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Elfin

God, Mary and Jesus, the original Trinity

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There is good evidence that the early church recognised God the Father, Mary the Mother and Jesus the Son as the original Trinity. Not only is this a direct equivalent of Osiris, Isis and Horus, whose primordial myth is the original model for all dying and resurrecting gods of the mystery schools, such as those of Mithras and Jesus, but it is even stated explicitly in the Koran that this is what Christians worship, and was roundly condemned by Muhammad.

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I would ask what the good evidence is, is it the Koran itself?

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I always thought Satan should've been part of the GodHead. The OT depicts him as an agent of God.

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Elfin please post the evidence you are talking about.

:)

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The first thing comes to my mind when someone mentions Trinity is Tertullian. He is the one of the brains(?) behind that concept. One passage written by Tertullian cannot escape my mind.

Basically Tertullian taught that one of the biggest entertainment Christians will enjoy in Heaven is to watch unbelievers getting tormented and roasted in Hell for Eternity.

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I woudln't say his views exactly lined up with the principles of Christ

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Man, I've actually read some research papers from Catholic seminaries and I came to believe that human mind can create elaborate theology out of something like...uh...The Smurfs.

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Alot of statements here and not much else.

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The Egyptians had an Ennead a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong and there is no comparison to the Christian Trinity.

The early church believed in the doctrine of the Trinity which is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." That 'is' the Holy Trinity.

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Man, I've actually read some research papers from Catholic seminaries and I came to believe that human mind can create elaborate theology out of something like...uh...The Smurfs.

The human mind, sadly, is the reason you are sitting at a computer and are able to type unflattering statements about Christianity and Catholicism. I think to put theology and smurfs in the same sentence undermines the capabilities of the human mind. Back to the original post.

I thought the word Trinity is not directly in the new testament, but the concept is used to describe "father, the son and the holy spirit" which is actually in the bible. Where does Mary come into play ?

Also Muhhamad was very mysogynistic, so it could be something he was using to help convert others to islam ... Just a thought.

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The Egyptians had an Ennead a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong and there is no comparison to the Christian Trinity.

The early church believed in the doctrine of the Trinity which is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." That 'is' the Holy Trinity.

I didn't say the Egyptians regarded Osiris, Isis and Horus as members of a Trinity in the Christian sense, merely that the Christian idea is derived from it.

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I didn't say the Egyptians regarded Osiris, Isis and Horus as members of a Trinity in the Christian sense, merely that the Christian idea is derived from it.

And I didn't say you did. Semantics.

Edited by Star of the Sea
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I didn't say the Egyptians regarded Osiris, Isis and Horus as members of a Trinity in the Christian sense, merely that the Christian idea is derived from it.

I don't think the idea was derived from the Egyptians - I think it was just a logical way of explaining how you can have one God being monotheistic with multiple divine entities (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit).

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I don't think the idea was derived from the Egyptians - I think it was just a logical way of explaining how you can have one God being monotheistic with multiple divine entities (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit).

Lots of Pagan religions had groups of three gods.

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Lots of Pagan religions had groups of three gods.

Out of curiosity what would be the signifigance of three ?

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The human mind, sadly, is the reason you are sitting at a computer and are able to type unflattering statements about Christianity and Catholicism. I think to put theology and smurfs in the same sentence undermines the capabilities of the human mind. Back to the original post.

I thought the word Trinity is not directly in the new testament, but the concept is used to describe "father, the son and the holy spirit" which is actually in the bible. Where does Mary come into play ?

Also Muhhamad was very mysogynistic, so it could be something he was using to help convert others to islam ... Just a thought.

I swear that my comment was not really a cheap blow. When I was reading through all the papers written by eminent priest I simply couldn't believe they allocate much of their brain power to research on...oh, well.

Now I know that people like you will never comprehend. But trust me, I felt really devastated when I was doing the small study. Even Trekkies and Warhammer nuts can come up with more useful ideas.

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I swear that my comment was not really a cheap blow. When I was reading through all the papers written by eminent priest I simply couldn't believe they allocate much of their brain power to research on...oh, well.

Now I know that people like you will never comprehend. But trust me, I felt really devastated when I was doing the small study. Even Trekkies and Warhammer nuts can come up with more useful ideas.

What will people like me never comprehend ? I'm not sure what your eluding to, please elaborate on what you are trying to say. I am just curious btw.

