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EllJay

What if it was like this?!

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What if the afterlife was like this, to some extent; how would you (for whom may it concern) as an die hard atheist -and perhaps with fevered hatred for religion- react?

Would you feel "cheated" of the oblivious `great big sleep` you thought you where headed for and would you still feel contempt for the creator/manager and ask for an eternal existence in an isolation room to pout? :)

god_cartoon.jpg

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We all go through the same gate at the end of this life,if you wake up after death its a bonus,if you dont you wont know about it,so why worry.No one has ever reported back so its either fantastic or Blank.

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Nobody seems to know what the "afterlife" consists of ,.What do we do for eternity ?,the answers I have heard don't seem to me to be worth the effort required to achieve it ,I think the truth is no one as any idea if there even is an afterlife or a heaven ,it is probably just a "comfort" story that some cling to because they can't bear the thought of the eternal darkness of the grave.It is not something I relish myself but that is . death and nothing we do will alter that

fullywired

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death and nothing we do will alter that

That is the median outcome on offer.

Spud is a little bit optimistic

its either fantastic or Blank

There is a rumor of a third possibility. If so, those folks won't be reporting back, either.

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Posted (edited)

That is the median outcome on offer.

Spud is a little bit optimistic

There is a rumor of a third possibility. If so, those folks won't be reporting back, either.

Latest whispering I heard was the third possibility was the cosmic version of a bogeyman tale.

Edited by libstaK
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I think if that is the afterlife I'll pass, I am well passed the need for mommy. Ever notice how having a nice Mom is great when your little. But when you live on your own for a while, then move back in or Mom moves in, not so nice. I loved my Mom, I miss my Mom, but....

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We all go through the same gate at the end of this life,if you wake up after death its a bonus,if you dont you wont know about it,so why worry.No one has ever reported back so its either fantastic or Blank.

As some say about life; "no one comes out of it alive". But I don't think a possible (if anything) afterlife is something we could even imagine. NDE'rs claim that what they've seen and felt it was so unreal from the the senses we posses as a human. The "new" consciousness that could perceive the concept of non-linear time, the concept of eternity, the ability to move their being/consciousness to where ever they wanted just by thinking of it, in an instance fully perceive the knowledge about "everything" (the sense of knowing the purpose all things in existence and how it all is connected and constructed), also pretty fast lose the interest of their worldly life and those who still was alive because they "know" that regardless what happens to them everything will turn out alright and they be together in a "second". When they come back in their bodies after their NDE they sense that they for a while possessed all those new senses but they cant recollect any knowledge. A skeptical mind would say that that is pretty convenient thing to say if you want to spin a story. But if one believes in the survival of consciousness the physical brain might be the inhibitor to a fuller array of senses. Who knows.

Or it is, as you say, - nothing/blank- and if so nothing really matters, since you wont feel or be aware of nothing at all, since you ceased to exist totally.

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Some have reported back and some have been there. In fact there is sort of a standard model with what you will experience upon death.

1) a tunnel

2) light

4) a life review where you review everything in your life

5) a greeting of family members or loving spirits

6) meeting with a higher being and a sense of incredible piece.

These standard things suggest a couple of things.

1) The things you do in life are important for some reason otherwise why the emphasis on a review.

2) something or Someone seems to go out of their/it's way to make the transition comfortable.

3) there seems to be a boss or something directing it all.

of course there are occasionally hellish experiences, but usually these people are creating some sort of turmoil in their lives and the vision helps to straighten them out.

One thing is for certain. We know that a certain percentage of people that get pulled back from the brink of death experience these things ... Something like %12. This probably means that during the death process many more that do die experience it as well but simply can't report it.

So if you are a skeptic of the afterlife, and you turn out to be right, it's very possible that your last thought before winking out of existence will be "holy ****, they were right". Personally I find that a bit amusing.

As to the old "it's all wishful thinking". This is simply asinine to give any kind credibility to. Quit obviously and documented many people have had powerful NDEs and OBE experiences. Even if the dying brain hypothesis is correct, it's just ignorant to suggest that these people or the people that trust them are wishful thinking. It's perfectly reasonable to believe in an afterlife after you have witnessed such things or trust Someone who has.

