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Elfin

God, Mary and Jesus, the original Trinity

135 posts in this topic

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck...then it's pretty obvious.

This is when stereotypes can be very misguided. You are entitled to believe that Christians/Catholics worship Mary, but it doesn't mean that it is a fact or it is true.

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3- Even if I were, Catholicism does not "worship" Mary.

Catholics do not worship the Blessed Mother but honour her as the Mother of God and only ask her to 'intercede' on their behalf to Jesus for them. She is 'in no way or form' seen as a deity.

Prayer and Worship are two different things ...

From my perhaps limited perspective, all of these sound like exercises in mental gymnastics to avoid calling a spade a spade. We could argue all day about the all subtle differences between french fries and wedge-cut fries, but at the end of the day we all know that underneath they're both potatoes.

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From my perhaps limited perspective, all of these sound like exercises in mental gymnastics to avoid calling a spade a spade. We could argue all day about the all subtle differences between french fries and wedge-cut fries, but at the end of the day we all know that underneath they're both potatoes.

I agree with your statement "limited perspective", but not the rest of it. Your perception is very untrue. Catholics/Christians see Mary as a human being like you or I, why is that hard to understand ?

Edited by Codemonger
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You must be familiar with this classical Ave Maria, would you consider this worship?

Lyrics:

Ave Maria, gratia plena.

Maria, gratia plena

Maria, gratia plena

Ave, ave dominus,

Tecum.

Benedicta tu in mulieribus,

Et benedictus

Benedictus fructus ventris tui

Ventris tui, Jesus.

Ave Maria.

Benedicta tu in mulieribus,

Et benedictus

Benedictus fructus ventris tui

Ventris tui, Jesus.

Ave Maria.

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To insiders, it's not a worship. To outsiders, it seems to be. The mindset gives you a immense change in your perspective. The veneration of Mary is almost Orwellian.

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To insiders, it's not a worship. To outsiders, it seems to be. The mindset gives you a immense change in your perspective. The veneration of Mary is almost Orwellian.

I can understand your point, but I don't think it's as big of a deal as you might think. Imagine it this way, if you have a photo of a deceased loved one hanging on your wall or a keepsake of theirs, you certainly wouldn't say you worship them. If someone questioned your purpose of having the picture/keepsake of someone that is no longer with us, logically you would not have an answer, logically there is no reason. There are many other abstract reasons such as sentimental, hope, perserverance, memories, love, respect, things you really cannot explain. It would be no different than visiting the grave of a loved one to pay your respects, you are not worshipping that person. I see Mary the same way, not as a deity to worship, but as the mother of Jesus.

I am not asking to argue what I have posted, I am trying to help you understand what it is like from say my perspective. You may find that our beliefs are really probably not much different.

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To insiders, it's not a worship. To outsiders, it seems to be. The mindset gives you a immense change in your perspective. The veneration of Mary is almost Orwellian.

I'm not Catholic, so I'm not exactly an "insider" but I don't see it as worship either. Asking Mary to intercede in prayer is like going to a Christian you trust and saying "hey, I've got a problem, can you pray for me"? Catholics believe the saints in heaven can act in that way

I don't believe that. I don't believe asking Mary to intercede for me will help. She's just as dead as everyone else who passed on, and her role as the saviour's mother doesn't change anything (in my religious beliefs, at least). So I think Catholics are mistaken in seeking intercession from saints, but I see why they do it and how it's not a form of worship.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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An illiterate rural housewife who was a preteen mother became the Queen of the Heaven. A farce.

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An illiterate rural housewife who was a preteen mother became the Queen of the Heaven. A farce.

That's one exceedingly biassed way of putting it. How about a woman who had great faith in God was rewarded in her faith by giving birth to the saviour of all mankind. Just as biassed but nowhere near as negative.
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PA

hence why Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead).

