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Gomar

why has "God" done nothing in 2k years?

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Here is a question I pose: Why hasnt "God" performed any miracles in the last 2000 years... since supposedly resurrecting Jesus?

Why is everything in the Bible ancient, thousands of years ago, and nothing new has gone on.

Now, yes, the Bible itself (Torah) was written thousands of years ago, and no amendments have been made; it's not the U.S. constitution after all. However, if "God" wants to prove to the disbelievers, the atheists, the scientists who laugh at the 6 day creation, miracles, Adam&Eve, etc. and believe in evolution, then why not just perform some awesome miracle unexplained by science.

How about turning the Sun green, or making all nuclear weapons disappear(poof all gone!), or curing all who have cancer, AIDS, Down Syndrome;

Make my mother-in-law disappear; reveal where Jimmy Hoffa and Emilia Earnhardt are, who shot JR, etc.

Or, "God" could just send a messiah to fix the world, end all misery, warfare, and all humans will live in peace.

"God" where are you?

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have you ever heard of Mormonism or Scientology?

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Posted (edited)

Why would God make life easy for us? That would take away the impetus to have faith and follow His teachings. He never promised life on earth would be great, just the reward in Heaven.

And people DO report small miracles all the time, and I'm not talking about the face of Mary in a piece of toast. More like surviving impossible situations, etc.

btw, I do believe in God but I actually believe that He checked out a long time ago. I'm kind of being devil's advocate here. I know what I'm supposed to say but don't know if I actually believe it.

Edited by MacsMom
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Well there was the whole flying Mohammed around on the winged horse thing, but that was a while back too

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I read Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire last year and he argued something similar, not only that Christ had done his thing, but that early Christians were capable of performing miracles. It was implied that the power to do so had been withdrawn from Humanity. I'd put the year of this withdrawal around 380 AD when Theodosius, building upon Constatine's legalization of Christianity, when one step further and banned Pagan worship and made Nicene Christianity the state religion of Rome, leading to the first persecutions of Christians by other Christians. From there the seed was planted for the imperial power of the Catholic church, the East-West Schism, the Protestant reformation and the Religious Wars. Now if there ever was a reason for God to abandon this planet and start over, I think you can find it there.

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Posted (edited)

I'm agnostic but I feel inclined to respond to this.

Have you ever heard of tumor remissions? It is were tumors in cancer patients randomly disappear for no apparent reason. Or of people surviving horrible accidents without a scratch. Or having broken limbs heal in unbelievable amounts of time.

and the stuff like nukes and war is caused from humans free will. So it would make no sense to control peoples actions and give them free will

I would calls those miracles :innocent:

Edited by spartan max2
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I read Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire last year and he argued something similar, not only that Christ had done his thing, but that early Christians were capable of performing miracles. It was implied that the power to do so had been withdrawn from Humanity. I'd put the year of this withdrawal around 380 AD when Theodosius, building upon Constatine's legalization of Christianity, when one step further and banned Pagan worship and made Nicene Christianity the state religion of Rome, leading to the first persecutions of Christians by other Christians. From there the seed was planted for the imperial power of the Catholic church, the East-West Schism, the Protestant reformation and the Religious Wars. Now if there ever was a reason for God to abandon this planet and start over, I think you can find it there.

Or possibly God is imaginary and the miracles are myths. I'm just saying. it's possible
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First, your question assumes that miracles have not happened I the past 2000 years. Many people claim to have experienced a miracle. But for the sake of argument I'll discount those since they weren't universal miracles that everyone could recognise.

That said, you refer to Jesus and the Bible so the assumption here is that you are referencing the Judeo-Christian God. So when answering you must look at it within the Judeo-Christian frame. And so I now ask you a question - show me a single place in the Bible where God performs a miracle for the sole purpose of proving that he exists. If you can't find one (and I'm reasonably sure you can't) then you are asking a question about why God would suddenly act contrary to the characteristics displayed over thousands of years just to appease some modern-day doubters. Think about it!

