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The Puzzler

Mycenaeans, the Phaethon impact in the Baltic

41 posts in this topic

I recently read that the Mycenaeans came from Russia:

Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

seima-turbino.jpg

As I looked for info on this idea I found a forum entry with some pictures to compare Mycenaean to the Seimo-Turbino people.

http://illyria.probo...om/thread/32603

Heracles taking on the labours is possibly the Mycenaean presence in action. Typical also is the Mycenaean standard of male warrior dominating class, chariots, bronze weapons and spirals.

I'd even go as far as saying they also once lived off the old Russian coast (Estonia/Poland) in the Baltic Sea to Gotland, at the mouth of the Vistula River.

Then it all seemed to fall into place, that they bought the Phaethon event memory into Greece from Estonia and Russia.

There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt.

http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

The Phaethon event imo is the Kaali meteor impact in Estonia, which is not conclusively dated really.

Kaali is a group of 9 meteorite craters in the village of Kaali on the Estonian island of Saaremaa.[1] Formed more than 4,000 years ago (the age of the sediments at the bottom of crater lake), and possibly as long as 7,600 years ago[2] (estimates vary), it is a comparatively recent crater. It was created by an impact event and is possibly the only known major impact event that has occurred in a populated area

Eight smaller craters are also associated with this bombardment.

According to the theory of more recent impact, Estonia at the time of impact was in the Nordic Bronze Age and the site was forested with a small human population. The impact energy of about 80 TJ (20 kilotons of TNT) is comparable with that of the Hiroshima bomb blast. It incinerated forests within a 6 km radius

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice.

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. ...................

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest."

This sounds a lot like a memory that has been distorted by the time it appeared in Greek myth but what other event could it be that was remembered as the Phaethon event, if it's an impact itself..?

The labyrinths and associated things on Gotland seem to me to have been transferred into Crete, when the warrior type Mycenaeans took over there. After investigating the R1b and R1a lines and their ways (ie; male dominated warrior class who boasted of heroes with big graves filled with material culture objects) it seems a given they were part of the spread of them into Greece. They bought IE in and that's why Linear B is IE. The Greeks (Pelasgians) changed their language to IE when they (the Myc.) arrived and took control.

The impact may have destabilised the earth and initiated the major earthquakes and eruption of Thera. These may have been recorded as the Titanomachy.

This will match up with my Trojans were from the Cucuteni culture thread eventually. Older European types from the Carpathian basin, who were taken over by the Mycenaeans and their language also. Seems now that the story of the fall of Troy is a fall of the old culture of Europe, taken over by a new warrior class from the North.

Anyone got an opinion?

Edited by The Puzzler

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This will match up with my Trojans were from the Cucuteni culture thread eventually. Older European types from the Carpathian basin, who were taken over by the Mycenaeans and their language also. Seems now that the story of the fall of Troy is a fall of the old culture of Europe, taken over by a new warrior class from the North.

Anyone got an opinion?

some pots from the gumelnita culture

97_3063_3072_IMG_1124_preview.jpg

comet2.jpg

it looks to me like someone saw an amazing celestial event just north of the danube or do you see tulips too?.

http://www.cimec.ro/Arheologie/gumelnita/gumelnita_engl/cd/

i'll bet you can find the forerunners of the mycenaean gods amongst the gumelnita/karanovo/cucuteni/trypolye if you compared their idols.

peace

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some pots from the gumelnita culture

97_3063_3072_IMG_1124_preview.jpg

comet2.jpg

it looks to me like someone saw an amazing celestial event just north of the danube or do you see tulips too?.

http://www.cimec.ro/...elnita_engl/cd/

i'll bet you can find the forerunners of the mycenaean gods amongst the gumelnita/karanovo/cucuteni/trypolye if you compared their idols.

peace

Definitely tulips.....NOT.

That's great, I've never seen those pots before, wow thanks.

I now also note the ear/earring holes... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumelnita_culture

This is why I put this stuff out there, cause people like you give fantastic information that helps me connect dots - or disconnect dots.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I haven't found those pots on the site yet but some great pictures I'm seeing anyway so far, I like these, they remind me of the 'Romulus huts' found in Latium.

tn28inv15385_MMB.jpg

http://www.cimec.ro/Arheologie/gumelnita/gumelnita_engl/cd/

From Villanovan culture ie; early Latium

400px-Italic_-_Urn_in_the_Shape_of_a_Hut_and_a_Door_-_Walters_482312.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Romuli

More twins.