As to the structure and continued existence in the after life. It's anybody's guess. I knew form of life perhaps, reincarnation after you are tired of being a spirit seems like the way to go, but who knows?

I have visited my father off and on for many years. As time goes by he really has seemed to drift in the way he behaves. At first he was very much like he was in life. He always wanted to play dominos like we did as I was growing up. But his death was fresh then and the visits were upsetting me and I was only 19. I told him he was dead and the visits were disturbing me so I wanted him to go away. He did. He lifted his an nodded and I did not see him again, until I started to get control over my OBEs . Then he was having fun and happy. He slowly started to change though. He became more mature as a spirit. He got to the point where he acted like the rest of them. Hardly any words. Still warm but everything highly contextual and symbolic. One vision in particular I knew he was changed. He had moved on to another stage.

Anyway, if what I experience is real in any way, I think the afterlife is about continuing to evolve. I don't think the learning stops. Oh well we will see one way or the other.

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If there is an after life why would the skeptic wink out. Why wouldn't he just go on living? If it is actually there, wouldn't everyone be there?

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If there is an after life why would the skeptic wink out. Why wouldn't he just go on living? If it is actually there, wouldn't everyone be there?

Some have reported back and some have been there. In fact there is sort of a standard model with what you will experience upon death.

1) a tunnel

2) light

4) a life review where you review everything in your life

5) a greeting of family members or loving spirits

6) meeting with a higher being and a sense of incredible piece.

These standard things suggest a couple of things.

1) The things you do in life are important for some reason otherwise why the emphasis on a review.

2) something or Someone seems to go out of their/it's way to make the transition comfortable.

3) there seems to be a boss or something directing it all.

of course there are occasionally hellish experiences, but usually these people are creating some sort of turmoil in their lives and the vision helps to straighten them out.

One thing is for certain. We know that a certain percentage of people that get pulled back from the brink of death experience these things ... Something like %12. This probably means that during the death process many more that do die experience it as well but simply can't report it.

So if you are a skeptic of the afterlife, and you turn out to be right, it's very possible that your last thought before winking out of existence will be "holy ****, they were right". Personally I find that a bit amusing.

As to the old "it's all wishful thinking". This is simply asinine to give any kind credibility to. Quit obviously and documented many people have had powerful NDEs and OBE experiences. Even if the dying brain hypothesis is correct, it's just ignorant to suggest that these people or the people that trust them are wishful thinking. It's perfectly reasonable to believe in an afterlife after you have witnessed such things or trust Someone who has.

As to the structure and continued existence in the after life. It's anybody's guess. I knew form of life perhaps, reincarnation after you are tired of being a spirit seems like the way to go, but who knows?

I have visited my father off and on for many years. As time goes by he really has seemed to drift in the way he behaves. At first he was very much like he was in life. He always wanted to play dominos like we did as I was growing up. But his death was fresh then and the visits were upsetting me and I was only 19. I told him he was dead and the visits were disturbing me so I wanted him to go away. He did. He lifted his an nodded and I did not see him again, until I started to get control over my OBEs . Then he was having fun and happy. He slowly started to change though. He became more mature as a spirit. He got to the point where he acted like the rest of them. Hardly any words. Still warm but everything highly contextual and symbolic. One vision in particular I knew he was changed. He had moved on to another stage.

Anyway, if what I experience is real in any way, I think the afterlife is about continuing to evolve. I don't think the learning stops. Oh well we will see one way or the other.

Fascinating experience. Some psychics who claim they have insight in the structure and "routine" of the afterlife say that many spirits who pass over have a very hard time accepting their new existence and react with anxiety, terror, disbelief, denial and disorientation. So they are in a sort of "therapy", with help to accept and grow stronger in their new situation, when they cross over. Imagine a hardcore materialist confronted with the realities of an afterlife, which they hated the concept of when alive, that would shake anyone up quite a bit.

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If there is an after life why would the skeptic wink out. Why wouldn't he just go on living? If it is actually there, wouldn't everyone be there?