Edited by Codemonger

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There is good evidence that the early church recognised God the Father, Mary the Mother and Jesus the Son as the original Trinity.

There is? What evidence would that be? The earliest textual records indicate a Father/Son/Spirit relationship. The worship of Mary has only ever been a minor sect that has almost universally been viewed as heretical (incidentally, Mohammed grew up in a region where such a heretical sect likely existed - from memory I think they were known as the Colyridians - hence why Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead).

Not only is this a direct equivalent of Osiris, Isis and Horus, whose primordial myth is the original model for all dying and resurrecting gods of the mystery schools, such as those of Mithras and Jesus, but it is even stated explicitly in the Koran that this is what Christians worship, and was roundly condemned by Muhammad.

As noted, Mohammed commenting on Mary does not indicate what the earliest believers thought - at best it indicates what a small sect of Christians in one isolated area during the seventh century AD believed.

For the rest, forgive me for not buying into Zeitgeist conspiracy propaganda.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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...The worship of Mary has only ever been a minor sect that has almost universally been viewed as heretical (incidentally, Mohammed grew up in a region where such a heretical sect likely existed - from memory I think they were known as the Colyridians - hence why Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead).

hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity? Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her. From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

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hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity? Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her. From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

I agree. What many Christians, especially Catholics, do to Mary is definitely worship by any reasonable definition of the word.

Not that I'm criticising them for this. The divine feminine is very important within Paganism.

Edited by Elfin

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I agree. What many Christians, especially Catholics, do to Mary is definitely worship by any reasonable definition of the word.

Not that I'm criticising them for this. The divine feminine is very important within Paganism.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck...then it's pretty obvious.

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hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity? Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her. From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

1- I was not brought up in a Christian environment.

2- I'm not Catholic.

3- Even if I were, Catholicism does not "worship" Mary.

4- Even if it did, this does not reflect early Christian teaching, only Christianity as it evolved throughout the centuries.

5- Not all Christians are Catholic, so even if everything above is true (and it's not, based on my research) it doesn't account for all Christians, and certainly not for the earliest believers (which the comment I referred to was addressed towards).

6- Even though Mary is revered in Catholic tradition that is not proof that Mary was ever part of the trinity (especially in the beliefs of the earliest Christians).

I agree. What many Christians, especially Catholics, do to Mary is definitely worship by any reasonable definition of the word.

Not that I'm criticising them for this. The divine feminine is very important within Paganism.

You still haven't provided any of this "good evidence" you claimed in your OP. Don't think that it hasn't gone unnoticed. Remember, you used the phrase "good evidence" in relation to the earliest believers (aka, first century AD). But all I've seen is misrepresented Roman Catholic tradition (sometime after 5th century AD) and the Qu'ran (somewhere around the 7th century AD).

I'm still waiting on this promised evidence.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity? Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her. From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

I'm not doubting that you have had a Catholic upbringing but I think your understanding of Catholic Teaching is (with the greatest of respect) incorrect. Roman Catholics do not 'ask for forgiveness' from the Virgin Mary for their sins. That can only be obtained through an ordained Catholic Priest. When a Priest asks you to pray an 'Our Father or Hail Mary' after absolution it's just a form of penance to complete the Sacrament... Catholics do not worship the Blessed Mother but honour her as the Mother of God and only ask her to 'intercede' on their behalf to Jesus for them. She is 'in no way or form' seen as a deity.

http://www.thecathol...n.com/id52.html

Edited by Star of the Sea
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I think it may go all the way back to . . . Father Sky , and his SUN /son .. and Mother Earth.

..

Edited by lightly

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hmm, couldn't you say all Christians regard Mary as a deity? Being brought up Catholic Christian, we were told to pray to Mary, ask Mary for forgiveness and recite many "Hail Mary"s for our sins, often in prayer spots in church that had images of Mary under which you kneeled to pray to her. From my experience, Christians saying Mary is not regarded as a deity is purely an exercise in semantics.

Prayer and Worship are two different things ... Catholics are only taught the Mary is the mother of Jesus, and yes she is revered as a very important person, I don't think it is a big deal considering the fact she was an important person.

There is a lot of history with the Hail Mary, the prayer looks like this - asking Mary to pray with/for you:

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners
, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hail_Mary

Edited by Codemonger
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