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I haven't found those pots on the site yet but some great pictures I'm seeing anyway so far, I like these, they remind me of the 'Romulus huts' found in Latium.

tn28inv15385_MMB.jpg

http://www.cimec.ro/...elnita_engl/cd/

From Villanovan culture ie; early Latium

400px-Italic_-_Urn_in_the_Shape_of_a_Hut_and_a_Door_-_Walters_482312.jpg

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Casa_Romuli

More twins.

hello puzzler

how about this for villanovan

villanovan.jpg

peace

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sibir_52.jpg

Seima-Turbino Warrior.

The swastika on his shield is very Indo-European.

Strange however and mentioned here is that it's also found in the Vinca culture.

Swastika symbol: This symbol, the hooked cross (crux uncinata in Latin), was widely used by IE-speaking peoples in both Europe and Asia (especially in India: the term swastika is Sanskrit). According to one theory, it was invented, and used as an ethnic emblem, by the Proto-Indo-Europeans. However, it is a documented symbol of the Stone Age Vinča culture of SE Europe (c. 5500 - 4500 BC), which was probably pre-Indo-European (although it may have been used as a hieroglyph, rather than a cultural symbol, by the Vinca people). Whatever its origin, it was widely adopted by the Indo-Europeans, among whom it probably symbolised the Sun (which was seen as a wheel rotating across the sky) and/or the Sky and was thus closely associated with their male supreme Sky-god. Among the Romans, it retained its association with the Sky-god, in their case, Jupiter: numerous dedications to Jupiter have been discovered adorned with swastikas

700BC they have dated an Etruscan pendant with swastikas - so more non IE people with swastikas it seems.

659px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Italy_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Italy_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg

They are saying that this is Jupiter - it's possibly lightning.

OK, so this kind of God is typically IE

In many cultures, lightning has been viewed as part of a deity or a deity in and of itself. These include the Greek god Zeus, the Aztec god Tlaloc, the Mayas' God K, Slavic mythology's Perun, the Baltic Pērkons/Perkūnas, Thor in Norse mythology, Ukko in Finnish mythology, the Hindu god Indra, and the Shinto god Raijin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightening

Ukko (non IE) and Thor and Perkunas all from the Baltic areas - all where I suspect the Mycenaeans came from. Since Zeus shot down Phaethon it must have been massive electrical storms when the meteor hit, at volcanic sites it must be interesting and there's plenty around the Mediterranean with Thera and Etna at the time.

I believe this lightning God was more than just regular lightening for him to be so special and powerful.

220px-Rinjani_1994.jpg

Volcanoes create powerful lightening storms too, so I can imagine his cult raised in areas of volcanic activity, maybe connected to metal working and Hephaestus too.

The Titanomachy imo is a memory of this kind of thing. Huge forces of nature, explosions of the volcano, Zeus wins type of thing. Sorry I'm getting a bit off track but I like to follow things through.

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The swastika may also represent the idealised human form, so don't be too certain of 'connecting your dots' in only one direction.

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Anyone got an opinion?

You're going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard with the myth nonsense.

The Seima-Turbino culture was to the east of the Urals. Their metallurgical tech, however, spread rapidly throughout the Eurasian Steppes, allowing it to enter the ancestral culture to the Mycenaeans. Based on archaeological evidence, the Mycenaeans appear most probably to be descended from the Catacomb culture (located mostly in modern Ukraine), with a migration from that region probably no later than c. 2000 BCE. That is, the Mycenaeans came from an area well to the East of Estonia.

You haven't even established that the Mycenaeans had the Phaethon myth, so there's no point in dreaming up an archaeologically unattested homeland for the Mycenaeans until you've at least done that.

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The swastika may also represent the idealised human form, so don't be too certain of 'connecting your dots' in only one direction.

Do I sound so confident of connecting dots in only one direction...?

that helps me connect dots - or disconnect dots

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You're going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overboard with the myth nonsense.