Indeed, if you look closely, I said ---if the skeptic turned out to be right--.

I of course do not think the skeptic will wink out of existence, I expect them to be quite surprised.

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This reminds me of one night as I sat reading and sensed someone there. I looked up and my (deceased) Grandfather stood there, back against the wall, looking distressed and confused. In life, he had never been like that, always strong (narrow?) minded, a fundamentalist in religion and very rules oriented man. After a long moment of surprise, I asked him if he was alright.

After another long moment, he finally told me, "It is not what I expected."

LOL, I hadn't expected him to say that either, or for him to ever come by my house to say anything. But, maybe it is a good thing that there may not be literal pearl gates and gold streets.

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I did not have a worry before my birth. I excpect not to have any aftet my death.

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NDE have been pretty well examined and understood through science.

I'm not sure why you'd think a skeptic/atheist would feel cheated, I would love the opportunity to sit and shoot the breeze with Carl Sagan and Fred Rogers, or meet my grandfather again.

However, the evidence isn't there to pin my hopes on some sort of poorly described afterlife. Instead its best to live life the best you can, take advantage of as many opportunities as you can, and give as many others as you can all the opportunitues you can provide.

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Well, I don't think I would enjoy an afterlife that was similar to life. Do I really want to do all this again for an eternity? I don't think I do, once is enough for me.

As far as NDE's are concerned, these people were not dead. Only the really dead know what happens after death, if anything, and they never come back to tell the tale. I think this fact should be noted, as it's rather significant.

If there is an afterlife, in my view it would be something completely different than physical life as we know it. I mean, we'd be physically dead, so how could w still be walking around in our bodies, or playing tennis with our relatives? This is wishful thinking. Especially wishful, because who likes their relatives enough to want to hang out with them, even in heaven?

One last thought: why do we think an afterlife would be a nice place? This is another example of wishful thinking. Why would life after death be any better than life before death? If Something created life, I would think It would make the same stupid mistakes in creating an afterlife.

From my observations of life in the here and now, I have little trust in the quality of life in the there and then.

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NDE have been pretty well examined and understood through science.

oh dear... No it hasn't. Just a lot of conjecture based on previouse bias and parroting ..,its not science at all.

The rest of what you said seems pretty logical ;)

Edited by White Crane Feather

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Well, I don't think I would enjoy an afterlife that was similar to life. Do I really want to do all this again for an eternity? I don't think I do, once is enough for me.

As far as NDE's are concerned, these people were not dead. Only the really dead know what happens after death, if anything, and they never come back to tell the tale. I think this fact should be noted, as it's rather significant.

If there is an afterlife, in my view it would be something completely different than physical life as we know it. I mean, we'd be physically dead, so how could w still be walking around in our bodies, or playing tennis with our relatives? This is wishful thinking. Especially wishful, because who likes their relatives enough to want to hang out with them, even in heaven?

One last thought: why do we think an afterlife would be a nice place? This is another example of wishful thinking. Why would life after death be any better than life before death? If Something created life, I would think It would make the same stupid mistakes in creating an afterlife.

From my observations of life in the here and now, I have little trust in the quality of life in the there and then.

I do, which is why, while i do not believe in life after death, i spend a lot of time with my family and my wife's family. That includes extended family out to great grand nieces and nephews. We have had different family members (from babies through teenagers to 90 year olds) live with us for periods up to 6 years, but more often only a year or so.

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Well, I don't think I would enjoy an afterlife that was similar to life. Do I really want to do all this again for an eternity? I don't think I do, once is enough for me.

As far as NDE's are concerned, these people were not dead. Only the really dead know what happens after death...

You know star mountain this old run kills me every time especially when expressed by smart people like yourself. Who are you to define what is dead and what and what is not.?its a ridiculous marginal concept. You can choose death as a place that you never return... Fine I understand that... But that is not the way doctors define it. Doctors call it and are way more intimate with it that you or I and still sometimes their wrong.They make a decision. You are operating from a preformed axiom that death is some sort of line when in truth technology continues to push that line you are also under some kind of assumption that the conscious reaction to death ( if there is such a thing ;) is some how preformed upon that line. Think about it honestly for a second. Everything operates on the margins. If NDEs are some sort of process do you really expect for the process The most revealing part of the argument is that it was always called a An NDE. Yes that means a NEAR death experience. It was never represented ad an ADE.

