unlikely group of physical circumstances... Sure. But I doubt it in this case. The level of coherence of the evidence is to solid. The only way that the dying brain hypothesis is correct is if a string of unlikely physical events by way of accident through evolution allows for Human beings to have experiences perfectly consistent with a reality in which there is an afterlife. It's silly to continue to deny it and invent ' explanations' out of faith in the dead physicalist premiss.

Speculation to be sure but off the top of my head I came up with alternate ideas to supposed evidence of an afterlife. I will concede that nothing is proved either way. I find it in no way silly to explain things in physical terms as opposed to mystical mumbo jumbo

[White Crane Feather]

Speculation to be sure but off the top of my head I came up with alternate ideas to supposed evidence of an afterlife. I will concede that nothing is proved either way. I find it in no way silly to explain things in physical terms as opposed to mystical mumbo jumbo

There is nothing Mumbo jumbo about it.... And using "mystical" as a strawman is Mumbo jumbo. Stick to the facts not creativity.

Edited November 24, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[spacecowboy342]

There is nothing Mumbo jumbo about it.... And using "mystical" as a strawman is Mumbo jumbo. Stick to the facts not creativity.

I wasn't trying to use mystical as a strawman and I don't mean to insult your beliefs WCF. I'm sure you consider me a physicalist fundamentalist or whatever your term was but I consider myself an empiricist and I just don't see these NDE testimonials as evidence of an afterlife. Perhaps I am biased but I was just trying to give possible alternate explanations. Honestly I don't know the true explanation for these things but that doesn't prove their validity. It just proves my ignorance.

[psyche101]

There is nothing Mumbo jumbo about it.... And using "mystical" as a strawman is Mumbo jumbo. Stick to the facts not creativity.

If we stick to the facts the Afterlife has a definitive creation timeline and is invented by man.

I love the idea of an afterlife, I hate the realisation of false hope though even more.

[White Crane Feather]

I wasn't trying to use mystical as a strawman and I don't mean to insult your beliefs WCF. I'm sure you consider me a physicalist fundamentalist or whatever your term was but I consider myself an empiricist and I just don't see these NDE testimonials as evidence of an afterlife. Perhaps I am biased but I was just trying to give possible alternate explanations. Honestly I don't know the true explanation for these things but that doesn't prove their validity. It just proves my ignorance.

Indeed. and mine. I don't get insulted. I just argue for fun. It's just when arguing with people..... And we should about these things. Straw men and ad homonyms ( Mumbo jumbo) should be pointed out to the people trying to argue logically. Using a word like "mystical" then attaching it to an appeal to ridicule ... "Mumbo jumbo" is not an argument. I appreciate that you only accept empiricism. It's quit logical to do so. empiricism fails eventually and deduction induction are needed.

Edited November 25, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[White Crane Feather]

If we stick to the facts the Afterlife has a definitive creation timeline and is invented by man.

I love the idea of an afterlife, I hate the realisation of false hope though even more.

How so? Exstatic states are the core principal behind the oldest of spiritual and and shamanic teaching dating far further than any written record. We know this. In fact we see evidence of it in very early man. This is fact. As to being mans creation?... Well... We say the sun rises and there is a night and a day. We created the words and the concept not the reality we are trying to describe.

[spacecowboy342]

Indeed. and mine. I don't get insulted. I just argue for fun. It's just when arguing with people..... And we should about these things. Straw men and ad homonyms ( Mumbo jumbo) should be pointed out to the people trying to argue logically. Using a word like "mystical" then attaching it to an appeal to ridicule ... "Mumbo jumbo" is not an argument. I appreciate that you only accept empiricism. It's quit logical to do so. empiricism fails eventually and deduction induction are needed.

I agree with your point about induction/deduction being required with the caveat that results of such still need to be tested empirically before being accepted as fact. Good for a working hypothesis though and you're right about my term "mystical mumbo jumbo" not being an argument but just being an example of my own deductive reasoning and in no way empirical

[White Crane Feather]

I agree with your point about induction/deduction being required with the caveat that results of such still need to be tested empirically before being accepted as fact. Good for a working hypothesis though and you're right about my term "mystical mumbo jumbo" not being an argument but just being an example of my own deductive reasoning and in no way empirical

Good then let's continue. Deductive reasoning, how do you account for visages of a spirit world upon near death being exactly what one might expect if indeed we go somewhere else when we die?