You and I have been over this, I think, in earlier threads. There's a Koran verse, 5:116

And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

- So. Mohammed teaches that somebody thinks Mary is a goddess. Unfortunately, there is no evidence whom he's talking about, nor is his teaching it evidence that anybody does think that. There'd be plenty of open veneration of Mary in Seventh Century Byzantine churches for him to have encountered. Just as here on the webz, there's no law that prevents him from choosing, for whatever rhetorical effect, to describe that veneration as worship.

- According to the First Millennium Orthodox churches, the chief natural distinction of Jesus, resurrection, is shared by his mother (with the possible complication that, in the West, there is no consensus teaching that she died first, much as Paul allows that possibility for all people living when Jesus returns). Mohammed teaches that Isa didn't rtise from the dead. So, there may be some confusion on this score.

- Collyridians: while intriguing, there is no evidence that their beliefs are documented, only their praxis, the Biblically attested seasonal pracitce of women offering cake loaves to a "Queen" of heaven figure. In Biblical times, QoH was a pagan goddess, although some of the practitioners were Jewish women in Judea. While this was no doubt shocking to their menfolk, the women were Jewesses, not pagans. Similarly, women in the Chrisitan era may have been entirely orthodox in their beliefs, and the ritual like Christmas trees, Easter bunnies, etc. Some Christians object to those things as (in one sense or another) idolatrous, and other Christians just do them.

(There is no question that the Christian commentators' purpose for calling attention to the survival of this practice was to argue against women having a voice in running the church, by the way. Another topic.)

- Veneration: I think you hold the record as the person with whom I have at greatest length discussed the membership rules of the Roman Catholic Church. Long story short, death does not end anybody's membership in the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church. Additionally, the Roman Church is silent on whether Mary did or did not die. Either way, Mary is, at this moment, a fully paid-up member in good standing of the Mystical Body. There is no more issue in asking her for her prayers than there is in asking your neighbor. The Protestant-baiting tag line on the "Hail Mary" (added to what is a plainly Biblical address to Mary) is "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our deaths." Facially, this asks a fellow member of one's church for her prayers. There is no real issue here, just rhetoric.

- Finally, Mohammed almost certainly encountered the title Theotokos, Mother of God. In his experience with pagan religions, the blood ancestors of gods were themselves typically gods. The inference in 5:116 need be no more elaborate than that. Taking into account that ordinary Christians venerated Mary, addressed her as the Mother of God and Queen of Heaven (not just Collyridian, but also an orthodox liturgical title of Mary), and thought her to have risen to heaven - well, she swims like a goddess, flies like a goddess and quacks like a goddess - so, she's a goddess - or close enough for the discerning scholarship of Mohammed and his audience.

---

ETA I had forgotten that the reason why we had disucssed this before was that if Mohammed had taught that Orthodoxy held that Mary was a goddess and member of the Trinity instead of the Holy Spirit, then it would be a "mistake in the Koran." While I bow to nobody in my critical view about the factual reliability of the Koran, there is no clear mistake of fact here. It is unclear whose beliefs Mohammed is discussing, and if he is discussing Orthodox beliefs, then Mary, as portrayed by the historical Orthodox churches, has enough attributes of a goddess, according to the standards of ancient Arab culture, to motivate the question imputed to Allah.

Edited by eight bits
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An illiterate rural housewife who was a preteen mother became the Queen of the Heaven. A farce.

And here I was about to believe your story of being a born again non sexist, non misogynist non SOB.

I think this explains your poor attitude towards this subject, your words not mine:

"I used to be a very sexist, misogynist SOB. Although I never committed such horrible crime in my life, my wretched inner past haunted me and tortured me. And I gotta confess, the culture in my homeland is a vastly misogynist and rapist-friendly"
Edited by Codemonger
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I'm not Catholic, so I'm not exactly an "insider" but I don't see it as worship either. Asking Mary to intercede in prayer is like going to a Christian you trust and saying "hey, I've got a problem, can you pray for me"? Catholics believe the saints in heaven can act in that way

I don't believe that. I don't believe asking Mary to intercede for me will help. She's just as dead as everyone else who passed on, and her role as the saviour's mother doesn't change anything (in my religious beliefs, at least). So I think Catholics are mistaken in seeking intercession from saints, but I see why they do it and how it's not a form of worship.