And on a minor aside, many Christians believe in evolution and understand the creation story to be a theological discourse on the nature of God and its relationship with humanity, as opposed to a scientific or historical account of what actually happened. Just thought you should know :)

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Here is a question I pose: Why hasnt "God" performed any miracles in the last 2000 years... since supposedly resurrecting Jesus?

Depending on which god you mean and who you ask, god (gods) has (have) done plenty of things.

To discuss your claim, one has to select one god and one interpretation of the god.

The problem with these "why" questions is that they always throw out an assumption.

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Or possibly God is imaginary and the miracles are myths. I'm just saying. it's possible

That's my typical view, but I'm playing along for the sake of speculation. If miracles were performed by Christ and his early followers and they aren't now, then it suggests to me that God has abandoned his creation, withdrawn all evidence for his existence, and believers and atheists alike are equally damned.

Belief in miracles is the conceited view that the laws of nature break and bend for our own personal benefit.

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If an entity that was truly all powerful made itself known by displaying such power -AND demanded of you that you do things which seemed wrong to you then how would you react? Fear? Anger? Rebellion? All the above? Would life have any real meaning or would it seem you were just a thing that had no choice and no place of unique purpose in creation? If God needs to prove Himself to you then is He really God? This brief time we spend in these shells are for learning lessons I think. And He acts as He does to facilitate that learning. Though the pain and horrors we suffer seem all important to us now, He can see all eternity and knows just how brief this period of our existence will be. What we experience now is necessary to prepare us for what we must do later. This is my take on life.

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If an entity that was truly all powerful made itself known by displaying such power -AND demanded of you that you do things which seemed wrong to you then how would you react? Fear? Anger? Rebellion? All the above?

Don't know if this is directed at me, but I'll field it. :) If I saw undeniable proof of God I would have no choice but to believe. Although the same could be asked of believers and Zeus. If he rode a lightning bolt down from the sky and said "I'm back from vacation, what's up?" How would you react? I think we all would struggle with something that shakes up our world view in such a drastic manner, but ultimately proof would convince me.

Would life have any real meaning or would it seem you were just a thing that had no choice and no place of unique purpose in creation?

Meaning isn't something that exists or is handed to us, it is something that has to be found. If I was convinced that my Atheism is wrong I would go through periods of deep thought and emerge with new meaning. Likewise I believe a theist convinced otherwise would adjust to a life without God. We're very rugged creatures, us humans.

If God needs to prove Himself to you then is He really God?

True, but you can't say God is exceedingly subtle and mysterious then claim that those whose minds are built differently are going to be penalized because of it. Some scientists see the hand of God wherever they go, and some see the unconscious force of nature, but both share reverence. They merely split the hair whether it's a conscious force or not.

This brief time we spend in these shells are for learning lessons I think. And He acts as He does to facilitate that learning. Though the pain and horrors we suffer seem all important to us now, He can see all eternity and knows just how brief this period of our existence will be. What we experience now is necessary to prepare us for what we must do later. This is my take on life.

I'd agree that a lot of life has to do with learning lessons, but I think we differ on the reason why. I don't see a skill that can be learnt it life that you couldn't easily learn in the afterlife. They say it takes 7 years to master something, so any skill you want to learn you can because you'll have infinite 7 year periods. I see our experience as something we have to pass on to the generations that come before us, so that when we die we can say that our lives had a positive impact on those around us. Humanity has been improving by tiny degrees for thousands of years, but there still is a long way to go. So long as the forces of positivity are stronger than those of negativity then it will continue.

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what defines a miracle??

i remember there being a beautiful quote from a work of fiction(can't remember the name atm)

"science has stolen all the miracles from the world."

or simply because we can now do these things we don't see them as miracles.

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If miracles were performed by Christ and his early followers and they aren't now, then it suggests to me that God has abandoned his creation, withdrawn all evidence for his existence, and believers and atheists alike are equally damned.

Jesus brought a new thing, the Law of Liberty, into a people who had been subjected to punishments if they did not strickly obey the Law. Miracles are the only thing that proved God's endorsement when a new teaching is being brought forth. Miracles made people follow Jesus.

