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Gomar

why has "God" done nothing in 2k years?

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Easy, it's still "the seventh day" as far as God's concerned, so he's pottering around his garden, thinking about going down the pub and wondering about the cricket scores.

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show me a single place in the Bible where God performs a miracle for the sole purpose of proving that he exists.

I would argue that the Trinitarian God did this when He incarnated as Jesus, that whosever lives and believes in me shall never die.

That said, there have been many alleged apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, several had eye-witnesses in the thousands, in the 20th century. Not sure what that proves though as all kinds of explanations can be made. I find them tantalizing though.

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Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

Sorry but I know how a baby happens and how a sunrise happens. That sort of primitive emotional naiveté, though, is kinda cute.
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I would argue that the Trinitarian God did this when He incarnated as Jesus, that whosever lives and believes in me shall never die.

That said, there have been many alleged apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, several had eye-witnesses in the thousands, in the 20th century. Not sure what that proves though as all kinds of explanations can be made. I find them tantalizing though.

I don't think its very fair of the Trinitarian God to not give everlasting life to everyone He has created, and instead to expect belief on such flimsy and mythical evidence.

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It's an interesting question.

According to scripture, did God ever perform miracles for those who were not "God's people" (i.e. the Israelites, Jews)? With the exception of the miracles allegedly performed by Jesus, which can be excepted as Jesus is also alleged to be God, I can't think of any?

Which leads to the question, perhaps there are no more of "God's people" on Earth? This might present a problem for the believers in that God, but this can also be rationalised through the "end times" scenario having already been played out and those 'believers' are actually living in a hell of their own self-delusion.

Definitely an interesting question. I don't know if it counts but Aaron (brother of Moses) turned his staff into a snake to show the Egyptians the power of God and when the Egyptian magicians duplicated his trick his snake ate all their snakes. And of course the ten plagues, but maybe that's not what you meant.

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I don't think its very fair of the Trinitarian God to not give everlasting life to everyone He has created, and instead to expect belief on such flimsy and mythical evidence.

I agree. I think something like huge lettering on the moon visible from earth, reading "Jesus lives" (in Greek of course) would be more convincing.

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Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

Ever seen a deformed baby? Or a disabled one? What could an unborn baby have done to deserve still birth? I think childbirth is proof that our genes produce errors that can have extremely negative effects. A biological function performing as intended is not a miracle.

What about the names Kepler, Copernicus, Galieo and Newton? Again the sunrise is the product of physical forces and isn't a miracle. The fact that it's beautiful to look at is purely coincidental. If we had evolved as nocturnal creatures we would probably find the sunset more beautiful. Personally I think a starry sky on a clear moonless night is more beautiful, but beauty doesn't imply a miraculous or divine cause. :)

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Ever seen a deformed baby? Or a disabled one? What could an unborn baby have done to deserve still birth?

The best example of this are harlequin babies. I'm not going to link to any sites, if you want to see them just throw that term into Google images.

I think childbirth is proof that our genes produce errors that can have extremely negative effects. A biological function performing as intended is not a miracle.

Yes, unfortunately that's the price we pay for random mutations and evolution.

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Definitely an interesting question. I don't know if it counts but Aaron (brother of Moses) turned his staff into a snake to show the Egyptians the power of God and when the Egyptian magicians duplicated his trick his snake ate all their snakes. And of course the ten plagues, but maybe that's not what you meant.

And I'm sure the Egyptian army noticed the parting of the Red Sea... for a few minutes anyway.

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A few years ago I was walking down the street and noticed a guy looking up at the sky. I hoped he was seeing something interesting like a flying saucer but all I saw were clouds.

"Do you see it?" he asked me. "That's incredible!". I still didn't see it.

He pointed to a cloud whose top had been sheered off, most likely due to a temperature inversion that creates strong winds that melt the crystals in clouds. Sometimes they're so fast that they'll give clouds this "flat top" look for a while.

Anyway I tried to explain this to the fellow but he wouldn't listen to my sciency mumbo-jumbo. Instead he rambled on and on at me about God and whatnot.