Edited November 25, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[spacecowboy342]

Good then let's continue. Deductive reasoning, how do you account for visages of a spirit world upon near death being exactly what one might expect if indeed we go somewhere else when we die?

I'm not sure what you mean. What should we expect? If someone imagines what they have been taught their entire lives they would see upon dying this would not surprise me. Too see something else would seem strange.

[White Crane Feather]

I'm not sure what you mean. What should we expect? If someone imagines what they have been taught their entire lives they would see upon dying this would not surprise me. Too see something else would seem strange.

What if they had not been taught that their entire lives? so a person who has no flow of blood to the brain can access memory, cognitive relationships, and cultural conditioning all whike not receiving oxygen or blood?

There are things that an afterlife most likely has if we are going to call it life at all.

Edited November 26, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[spacecowboy342]

What if they had not been taught that their entire lives? so a person who has no flow of blood to the brain can access memory, cognitive relationships, and cultural conditioning all whike not receiving oxygen or blood?

There are things that an afterlife most likely has if we are going to call it life at all.

While in such a state random neurons will start firing rapidly triggering memories hallucinations and who knows what thoughts. It takes the brain some time to die when deprived of blood and oxygen.

[psyche101]

How so? Exstatic states are the core principal behind the oldest of spiritual and and shamanic teaching dating far further than any written record. We know this. In fact we see evidence of it in very early man. This is fact. As to being mans creation?... Well... We say the sun rises and there is a night and a day. We created the words and the concept not the reality we are trying to describe.

Exactly, it is why we figured that lightning bolts had to be thrown by a huge man in the clouds, and thunder was a huge hammer been smashed down. We could prove it by demonstration too, get a hammer, hit something really hard, listen the the sounds, now imagine that on a larger scale.

We died, not here anymore, must somewhere else. Same logic? That's where I see a major difference, man did not create day or night, we named a process that everyone can see, not something a privileged few claim exists.

Ancient man did not show a concept of afterlife, burial is not a concept of afterlife. The Egyptians are largely responsible for the afterlife stories many accept today.

[White Crane Feather]

Exactly, it is why we figured that lightning bolts had to be thrown by a huge man in the clouds, and thunder was a huge hammer been smashed down. We could prove it by demonstration too, get a hammer, hit something really hard, listen the the sounds, now imagine that on a larger scale.

We died, not here anymore, must somewhere else. Same logic? That's where I see a major difference, man did not create day or night, we named a process that everyone can see, not something a privileged few claim exists.

Ancient man did not show a concept of afterlife, burial is not a concept of afterlife. The Egyptians are largely responsible for the afterlife stories many accept today.

You are assuming the spirit world is a creation. Circular reasoning dosnt hold.

So the Egyptians taught the native Americans about the spirit world or the Australian natives about the dreaming. I don't think so.

[White Crane Feather]

While in such a state random neurons will start firing rapidly triggering memories hallucinations and who knows what thoughts. It takes the brain some time to die when deprived of blood and oxygen.

More speculation. Random neurons forming coherent NDEs that just happen to have certain themes that are universal for human beings.

[psyche101]

You are assuming the spirit world is a creation. Circular reasoning dosnt hold.

You are assuming that is not? How so?

It never had a chance to go full circle. We die and we rot. Some people say we become something else. The way I see it, talk is cheap.

So the Egyptians taught the native Americans about the spirit world or the Australian natives about the dreaming. I don't think so.

Well of course they did, where do you think the original concepts came from? They had very different beliefs, and very different customs. No cohesion, there was an array of afterlife's to choose from. What we do know is that early American people knew death was always close. Hunger, disease, enemies all were a very real and constant threat. Tales of the afterlife make it easier to deal with such a harsh lifestyle. Nobody is eager to die. Now we have just a couple where you either get reincarnated, or go of to join your relatives to play harps and dance around some extremely tall bearded dude. Egypt made these refinements, and that is where the modern concepts come from. NDE's are rare today, in a world where the human population was around 4 million compared to 6 billion today, and few would have come back, how do you suppose the word travelled so quickly across the globe? A story seems it would travel much faster to me.