God did the same things every time a new type of worship was being introduced to the Israelites. Example: the Israelites said Moses was not God's chosen to lead. Moses built a private tabernacle and the glory of God came down and stayed at the entrance of the tabernacle. If God had entered, Moses would have died.

Then the Tabernacle in the wilderness was built. When it was finished, God came down again and showed His endorsement.

Solomon's Temple changed drastically the floor placement of the alter and the laver, etc. At the opening ceremony, the glory of God entered the Temple and the priests had to leave or it would have killed them. God's presence showed He accepted it.

At Pentecost, God came down and anointed 120 in the apostleship with power to teach and perform miracles. Proving once again God's endorsement. The apostle era is over. Now the miracles are to sustain His children in ways that may not make national news but they know they have had a miracle from God.

If anyone comes forth teaching things new, he/she will have power to perform miracles to prove God's endorsement. In the last days your sons and daughters will prophesy. They surely are not going to teach something that has been taught so many times it has worn out the believer's ears. It will be something new. And you should look for miracles to prove God's endorsement as long as it does not contradict the Bible we already have

God bless us all is my prayer.

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In some ways God is a lot like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster -- has numbers of devoted believers who jump on any straw to believe.

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In some ways God is a lot like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster -- has numbers of devoted believers who jump on any straw to believe.

All hail the Divine Sasquatch!

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In some ways God is a lot like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster -- has numbers of devoted believers who jump on any straw to believe.

Or Karma, Nirvana, or Noble Truths?

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God is on a two-week holiday, except his week lasts 1000 years for us. :innocent:

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Here is a question I pose: Why hasnt "God" performed any miracles in the last 2000 years... since supposedly resurrecting Jesus?

Why is everything in the Bible ancient, thousands of years ago, and nothing new has gone on.

Now, yes, the Bible itself (Torah) was written thousands of years ago, and no amendments have been made; it's not the U.S. constitution after all. However, if "God" wants to prove to the disbelievers, the atheists, the scientists who laugh at the 6 day creation, miracles, Adam&Eve, etc. and believe in evolution, then why not just perform some awesome miracle unexplained by science.

How about turning the Sun green, or making all nuclear weapons disappear(poof all gone!), or curing all who have cancer, AIDS, Down Syndrome;

Make my mother-in-law disappear; reveal where Jimmy Hoffa and Emilia Earnhardt are, who shot JR, etc.

Or, "God" could just send a messiah to fix the world, end all misery, warfare, and all humans will live in peace.

"God" where are you?

It's an interesting question.

According to scripture, did God ever perform miracles for those who were not "God's people" (i.e. the Israelites, Jews)? With the exception of the miracles allegedly performed by Jesus, which can be excepted as Jesus is also alleged to be God, I can't think of any?

Which leads to the question, perhaps there are no more of "God's people" on Earth? This might present a problem for the believers in that God, but this can also be rationalised through the "end times" scenario having already been played out and those 'believers' are actually living in a hell of their own self-delusion.

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Sometimes you have to watch your Sims family for awhile just to see what they'll do with free will.

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Or Karma, Nirvana, or Noble Truths?

I dunno; I suspect these are more like teachings than like the existence of some entity, so it depends on whether the teachings holds up to reason or no, not up to miracles and wonders and other myths.

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Or Karma, Nirvana, or Noble Truths?

Another thought comes to me -- your point is "tu quoque." I realize that half the arguments we see on this board are one logical fallacy or another, but maybe it doesn't hurt to point them out.

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Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

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Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

Yes, I do, just to prove God does exist.

How about a cow giving birth to a human, or a human to a penguin?

Or God making apes at the zoo suddenly be able to talk? Now that would be prove positive of an existence of an all-mighty creator who can do anything with his creation.

Acts of nature do not prove anything.

People surviving plane or car crashes just proves that _some_ did get lucky while others did not. Just like winning the PB or MM lottery; proves you got lucky... if I win tonight's MM $69m then I am a believer in miracles.

Edited by Gomar
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In some ways God is a lot like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster

No, there is a lot more evidence for Sasquatch... just saying :)

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