God, Mary and Jesus, the original Trinity

[eight bits]

PA

hence why Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead).

You and I have been over this, I think, in earlier threads. There's a Koran verse, 5:116

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

- So. Mohammed teaches that somebody thinks Mary is a goddess. Unfortunately, there is no evidence whom he's talking about, nor is his teaching it evidence that anybody does think that. There'd be plenty of open veneration of Mary in Seventh Century Byzantine churches for him to have encountered. Just as here on the webz, there's no law that prevents him from choosing, for whatever rhetorical effect, to describe that veneration as worship.

- According to the First Millennium Orthodox churches, the chief natural distinction of Jesus, resurrection, is shared by his mother (with the possible complication that, in the West, there is no consensus teaching that she died first, much as Paul allows that possibility for all people living when Jesus returns). Mohammed teaches that Isa didn't rtise from the dead. So, there may be some confusion on this score.

- Collyridians: while intriguing, there is no evidence that their beliefs are documented, only their praxis, the Biblically attested seasonal pracitce of women offering cake loaves to a "Queen" of heaven figure. In Biblical times, QoH was a pagan goddess, although some of the practitioners were Jewish women in Judea. While this was no doubt shocking to their menfolk, the women were Jewesses, not pagans. Similarly, women in the Chrisitan era may have been entirely orthodox in their beliefs, and the ritual like Christmas trees, Easter bunnies, etc. Some Christians object to those things as (in one sense or another) idolatrous, and other Christians just do them.

(There is no question that the Christian commentators' purpose for calling attention to the survival of this practice was to argue against women having a voice in running the church, by the way. Another topic.)

- Veneration: I think you hold the record as the person with whom I have at greatest length discussed the membership rules of the Roman Catholic Church. Long story short, death does not end anybody's membership in the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church. Additionally, the Roman Church is silent on whether Mary did or did not die. Either way, Mary is, at this moment, a fully paid-up member in good standing of the Mystical Body. There is no more issue in asking her for her prayers than there is in asking your neighbor. The Protestant-baiting tag line on the "Hail Mary" (added to what is a plainly Biblical address to Mary) is "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our deaths." Facially, this asks a fellow member of one's church for her prayers. There is no real issue here, just rhetoric.

- Finally, Mohammed almost certainly encountered the title Theotokos, Mother of God. In his experience with pagan religions, the blood ancestors of gods were themselves typically gods. The inference in 5:116 need be no more elaborate than that. Taking into account that ordinary Christians venerated Mary, addressed her as the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven (not just Collyridian, but also an orthodox liturgical title of Mary), and thought her to have risen to heaven - well, she swims like a goddess, flies like a goddess and quacks like a goddess - so, she's a goddess - or close enough for the discerning scholarship of Mohammed and his audience.

---

ETA I had forgotten that the reason why we had disucssed this before was that if Mohammed had taught that Orthodoxy held that Mary was a goddess and member of the Trinity instead of the Holy Spirit, then it would be a "mistake in the Koran." While I bow to nobody in my critical view about the factual reliability of the Koran, there is no clear mistake of fact here. It is unclear whose beliefs Mohammed is discussing, and if he is discussing Orthodox beliefs, then Mary, as portrayed by the historical Orthodox churches, has enough attributes of a goddess, according to the standards of ancient Arab culture, to motivate the question imputed to Allah.

Edited September 3, 2013 by eight bits

[Star of the Sea]

I'm not Catholic, so I'm not exactly an "insider" but I don't see it as worship either. Asking Mary to intercede in prayer is like going to a Christian you trust and saying "hey, I've got a problem, can you pray for me"? Catholics believe the saints in heaven can act in that way

I don't believe that. I don't believe asking Mary to intercede for me will help. She's just as dead as everyone else who passed on, and her role as the saviour's mother doesn't change anything (in my religious beliefs, at least). So I think Catholics are mistaken in seeking intercession from saints, but I see why they do it and how it's not a form of worship.

Hi PA,

I really appreciate your thoughtful and respectful post towards Catholic belief. Hope you have settled well in your new home

Edited September 3, 2013 by Star of the Sea

[Star of the Sea]

An illiterate rural housewife who was a preteen mother became the Queen of the Heaven. A farce.