"It's a miracle. We live in a world of miracles all around us. God presents them to us but we're just too blind to notice them!"

I thought it was sad that God would stoop to presenting miracles in cloud formations.

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In some ways God is a lot like Sasquatch or the Loch Ness Monster -- has numbers of devoted believers who jump on any straw to believe.

One big difference- there is more evidence for Sasquatch and the Loch Ness Monster ;)

Edited by Einsteinium

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I agree. I think something like huge lettering on the moon visible from earth, reading "Jesus lives" (in Greek of course) would be more convincing.

I sometimes wonder what I would do if one morning the Heavenly Host appeared in the sky, etc. My philosophical reasons for why no God worth His salt would stoop to miracles is strong enough that I would figure "fraud," but for pragmatic reasons would probably play along.
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The best example of this are harlequin babies.

Ever see that Twilight Zone episode 'In the Eye of the Beholder'?

Ugly people are normal, and "normal" people are ugly, and are sent off to live on an island.

Imagine if 99% of all humans looked like harlequin babies. Would someone like Marilyn Monroe be considered beautiful?

If aliens exist, would they consider humans ugly?

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I dunno; I suspect these are more like teachings than like the existence of some entity, so it depends on whether the teachings holds up to reason or no, not up to miracles and wonders and other myths.

Ok, I'll agree on terms of karma and the Noble Truths. But Nirvana is a place. Well, it's a state of existence (or rather non-existence). In any case it's comparable to belief in God (at least as similar as your comparison to sasquatch et al).

Another thought comes to me -- your point is "tu quoque." I realize that half the arguments we see on this board are one logical fallacy or another, but maybe it doesn't hurt to point them out.

To an extent, except I'm not using this to discredit your premise. I'm simply saying that what's good for the goose, if you take my meaning.
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Ever see that Twilight Zone episode 'In the Eye of the Beholder'?

Ugly people are normal, and "normal" people are ugly, and are sent off to live on an island.

Imagine if 99% of all humans looked like harlequin babies. Would someone like Marilyn Monroe be considered beautiful?

If aliens exist, would they consider humans ugly?

Do you even know what you're talking about? Ugly would be least of your problems.
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I would argue that the Trinitarian God did this when He incarnated as Jesus, that whosever lives and believes in me shall never die.

That said, there have been many alleged apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, several had eye-witnesses in the thousands, in the 20th century. Not sure what that proves though as all kinds of explanations can be made. I find them tantalizing though.

And I would argue that the use of the word "believe" has stronger connections with faith and trust. After all, if you believe James 2, even demons "believe" in God, but they shudder. And that's not even deriving into the deeper theological issues of prophecy, salvation, and the nature of God's covenant with Abraham.

Nor is it taking into consideration the context of John 3:16, which doesn't actually say "God incarnated his son so that those who believed might have eternal life". The wording is that "God GAVE his only son...", the implication being Jesus' death. Death is not a miracle. A virgin birth is, and a resurrection is, but neither of these were done solely to prove that he is God.

So whichever way you look at it, my point still firmly stands - nowhere in scripture are miracles done just to prove that God is God so to expect otherwise is pointless.

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I'm agnostic but I feel inclined to respond to this.

Have you ever heard of tumor remissions? It is were tumors in cancer patients randomly disappear for no apparent reason. Or of people surviving horrible accidents without a scratch. Or having broken limbs heal in unbelievable amounts of time.

I would calls those miracles :innocent:

Tumours in remission aren't miracles, they are simply the result of the body's own complex mechanisms, healing the tumour.........but sadly all too often the awesome body's ablities to heal itself will fail against cancer and other fatal diseases.

As for people surviving horrible accidents with no scratch, well probably they were lucky, or I am even willing to entertain that some may have been"protected" by a loved one passed on (yes ghosts/spirits etc).