Is there anything at all other than a few wild claims to prove any other existence after death even can exist?

[psyche101]

More speculation. Random neurons forming coherent NDEs that just happen to have certain themes that are universal for human beings.

But an afterlife isn't?

We have proof of neurons, do we have any of an afterlife?

[White Crane Feather]

You are assuming that is not? How so?

It never had a chance to go full circle. We die and we rot. Some people say we become something else. The way I see it, talk is cheap.

Well of course they did, where do you think the original concepts came from? They had very different beliefs, and very different customs. No cohesion, there was an array of afterlife's to choose from. What we do know is that early American people knew death was always close. Hunger, disease, enemies all were a very real and constant threat. Tales of the afterlife make it easier to deal with such a harsh lifestyle. Nobody is eager to die. Now we have just a couple where you either get reincarnated, or go of to join your relatives to play harps and dance around some extremely tall bearded dude. Egypt made these refinements, and that is where the modern concepts come from. NDE's are rare today, in a world where the human population was around 4 million compared to 6 billion today, and few would have come back, how do you suppose the word travelled so quickly across the globe? A story seems it would travel much faster to me.

Is there anything at all other than a few wild claims to prove any other existence after death even can exist?

ABout 12% of of people who have been pulled back from bear death,

You are incorrect. Ideas of the afterlife come from ecstatic experiences of people who are explaining how they left their body's. any story telling after that is embellishment.

[White Crane Feather]

But an afterlife isn't?

We have proof of neurons, do we have any of an afterlife?

How can it be speculation for a person that's been there? It would seem more speculative that millions of people simply invent a similar themed set of events from "RANDOM neuron firing" caused by a plethora of different circumstances. We have tons of evidence that consciousness may survive physical death, people bent on their beliefs however don't take anything as evidence. It's easier to get creative to uphold ones world view.

[spacecowboy342]

More speculation. Random neurons forming coherent NDEs that just happen to have certain themes that are universal for human beings.

Many themes/myths seem universal to human beings. This doesn't prove they have objective reality. Just that humans share many fears and hopes. Yeah I know more speculation

[White Crane Feather]

Many themes/myths seem universal to human beings. This doesn't prove they have objective reality. Just that humans share many fears and hopes. Yeah I know more speculation

I did not say it proved anything. I have been saying it Is striking evidence for the metaphysical interpretation. The problem of course with the psychological explanation of the universality of NDE themes is that quite often the brain is in no shape for coherent motifs or drawing upon psychological wants, comforts, and cultural conditioning.

[spacecowboy342]

I did not say it proved anything. I have been saying it Is striking evidence for the metaphysical interpretation. The problem of course with the psychological explanation of the universality of NDE themes is that quite often the brain is in no shape for coherent motifs or drawing upon psychological wants, comforts, and cultural conditioning.

Yeah you do make a good point, but once the subconscious takes over who's to say that such motifs aren't automatic. The brain has an amazing ability to try to make order from chaos as in the case of optical illusions when the brain attempts to make sense of something and draws erroneous conclusions. I don't know the mechanisms involved here but while I too can see how the metaphysical interpretation seems to make sense, my point is the physical cannot be ruled out. I think a lot more research into the operations of the brain may yield more answers. Or it could be a mystery that is never completely solved.

[psyche101]

ABout 12% of of people who have been pulled back from bear death,

Have reported what? Going to another existence, or an unusual experience that relates directly to their lives?

You know what I would find convincing? Someone coming back with information they did not already have when they died, like a plumber offering a cure for Cancer immediately after the experience.

You are incorrect. Ideas of the afterlife come from ecstatic experiences of people who are explaining how they left their body's. any story telling after that is embellishment.

I do not believe your belief allows for a global propagation that is consised into two basic concepts, each of which cover a significant portion of the globe. It strikes me that historically, too many people know about the afterlife for it to have spread from 12% of the population who have survived a close encounter with death.

So as far as I can see, your "facts" contradict themselves.

None of which answers why a spirit world exists. I just do not believe it does, why would it? Do houseflies have an afterlife? If not, why? And why do Ghosts wear clothes? Clothes have spirits? Where do we draw the spirit line in the sand?

Edited November 27, 2013 by psyche101

[psyche101]

How can it be speculation for a person that's been there?