If the Blessed Virgin Mary had been in her twenties and had come from a wealthy family, would you of found that more credible?

[Elfin]

One thing we know for sure is that she didn't stay a virgin. Jesus had brothers and sisters.

[Star of the Sea]

One thing we know for sure is that she didn't stay a virgin. Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Really? Read 'The Protoevangelium of James' written approx 60 years after the life of the Virgin Mary.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Star of the Sea

[eight bits]

PA

Just to clarify, reviewing what I wrote:

I didn't mean to suggest that I recall all the nuances of your position in the earlier thread about supposed Koranic references to the Trinity, beyond what you seem to say again in this one, "...Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead...".

My various Marian veneration remarks were not directed to your position in either thread, but that an issue that others have raised here was also a factor in assessing the actual nature of what Mohammed may have observed. Both aspects of the question can be resolved or illuminated by reference to an issue that you and I have discussed elsewhere. A lot .

[Elfin]

Really? Read 'The Protoevangelium of James' written approx 60 years after the life of the Virgin Mary.

I prefer to rely on Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55–56. Jesus's brothers are listed as James (who succeeded him as head of the Jerusalem church), Joseph, Judas and Simon. He also had at least 2 unnamed sisters.

[Star of the Sea]

I prefer to rely on Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55–56. Jesus's brothers are listed as James (who succeeded him as head of the Jerusalem church), Joseph, Judas and Simon. He also had at least 2 unnamed sisters.

Why?

[Elfin]

Why?

Because one of the best ways of determining if a passage in the Bible is genuine, or a later insertion, is if it contradicts later church doctrine. If it does, then it's not likely to have been added. Both those passages are very explicit, and list Jesus's brothers by name. St Paul also mentions James being his brother.

[Star of the Sea]

Because one of the best ways of determining if a passage in the Bible is genuine, or a later insertion, is if it contradicts later church doctrine. If it does, then it's not likely to have been added. Both those passages are very explicit, and list Jesus's brothers by name. St Paul also mentions James being his brother.

You have to understand the meaning of the Greek word 'Aldophes or plural adelphoi' and how it cross references with scripture.

[Elfin]

You have to understand the meaning of the Greek word 'Aldophes or plural adelphoi' and how it cross references with scripture.

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus

[Star of the Sea]

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia...others_of_Jesus

Fine. If you understand, then in your own words critically explain why you think Jesus had siblings using the Greek word 'adelphoi' using Matthew 13:55-56 with John 19:25 cross referencing with Matthew 27:56

[Elfin]

Fine. If you understand, then in your own words critically explain why you think Jesus had siblings using the Greek word 'adelphoi' using Matthew 13:55-56 with John 19:25 cross referencing with Matthew 27:56

Because it says he did. Adelphoi is the Greek word for brothers.

John 19:25 says nothing about his brothers and is therefore not relevant.

[eight bits]

Not that the question is a major preoccupation of mine, but if we scroll down from Mark 6:3 to verse 17, we see that Philip, the first hsuband of Herodias and usually called Herod II, is described as the "brother" of Herod Antipas. They were actually half-brothers. Their father was Herod the Great, Antipas' mother was Malthace and Philip's mother was the second Mariamne.

I wonder how come Protestants and Catholics have never debated this before .

[ambelamba]

And here I was about to believe your story of being a born again non sexist, non misogynist non SOB.

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=253969

I think this explains your poor attitude towards this subject, your words not mine:

"I used to be a very sexist, misogynist SOB. Although I never committed such horrible crime in my life, my wretched inner past haunted me and tortured me. And I gotta confess, the culture in my homeland is a vastly misogynist and rapist-friendly"

I guess you are my enemy.

[ambelamba]

One thing we know for sure is that she didn't stay a virgin. Jesus had brothers and sisters.

One thing that makes me wonder is that the name 'Mary' is missing in the Gospel of Mark. And even in the Gospel of John. One soul-crushing possibility is that her name could have been nowhere near Mary or Miriam.