Ill make a prediction/hypothesis right now. If NDEs are a spiritual phenomenon, then as life saveing technology increases so will the incidents of NDEs. It's actually measurable and already happening ;)

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What ever the outcome,we don't have any choice.Dying quickly is far better than lingering in a geriatric ward for months.

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If my "next" life is anything like this one, I don't want to come back. And I, too, don't want to linger. I watched my grandmother decline, and it was awful. Something quick and painless would be nice.

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What if the afterlife was like this, to some extent; how would you (for whom may it concern) as an die hard atheist -and perhaps with fevered hatred for religion- react?

Would you feel "cheated" of the oblivious `great big sleep` you thought you where headed for and would you still feel contempt for the creator/manager and ask for an eternal existence in an isolation room to pout? :)

god_cartoon.jpg

Dude. I loved it!

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The most revealing part of the argument is that it was always called a An NDE. Yes that means a NEAR death experience. It was never represented ad an ADE.

Thanks for your reply to my post. I just consider a Near Death Experience to be just that, as you say. I think there is a line between near death and death, as the following quote indicates. Clinical death only means there is no blood circulation and no breathing. There have been no comprehensive medical studies of brain activity during these NDE episodes.

While I can understand the desire to believe NDE's to be spiritual experiences, I consider it a non-varifiable assumption that NDE's are these kinds of experience without definitive scientific evidence as corroboration. Comprehensive scientific evidence that the brain is completely inactive during NDE's does not exist.

Skeptics argue that what some scientists regard as NDEs is based on the false deduction that the brain of a patient is inactive, while no proper brain activity scans have been performed. They view NDEs as poorly studied biological and chemical phenomena occurring in the brain. They argue that NDE could possibly be explained by purely physiological and neurobiological mechanisms that could be better understood through advances in neuroimaging and neuroscience in general.

There are three arguments in support of such criticism. First, the NDE could just as easily have occurred before or after any state resembling brain death. There is no way to verify the timing of memory formation relative to brain scans when the patient is not conscious.[103] Second, it is very difficult to verify that there was in fact no measurable brain activity. There are many types of brain activity and they require different types of tests to verify them. Most of these types of tests are not typically performed when a patient is undergoing attempts at emergency resuscitation. It is entirely possible, for example, that a patient showing no activity on an EEG scan could still have brain activity that would appear on an FMRI, PET, or catSCAN. In the words of Dr. Mark Cohen, a neuroimaging researcher at UCLA: "The EEG can appear flat even in the presence of high activity, when that activity is not synchronous. For example, the EEG flattens in regions involved in direct task processing. This phenomenon is known as event-related desynchronization."[104][unreliable source?] Third, the experiences reported by NDE subjects have also been reported by other patients whose experiences had known triggers (mostly chemicals of a psychedelic nature.) The chemical processes that happen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

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Thanks for your reply to my post. I just consider a Near Death Experience to be just that, as you say. I think there is a line between near death and death, as the following quote indicates. Clinical death only means there is no blood circulation and no breathing. There have been no comprehensive medical studies of brain activity during these NDE episodes.

When your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain. And so what happens is that within about 10 sec, brain activity ceases. In some cases people have been dead for hours and then resuscitated so without blood and oxygen your brain isn't working. In many cases they were cooldowned which often are a keystone for resuscitation after such a long time though.

Bur anyway; when your heart stops beating, there is no blood getting to your brain, brain cease to function pretty quick.

While I can understand the desire to believe NDE's to be spiritual experiences, I consider it a non-varifiable assumption that NDE's are these kinds of experience without definitive scientific evidence as corroboration. Comprehensive scientific evidence that the brain is completely inactive during NDE's does not exist.

http://en.wikipedia....eath_experience

There might be some deep desire for many people to believe in it, but for many it is just a very tantalizing phenomenon. Every person is different with different experiences in life, different fears and different goals for joy and happiness. In a brain going totally haywire and creating hallucinations when you are close to dying it shouldn't create almost identical experiences, and also so stable, consistent, and joyful + they feel it all as being more real than they perceive their normal corporal life. This shouldn't happen in a brain that is out of blood and oxygen. Pam Reynolds brain was totally shutdown during her brain surgery, and she had an NDE.