Because it is one persons interpretation, and that person is near death, and not in optimum operating condition. Like with Goblins and Aliens, one might see a shape in a photograph described by a religious person as a goblin or daemon, yet a more modern minded person might conclude the same is an alien. We seem to think we can resolve things we cannot. Sometimes, we need more information to make a valuable guess. How many people say their life flashes before their eyes? That really sounds like random neuron firing to me.

It would seem more speculative that millions of people simply invent a similar themed set of events from "RANDOM neuron firing" caused by a plethora of different circumstances.

How so? When we have evidence of such? Remember the link in the OP? It said:

We identified a transient surge of synchronous gamma oscillations that occurred within the first 30 s after cardiac arrest and preceded isoelectric electroencephalogram. Gamma oscillations during cardiac arrest were global and highly coherent; moreover, this frequency band exhibited a striking increase in anterior–posterior-directed connectivity and tight phase-coupling to both theta and alpha waves. High-frequency neurophysiological activity in the near-death state exceeded levels found during the conscious waking state. These data demonstrate that the mammalian brain can, albeit paradoxically, generate neural correlates of heightened conscious processing at near-death.

Might be just me, but it sounds much more convincing than someone travelling to a white light to see everyone else they know that already died.

We have tons of evidence that consciousness may survive physical death,

Please feel free to demonstrate.

people bent on their beliefs however don't take anything as evidence.

Is that what you think is it? I believe it is impossible? Not always, I believed it was very possible, and years of looking for something specific took me to many shady avenues that only left me jaded. I wanted there to be an afterlife more than anyone when my Father passed away in 2006. And I still remember a mortal fear of dying as a small child. I took it hard that his was going to happen to me. How dare it! My father was a devout Catholic, My Mother wandered from religion to religion, I was brought up on faith it exists. Looking for it tells me that it's a load of crap designed to help us with this reality that we are all going to die. Nobody gets out of that one.

ETA, I remember reading an interesting book, but I forget the name, perhaps you know it? A women dies in it, and goes to her personal hell, same house, same kids same husband, but the lawns are always overgrown, the paths heavily cracked, the house filthy, husband and kids never home, but just endless grudging work, and the weather was always rainy and miserable - every day. Her husband does an NDE thing and tries to help her out of this bad place, and my memory gets hazier from there....... been a while. I do not suppose you know the publication I speak of?

What about the heavy illusions that poor health and age can bring? My Father who was suffering Alzheimers and some dementia when he passed had extremely vivid hallucinations all the time, at the end it was ongoing, some in 3D, like people in the room with him, sometimes like a movie playing out inside or on a wall. He would wake to Nazi Soldiers with SS bands and the faces of Pigs, he saw religious figures, he saw a small girl that he said apparently was fond of me and would stay close to me. I remember being a bit freaked out one day when he said she was sitting on the arm of my chair with me. He saw her with me all the time, but did not know who she was.

He was alive, not on the other side, and he was nearing the end of his life, and his brain was defective at the end.

What about him having what some describe, or at least similar with regards to another existence, as an NDE? How did he have these experiences? And why do they remind me of NDE?

It's easier to get creative to uphold ones world view.

I am sure it is, it is hard to push aside your beliefs and come to a realisation that you never wanted. Much easier to come up with some superstitious mumbo jumbo to make life more bearable, people do it with things like drugs all the time. Some parts of life are hard to get through, that we tend to have in common largely.

Edited November 27, 2013 by psyche101

[White Crane Feather]

Yeah you do make a good point, but once the subconscious takes over who's to say that such motifs aren't automatic. The brain has an amazing ability to try to make order from chaos as in the case of optical illusions when the brain attempts to make sense of something and draws erroneous conclusions. I don't know the mechanisms involved here but while I too can see how the metaphysical interpretation seems to make sense, my point is the physical cannot be ruled out. I think a lot more research into the operations of the brain may yield more answers. Or it could be a mystery that is never completely solved.

Well yes. The physical cannot be ruled out just yet, and I don't think it can be. The physical and "spiritual" are going to be ultimately be in a partnership to produce physical experiences. Radio waves and the radio are both needed to produce music that you can listen to. Tweak the radio even a bit and the signal goes haywire.