The Seima-Turbino culture was to the east of the Urals. Their metallurgical tech, however, spread rapidly throughout the Eurasian Steppes, allowing it to enter the ancestral culture to the Mycenaeans. Based on archaeological evidence, the Mycenaeans appear most probably to be descended from the Catacomb culture (located mostly in modern Ukraine), with a migration from that region probably no later than c. 2000 BCE. That is, the Mycenaeans came from an area well to the East of Estonia.

You haven't even established that the Mycenaeans had the Phaethon myth, so there's no point in dreaming up an archaeologically unattested homeland for the Mycenaeans until you've at least done that.

I call it comparative mythology but sorry if it's not your thing. That was mild.

I do think it's a genetic-attested homeland.

From what I know there is mtDNA U5a1 found in Grave Circle B (of the few samples they can get)

U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia,[14] Sweden,[15] France [16] and Spain. [17] Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe ~10kya.

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_U_(mtDNA)

Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal lineages of the Sámi people are the haplogroups V and U5b, ancient in Europe

Four distinct sequences (one matching the CRS, the others belonging to haplogroups U5a1 or U5a1a and UK) have apparently been published (I don't have a copy of the paper). This is a tiny sample, but the results immediately strike me as being consistent with intrusive Northern European origins for the Mycenaean elites tested (which would be in keeping with their skeletal morphology). U5a1 and U5a1a in particular are most often associated with Northern Europe. After I see the actual sequences, I may comment further.

http://racehist.blog...rave-mtdna.html

Maybe this would be a good read for you: Baltic Origin of Homer's Tales.

image-4.jpg

http://store.innertr...g=1-59477-052-2

Edited by The Puzzler

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In case no-one clicks the link http://store.innertraditions.com/Product.jmdx?action=displayDetail&id=2068&searchString=1-59477-052-2

I'll share:

About The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales

Compelling evidence that the events of Homer's Iliad and Odyssey took place in the Baltic and not the Mediterranean

• Reveals how a climate change forced the migration of a people and their myth to ancient Greece

• Identifies the true geographic sites of Troy and Ithaca in the Baltic Sea and Calypso's Isle in the North Atlantic Ocean

For years scholars have debated the incongruities in Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, given that his descriptions are at odds with the geography of the areas he purportedly describes. Inspired by Plutarch's remark that Calypso's Isle was only five days sailing from Britain, Felice Vinci convincingly argues that Homer's epic tales originated not in the Mediterranean, but in the northern Baltic Sea.

Using meticulous geographical analysis, Vinci shows that many Homeric places, such as Troy and Ithaca, can still be identified in the geographic landscape of the Baltic. He explains how the dense, foggy weather described by Ulysses befits northern not Mediterranean climes, and how battles lasting through the night would easily have been possible in the long days of the Baltic summer. Vinci's meteorological analysis reveals how a decline of the "climatic optimum" caused the blond seafarers to migrate south to warmer climates, where they rebuilt their original world in the Mediterranean. Through many generations the memory of the heroic age and the feats performed by their ancestors in their lost homeland was preserved and handed down to the following ages, only later to be codified by Homer in the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Felice Vinci offers a key to open many doors that allow us to consider the age-old question of the Indo-European diaspora and the origin of the Greek civilization from a new perspective.

About the Author(s) of The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales

Felice Vinci is a nuclear engineer with an extensive background in Latin and Greek studies. Since 1992 he has been researching his theory on the northern origin of Greek mythology. He lives in Rome.

Praise for The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales

“It is hard to overstate the impact, both scholarly and imaginative, of Vinci’s compellingly argued thesis. . . . Scholars will be rethinking Indo-European studies from the ground up and readers of Homer’s epics will enter fresh realms of delight as they look anew at the world in which Homer’s heroes first breathed and moved.”

Professor William Mullen, department of classics, Bard College

"The Baltic Origins of Homer's Epic Tales is a rare example of a book that turns received notions upside-down."

Joscelyn Godwin, translator of Hypnerotomachia Poliphili

"Powerful, methodical, important, and convincing."

Alfred de Grazia, author of Burning of Troy

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There's a couple of references to the Phaethon myth being known by the Celts.