But...in my newly found belief, anything is possible, except that it won't be of supernatural origin. What we perceive as being supernatural might be no more than a system glitch or someone using a cheat code. Who knows? Maybe Jesus really rose from the dead and the corpses actually were re-animated during the event, except that the 'administrator' simply deleted the evidences to confuse the hell out of the sims...I mean us.

To make this horrible speculation even more bone-chilling, we can assume that everything in the Bible actually happened, except that the reason for the lack of evidence can be rather disturbing. Probably this world has been 'rewritten' or 'patched' for whatever reason, and there's no reason to find any form of spiritual comfort from the Scripture even if the whole book contained what actually happened. Why? Because all those event were nothing but the results of some joke.

When someone reaches to this conclusion, probably he/she will start spewing out expletives in every couple of words. That's what I am doing now in real life. Because the whole world is just a sick joke.

MORE EDIT: Then I started to think. I started to gravitate toward Buddhism even more. If you read Pali Canon, you will see that you are dealing with a entirely different worldview from Abrahamic one. Actually if you study Eastern ideas you will see a vastly alien perspective on many things from Semitic one. I kid you not. In the East there's was virtually no boundary between philosophy and religion. And people didn't care. Those thinkers could put that clown on shame.

Just a non-sequitur, when Confucius traveled around with his students, kings and rulers hated him because Confucius urged them to be merciful and compassionate to their subjects. He actually went to the royal courts and actually taught the kings and rulers, unlike that clown. And I gotta tell you, Confucius realized that obsessing with afterlife is plain idiotic and taught everyone to stay away from such belief.

Edited September 3, 2013 by ambelamba

[ambelamba]

And now I found an interesting quote from a renowned Canadian environmental activist, Paul Watson.

To him, we are just a bunch of primates out of control.

And I know that there was at least this one guy who tried to keep those 'primates' in a good order through good things. And I can damn sure he wasn't born in 1st century Palestine.

[Elfin]

Not that the question is a major preoccupation of mine, but if we scroll down from Mark 6:3 to verse 17, we see that Philip, the first hsuband of Herodias and usually called Herod II, is described as the "brother" of Herod Antipas. They were actually half-brothers. Their father was Herod the Great, Antipas' mother was Malthace and Philip's mother was the second Mariamne.

I wonder how come Protestants and Catholics have never debated this before .

Since Jesus's father probably wasn't Joseph (it was either god, or a Roman soldier named Panthera, according to early reports, take your pick), whereas the father of the others probably was Joseph, that fits perfectly. The alternative, that Mary wasn't their mother, would make them not related by blood to Jesus at all.

[ambelamba]

Since Jesus's father probably wasn't Joseph (it was either god, or a Roman soldier named Panthera, according to early reports, take your pick), whereas the father of the others probably was Joseph, that fits perfectly. The alternative, that Mary wasn't their mother, would make them not related by blood to Jesus at all.

Scholars tend to say Joseph was the father of Jesus. And I see this as a result of internal politics. If eminent scholars claimed anything close to Panthera hypothesis in public, any Christian with automatic weapons would have a field day. I can see that even Bart Ehrman keeps pulling the punch, obviously because he wants to keep his job. I bet part of him has a very unkind opinion on Jesus, but he doesn't explicitly express it because Bart's gotta eat too.

[ambelamba]

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia...others_of_Jesus

One thing that bugs me about a certain UM member on this topic is this:Lay Catholic people have no knowledge of a lot of things this member believes. How do I know? I was raised Catholic! And most Catholics go on living happy lives without digging deep into Catholic doctrines! And I can confidently say lay people with such intense level of theological knowledge and devotion are...not normal people.

[Elfin]

That may be the literal meaning to some extent, but even the secular greek meaning is used in different ways depending on the context.

No, we are not. I just think your statement was very degenerate, and that was my explanation of why.

That is a bold lie.

I don't believe you were raised a Catholic, you make very wild statements that just don't add up.

What is it about the context of those verses that makes you think that anything other than a literal meaning is intended?

[Star of the Sea]

Because it says he did. Adelphoi is the Greek word for brothers.