Hi PA,

I really appreciate your thoughtful and respectful post towards Catholic belief. Hope you have settled well in your new home :tu:

Edited by Star of the Sea

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An illiterate rural housewife who was a preteen mother became the Queen of the Heaven. A farce.

If the Blessed Virgin Mary had been in her twenties and had come from a wealthy family, would you of found that more credible?

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One thing we know for sure is that she didn't stay a virgin. Jesus had brothers and sisters.

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One thing we know for sure is that she didn't stay a virgin. Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Really? Read 'The Protoevangelium of James' written approx 60 years after the life of the Virgin Mary.

Edited by Star of the Sea

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PA

Just to clarify, reviewing what I wrote:

I didn't mean to suggest that I recall all the nuances of your position in the earlier thread about supposed Koranic references to the Trinity, beyond what you seem to say again in this one, "...Mohammed mistakenly assumed all Christians worshipped Mary in the godhead...".

My various Marian veneration remarks were not directed to your position in either thread, but that an issue that others have raised here was also a factor in assessing the actual nature of what Mohammed may have observed. Both aspects of the question can be resolved or illuminated by reference to an issue that you and I have discussed elsewhere. A lot :) .

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Really? Read 'The Protoevangelium of James' written approx 60 years after the life of the Virgin Mary.

I prefer to rely on Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55–56. Jesus's brothers are listed as James (who succeeded him as head of the Jerusalem church), Joseph, Judas and Simon. He also had at least 2 unnamed sisters.

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I prefer to rely on Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55–56. Jesus's brothers are listed as James (who succeeded him as head of the Jerusalem church), Joseph, Judas and Simon. He also had at least 2 unnamed sisters.

Why?

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Why?

Because one of the best ways of determining if a passage in the Bible is genuine, or a later insertion, is if it contradicts later church doctrine. If it does, then it's not likely to have been added. Both those passages are very explicit, and list Jesus's brothers by name. St Paul also mentions James being his brother.

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Because one of the best ways of determining if a passage in the Bible is genuine, or a later insertion, is if it contradicts later church doctrine. If it does, then it's not likely to have been added. Both those passages are very explicit, and list Jesus's brothers by name. St Paul also mentions James being his brother.

You have to understand the meaning of the Greek word 'Aldophes or plural adelphoi' and how it cross references with scripture.

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You have to understand the meaning of the Greek word 'Aldophes or plural adelphoi' and how it cross references with scripture.

Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus

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Yes, I do understand it. It's quite amusing how down the centuries the church has tried to deny the plain meaning of its own sacred scripture. The best example has to be St Jerome, who claimed that Mary had a sister, also called Mary, who was the mother of these individuals.

https://en.wikipedia...others_of_Jesus

Fine. If you understand, then in your own words critically explain why you think Jesus had siblings using the Greek word 'adelphoi' using Matthew 13:55-56 with John 19:25 cross referencing with Matthew 27:56

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Fine. If you understand, then in your own words critically explain why you think Jesus had siblings using the Greek word 'adelphoi' using Matthew 13:55-56 with John 19:25 cross referencing with Matthew 27:56

Because it says he did. Adelphoi is the Greek word for brothers.

John 19:25 says nothing about his brothers and is therefore not relevant.

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Not that the question is a major preoccupation of mine, but if we scroll down from Mark 6:3 to verse 17, we see that Philip, the first hsuband of Herodias and usually called Herod II, is described as the "brother" of Herod Antipas. They were actually half-brothers. Their father was Herod the Great, Antipas' mother was Malthace and Philip's mother was the second Mariamne.

I wonder how come Protestants and Catholics have never debated this before :).

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And here I was about to believe your story of being a born again non sexist, non misogynist non SOB.

I think this explains your poor attitude towards this subject, your words not mine:

"I used to be a very sexist, misogynist SOB. Although I never committed such horrible crime in my life, my wretched inner past haunted me and tortured me. And I gotta confess, the culture in my homeland is a vastly misogynist and rapist-friendly"

I guess you are my enemy. :devil:

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