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 39. 3 ff :

"Bakkhos was wondering still at the confusion of the disordered stars, and Phaethon’s fall, how he slipt down among the Celts into the Western river, firescorched."

http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

Nonnus has the Celts knowing the story well and also that Phaethon actually slipt down among the Celts into the Western River.

I wonder what Western River that would be and how early a story it is and has been kept by the Celts.

If Phaethon fell into the Western River, where? Oceanus...? a river West of Greece or Italy, the Po in Northern Italy where Celts were - or in a location described as the Western River but originally in a West location of where they were.

This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[5] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kaali_crater

Maybe the Neva River, when the Celts lived East of it as Karelia is, if you were in Karelia you would have seen it fall into a Western River.

This is how the book about Homer in the Baltic is - place names have been situated in places that don't make sense. Finnish culture has epics like the myths. They have Saami wind-magicians, seers etc and they all speak a mix, of either Finnic/Uralic or IE languages. This is how I see it further along too - a mix of these 2 types, possibly Uralic speaking priest class leading a different speaking people, Baltic languages.

They might not have even spoken IE until they were closer to Greece, after passing through the steppes. Then you have a language change in Greece in the stories too. The Athenians possibly changed their language, being originally Pelasgian, they would have spoken like the people of Thessaly.

Edited by The Puzzler

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hello puzzler

the easiest solution would be these two scars near the danube in serbia [see them? north east of belgrade?] .

lino.jpg

they are radioactive and all.

crat2.jpg

peace

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If we go with the high percentage of Finns with U5b and then can find a meaning for Mukana in Finnish (Mycenae) and the Finnish have epic hero oral sagas it makes me think more about the travels of these Finns, who had a Saami priestly caste most likely.

Some Sami people had a thunder god called Tiermes, sometimes called Horagalles. Radien or Vearalden was a sky-ruling god. The symbol of the world tree or pillar similar in Finnish mythology that reached up to the North star was marked by a stytto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_mythology

Gotta love Horagalles...

220px-Ancient_Nordic_Sami_people_offering_to_Diermes_or_Thor_by_Picart_1724.jpg

with his bow.

King James Bible

I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.

The thunder God and the sky God, of course. Horagalles even sounds like Heracles, with a g to c change but it's not that old a name - it's Aijeke. (Tiermes was when he thundered)

They have the world tree and pillar that reached up to the North star. Radien or Vearalden is Wralda in the Oera Linda Book.

On that Sami shamanism page you can see a Saami drum with a swastika, so I don't see this symbol as strictly IE, as they are saying. It's the hammers of Aijeke.

So we have a ton of stuff from people who do not seem to have taken on others religion or ways and are very old - in fact, an interesting fact at that, is that Berbers and Saami share a same gene - which could then also account for the same earlier mythology entering Egypt too.

The prehistoric populations of North Africa are related to the wider group of Paleo-Mediterranean peoples. The Afroasiatic phylum probably originated in the mesolithic period, perhaps in the context of the Capsian culture.[20][21] DNA analysis has found commonalities between Berber populations and those of the Sami people of Scandinavia showing a link dating from around 9,000 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people

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Serbia:

I'm not allowed to show this image extension on here apparently but it's a golden mask that's very like the Mask of Agamemnon with some nice Cretan swirls on it.

http://en.daringtodo.com/2010/12/il-magnifico-cratere-e-i-tesori-archeologici-della-serbia-in-mostra-al-quirinale/

Some links would be nice cern, is this a recognised impact crater or anything, Serbia was bombed by NATO and is fairly radioactive all over from what I know.

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Sorry, double post.

Edited by The Puzzler

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I call it comparative mythology but sorry if it's not your thing. That was mild.

I do think it's a genetic-attested homeland.

From what I know there is mtDNA U5a1 found in Grave Circle B (of the few samples they can get)

U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia,[14] Sweden,[15] France [16] and Spain. [17] Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe ~10kya.

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_U_(mtDNA)

You should try to read what you quote. This says that U5 was widespread throughout Europe already in the Mesolithic--thousands of years before the Mycenaeans, thousands of years before the Kaali impact. This tells us nothing about the origins of the Mycenaeans except that they're from Europe. Again, the archaeological evidence, which actually can provide a specific region of origin, points to Ukraine, a long way from the Baltic.

Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal lineages of the Sámi people are the haplogroups V and U5b, ancient in Europe

Four distinct sequences (one matching the CRS, the others belonging to haplogroups U5a1 or U5a1a and UK) have apparently been published (I don't have a copy of the paper). This is a tiny sample, but the results immediately strike me as being consistent with intrusive Northern European origins for the Mycenaean elites tested (which would be in keeping with their skeletal morphology). U5a1 and U5a1a in particular are most often associated with Northern Europe. After I see the actual sequences, I may comment further.

http://racehist.blog...rave-mtdna.html

Maybe this would be a good read for you: Baltic Origin of Homer's Tales.

Yep, Northern Europe--specifically Ukraine.

It's interesting that you're citing a book that was referenced in the comments of that article and quickly dismissed as ludicrous. And there's good reason to dismiss such crazy speculation given the huge wealth of actual evidence. Homer describes cities of Mycenaean Greece which we've found and thoroughly excavated, the names of which we can confirm thanks to Linear B inscriptions. The things he describes, including cultural customs, weapons, and armor, are archaeologically attested in Mycenaean-era finds in Greece, but no where in the Baltic.

There's a couple of references to the Phaethon myth being known by the Celts.

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 39. 3 ff :

"Bakkhos was wondering still at the confusion of the disordered stars, and Phaethon’s fall, how he slipt down among the Celts into the Western river, firescorched."

http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

Nonnus has the Celts knowing the story well and also that Phaethon actually slipt down among the Celts into the Western River.

I wonder what Western River that would be and how early a story it is and has been kept by the Celts.

If Phaethon fell into the Western River, where? Oceanus...? a river West of Greece or Italy, the Po in Northern Italy where Celts were - or in a location described as the Western River but originally in a West location of where they were.

This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[5] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kaali_crater

Maybe the Neva River, when the Celts lived East of it as Karelia is, if you were in Karelia you would have seen it fall into a Western River.

This is how the book about Homer in the Baltic is - place names have been situated in places that don't make sense. Finnish culture has epics like the myths. They have Saami wind-magicians, seers etc and they all speak a mix, of either Finnic/Uralic or IE languages. This is how I see it further along too - a mix of these 2 types, possibly Uralic speaking priest class leading a different speaking people, Baltic languages.

They might not have even spoken IE until they were closer to Greece, after passing through the steppes. Then you have a language change in Greece in the stories too. The Athenians possibly changed their language, being originally Pelasgian, they would have spoken like the people of Thessaly.

Nonnus is writing c. 400 CE. Many Celts in his time would have certainly learned the story by virtue of being under Roman hegemony for centuries. But note that he says "Celts of the west" know it--he's simply saying this as a rhetoric device to locate the story beyond them, in the Atlantic (i.e. the river Okeanos, the western river).

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I call it comparative mythology but sorry if it's not your thing. That was mild.

I do think it's a genetic-attested homeland.

From what I know there is mtDNA U5a1 found in Grave Circle B (of the few samples they can get)

U5 has been found in human remains dating from the Mesolithic in England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Portugal, Russia,[14] Sweden,[15] France [16] and Spain. [17] Haplogroup U5 and its subclades U5a and U5b form the highest population concentrations in the far north, in Sami, Finns, and Estonians, but it is spread widely at lower levels throughout Europe. This distribution, and the age of the haplogroup, indicate individuals from this haplogroup were part of the initial expansion tracking the retreat of ice sheets from Europe ~10kya.

http://en.wikipedia....ogroup_U_(mtDNA)

Recent genetic studies have indicated that the two most frequent maternal lineages of the Sámi people are the haplogroups V and U5b, ancient in Europe

Four distinct sequences (one matching the CRS, the others belonging to haplogroups U5a1 or U5a1a and UK) have apparently been published (I don't have a copy of the paper). This is a tiny sample, but the results immediately strike me as being consistent with intrusive Northern European origins for the Mycenaean elites tested (which would be in keeping with their skeletal morphology). U5a1 and U5a1a in particular are most often associated with Northern Europe. After I see the actual sequences, I may comment further.