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Thanks for your reply to my post. I just consider a Near Death Experience to be just that, as you say. I think there is a line between near death and death, as the following quote indicates. Clinical death only means there is no blood circulation and no breathing. There have been no comprehensive medical studies of brain activity during these NDE episodes.

While I can understand the desire to believe NDE's to be spiritual experiences, I consider it a non-varifiable assumption that NDE's are these kinds of experience without definitive scientific evidence as corroboration. Comprehensive scientific evidence that the brain is completely inactive during NDE's does not exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-death_experience

All of that is an example of creative sciencism. You can tell by the constant use of passive voice statements. ( Would, could, can, should.... Etc).

I can describe the sun as a large light bulb in the sky being complete unaware of outer space. I can talk about the electric circuits running behind the dome of the sky, and even get in to the physics of a lightbulb. I can keep it perfectly consistent with how the science of light bulbs work but in the end it's just me using science to explain something that is just not what I am explaining because I am assuming my own conclusion.

I can understand the hesitancy to be skeptical about the spiritual interpretation of NDEs. I do. But being creative and accepting "explanations" that fit your particular world view is simply a bad case of confirmation bias. Luckily in science a hypothesis must have evidence to be considered satisfied. The brain as producer of consciousness has no evidence to support it that does not also support it's null hypothesis ( brain is a receiver of consciousness). Evidence for both is evidence for neither.

As for NDEs. I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that a spiritual experience ( if there is a spirit world), will not have anything to do with the brain. Quit obviously a memory must exist for it to be reported in the first place. There must obviously be an informational interface between non physical memory and physical memory. This must involve brain function. This would happen at the point where the person was revived. Obviously there must be the creation of a memory weather there is a spirit world or not. To use this fact to assume that the experience itself was purely biological is simply assuming the physicalist conclusion and frankly silly. The memory is obviously stored In the brain. This says nothing about what created the memory. Eating a burger is a real experience then the memory of it is stored. They are two different things.

A famous NDE occurred during an experimental surgery designed to remove a brain tumor that otherwise could not be removed. The patients body temp was lowered to a very low state and her blood drained from her body. In this state there can be no brain function, but the patient can still be revived latter because of the low temp. She gave an accurate description of the saw used to cut her skull open and conversations in the room. Confirmed by the doctor doing the surgery. skeptical analysis can come up with a lot of "cans" "could haves" and "Maybes" about anything, but in the end it is what it is unless prooven otherwise. Assuming the conclusion is not a valid option if we are going to be truly scientific.

The actual evidence and aggregate circumstances weighs heavily in favor of a spiritual interpretation. But, this can never be considered scientific. The only way we can interface a potential spirit world and the physical side of the universe is through experiences. Science is inherently physical and built on physical philosophy therefore it will have difficulties testing for a non physical reality. It's like a 2 dimensional being trying to receive information from a 3 dimensional world. The 2d being can only receive information along the plane of his dimensions. Only through inference and the inconsistencies wittnessed in his 2d world can he start to speculate and find ways to get indirect evidence of a 3d reality.

This is happening now in physics.

The bottom line is that if a spirit world exist it must be experienced through a conscious person and science has thrown out the importance of experiences of individual.

If you don't have to be dead to experience a potential spirit world, physicalists will always say its just in the mind. My response to that is..... So. So is everything else.

As to the argument for the line of death. If you define death precisely by your inability to come back then you must concede that it is a moveing line. A moving line is not really a line at all in this context.

Edited by White Crane Feather
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oh dear... No it hasn't. Just a lot of conjecture based on previouse bias and parroting ..,its not science at all.

The rest of what you said seems pretty logical ;)

Studies into the brain during the process of death and research into what prompts NDE have been done for awhile and have brought explanation that have been replicated in trials.

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