John 19:25 says nothing about his brothers and is therefore not relevant.

The Greek word for brother (adelphos; plural adelphoi) does mean sibling also there are precise Greek words for cousin, nephew, and other close relations. Adelphos is the word used whenever there's a mention of Jesus' "brothers" (Mt 12:46; 13:55-56; Mk 6:3; Jn 7:5; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor 9:5).

However, Adelphos does not only mean sibling in the New Testament. In Matthew 13:55-56 four men are named as brothers (adelphoi) of the Lord: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is wrong to conclude that these are at least some of Mary's children. The New Testament proves otherwise.

In John 19:25 we read, "Standing by the foot of the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary of Magdala." Cross reference this with Matthew 27:56: "Among them [at the cross] were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee." We see that at least two of the men mentioned in Matthew 13 were definitely not siblings of Jesus (although they're called adelphoi); they were Jesus' cousins; sons of their mother's sister.

The Bible is simply silent on the exact relationship between Jesus and the other two men, Simon and Jude, mentioned in Matthew 13. This proves two important things. First, it proves that the Greek word for brother is sometimes used to mean something other than sibling, and it proves that Matthew 13:55-56 in no way demonstrates that Mary had other children.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Star of the Sea

[Elfin]

The Greek word for brother (adelphos; plural adelphoi) does mean sibling also there are precise Greek words for cousin, nephew, and other close relations. Adelphos is the word used whenever there's a mention of Jesus' "brothers" (Mt 12:46; 13:55-56; Mk 6:3; Jn 7:5; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor 9:5).

However, Adelphos does not only mean sibling in the New Testament. In Matthew 13:55-56 four men are named as brothers (adelphoi) of the Lord: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude. It is wrong to conclude that these are at least some of Mary's children. The New Testament proves otherwise.

In John 19:25 we read, "Standing by the foot of the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary of Magdala." Cross reference this with Matthew 27:56: "Among them [at the cross] were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee." We see that at least two of the men mentioned in Matthew 13 were definitely not siblings of Jesus (although they're called adelphoi); they were Jesus' cousins--sons of their mother's sister.

The Bible is simply silent on the exact relationship between Jesus and the other two men, Simon and Jude, mentioned in Matthew 13. This proves two important things. First, it proves that the Greek word for brother is sometimes used to mean something other than sibling, and it proves that Matthew 13:55-56 in no way demonstrates that Mary had other children.

Well, lets have a closer look shall we. In John there are 4 women mentioned at the cross: Mary (Jesus's mother), her unnamed sister, another Mary (wife of Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. In Matthew we have only 3 mentioned: Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of James and Joseph) and an unnamed mother of the sons of Zebedee. This latter is presumably not Mary (wife of Cleophas) as otherwise she would be wife of Zebedee instead. So she is either Mary's sister, or another woman entirely, and the Mary mentioned is probably Jesus's mother.

[Star of the Sea]

One thing that bugs me about a certain UM member on this topic is this:Lay Catholic people have no knowledge of a lot of things this member believes. How do I know? I was raised Catholic! And most Catholics go on living happy lives without digging deep into Catholic doctrines! And I can confidently say lay people with such intense level of theological knowledge and devotion are...not normal people.

If a Roman Catholic believes the 'Virgin Mary forgives sins' and is treated as a 'deity' (which is astonishing coming from a Catholic) then something is drastically wrong with their understanding, no?... and if you were raised Catholic you should KNOW that.

[Star of the Sea]

Well, lets have a closer look shall we. In John there are 4 women mentioned at the cross: Mary (Jesus's mother), her unnamed sister, another Mary (wife of Cleophas), and Mary Magdalene. In Matthew we have only 3 mentioned: Mary Magdalene, Mary (mother of James and Joseph) and an unnamed mother of the sons of Zebedee. This latter is presumably not Mary (wife of Cleophas) as otherwise she would be wife of Zebedee instead. So she is either Mary's sister, or another woman entirely, and the Mary mentioned is probably Jesus's mother.

Not worth it Elfin. You can twist it as much as you like.