As for broken limbs..........well how is it that God can supossedly heal broken limbs...........but he has yet to help any human amputee grow back a limb.......does he have something against amputees? :unsure2:

Edited by klambo
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Have you ever seen a newborn baby? Have you ever seen a sunrise? You need more "miracles" than those?

Hitler was once a newborn baby. :cry:

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Seems god has stopped producing miracles himself since man discovered how nature works, this does not apply to all man though, some still think nature is rules by a higher force, i say nature IS the higher force.

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So whichever way you look at it, my point still firmly stands - nowhere in scripture are miracles done just to prove that God is God so to expect otherwise is pointless.

Yes, I think you are right. I was just trying to think of any counter-example, and I knew my claim was flawed when I posted it.

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Hitler was once a newborn baby. :cry:

Did he have a little baby Hitler mustache? :unsure2: As a baby even Hitler was innocent

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Ok, I'll agree on terms of karma and the Noble Truths. But Nirvana is a place. Well, it's a state of existence (or rather non-existence). In any case it's comparable to belief in God (at least as similar as your comparison to sasquatch et al).

I'm of the opinion that much of Buddhism sees "Nirvana" as extinction, but of course a lot of people want immortality so that makes for a hard sell. I don't know.

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I'm of the opinion that much of Buddhism sees "Nirvana" as extinction, but of course a lot of people want immortality so that makes for a hard sell. I don't know.

I was under the impression that nirvana was the reunification of the soul with the god-soul
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Which would be extinction of the individual mind.

A a general rule the nature of Nirvana is left alone: the basic idea is to stop the rebirth process. Later forms of Buddhism developed all sorts of ideas not unlike the paradises of other religions, but I think the earliest idea was simple extinction -- stopping the process of rebirth under the premise that life is suffering. It is a hard sell, that all we have is the choice between continuing unending lives that always end badly and extinction, but maybe that is the reality.

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Where is God now?

A Christian’s answer to this question, which you may not believe, but it’s my two cents….

The final miracle:

Whether you believe in a God or not you have a natural sense of right and wrong. We may even disagree on what is right or wrong, but you have a set of laws in you that initiates a feeling of guilt when you break them.

Is our nature good? Have you ever told a lie, Evan a white lie? Will a million truths take away the one lie? Once you tell that first lie, you’re always a liar? If I murder a person, and later save a million lives, am I still a murderer? If I take something that did not belong to me even the smallest thing? Will that make me, a thief?

No amount of good deeds will ever erase the crimes I have committed.

I understand that everyone has done these things and it is part of being human! That’s the point, that buy one man’s fall (ADAM), we all became human and corrupt in that we do the things we all know are wrong. If Adam had not disobeyed, we all would have escaped being human, with no children dying and no disease and heaven would come free to everyone.

If a judge is truly good, he has to carry out the sentence. If he lets me get away with the crime, he would be a corrupt judge and not good. The Christian belief is that, if we ever break any of the Ten Commandments, that the penalty is a second death. It is impossible to keep the commandments in this human form and no one ever has or ever will.

What was the final miracle?(for believers) it is that a half Man/ half God (Jesus) came to earth sent by his father, the Judge. He being the son of the Judge (God) born to a human woman, gave him the power to obey all of the Ten Commandments. Jesus the Christ was not a law breaker like all of humanity. Imagine you’re in court guilty and someone stands and says your honor, I have never broken the law and if the law requires a death, I will die to let the law breaker live. The judge who is good has provided a way of escape by sacrificing his own son; to satisfy the law we all are guilty of breaking. If Jesus had ever once broken any of the law himself, he would have deserved a death sentence and could not take our punishment on himself.

So how do you know that any of this is real? God doesn’t desire us to make a belief out of this story. Every believer in Christ has evidence and facts or they cannot be believers. Faith is not you believing a story I told you. Faith is the evidence you have and why you believe me.

Individual miracles continue, If God sending his son to the earth to die for us was not enough of a miracle for those who walked with him, nothing will be. I suppose when we die, we will know if it was true, but what happens to us if we are wrong?

I am guilty! Have you ever told a lie? or stolen?

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