http://racehist.blog...rave-mtdna.html

~SNIP~

You might want to rethink that as, from a genetic standpoint, only one of the four samples appear to be U5a1 or U5a1a which are Central European in origin. Two fall under the nomenclature UK which, as written, suggests Haplogroup K and the last one comforms closely with the CRS (which is H2b) but could fall into any of the haplogroups H, HV1, J, U, U3 and U4. None of which are remotely Northern European in origin.

cormac

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You might want to rethink that as, from a genetic standpoint, only one of the four samples appear to be U5a1 or U5a1a which are Central European in origin. Two fall under the nomenclature UK which, as written, suggests Haplogroup K and the last one comforms closely with the CRS (which is H2b) but could fall into any of the haplogroups H, HV1, J, U, U3 and U4. None of which are remotely Northern European in origin.

cormac

Yeah, yeah, yeah....OK.

I got my both maternal and paternal dna tests done, cost me a small fortune and it was basically a given my paternal was R1b but it was a deal for both so I took it up - still waiting for my mtDNA results yet but at least I know I'm definitely R1b, Atlantic Modal type apparently. Which means, my interest in the subject has gone off the scale since the other day when I got the paternal results back.

I started this thread before that, I'm a bit more aware of the situation now so hold onto your hats Cormac, I'll get this haplogroup thing under control if it's the last thing I do. :tu:

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Yeah, yeah, yeah....OK.

I got both my maternal and paternal dna tests done, cost me a small fortune and it was basically a given my paternal was R1b but it was a deal for both so I took it up - still waiting for my mtDNA results yet but at least I know I'm definitely R1b, Atlantic Modal type apparently. Which means, my interest in the subject has gone off the scale since the other day when I got the paternal results back.

I started this thread before that, I'm a bit more aware of the situation now so hold onto your hats Cormac, I'll get this haplogroup thing under control if it's the last thing I do. :tu:

Which means you belong to a sub-group of R1b1a, which is to be expected for northwest Europe. It also means you're a descendant of the parent group R1b1a2-M269/circa 7000 BC that migrated into Europe via Anatolia.

You may get a better handle on the locations of particular haplogroups in Europe (and my hats off to you if you do) but unless someone finds a Mycenaean grave (and preferably several) that belong to one or more definitively northern European haplogroup/s then your speculation about the Mycenaeans originating from there, at least genetically, will remain unfounded.

cormac

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Which means you belong to a sub-group of R1b1a, which is to be expected for northwest Europe. It also means you're a descendant of the parent group R1b1a2-M269/circa 7000 BC that migrated into Europe via Anatolia.

You may get a better handle on the locations of particular haplogroups in Europe (and my hats off to you if you do) but unless someone finds a Mycenaean grave (and preferably several) that belong to one or more definitively northern European haplogroup/s then your speculation about the Mycenaeans originating from there, at least genetically, will remain unfounded.

cormac

I actually started this thread by saying the Mycenaeans were part of the movement of Seima-Turbino people, then digressed - so I'll get back to that for now.

I think it's strange actually that out of all the graves at Mycenae they can't extract a bit of Y-DNA - seems a bit of a conspiracy to me and I'm no conspiracy theorist.

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I actually started this thread by saying the Mycenaeans were part of the movement of Seima-Turbino people, then digressed - so I'll get back to that for now.

I think it's strange actually that out of all the graves at Mycenae they can't extract a bit of Y-DNA - seems a bit of a conspiracy to me and I'm no conspiracy theorist.

Not strange at all really. DNA is poorly preserved at the best of times and many things can account for its level of preservation (or lack thereof) including how bones and teeth were handled and/or treated by early excavators, prior to the use of DNA testing. Geneticists have been rather lucky to get any meaningful DNA samples at all. There's no need to invoke a conspiracy.

cormac

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Which means you belong to a sub-group of R1b1a, which is to be expected for northwest Europe. It also means you're a descendant of the parent group R1b1a2-M269/circa 7000 BC that migrated into Europe via Anatolia.

.

cormac

Ok, thanks.

Haplogroup R1b1a2-M269 is observed most frequently in Europe, especially western Europe, but with notable frequency in southwest Asia. R1b1a2-M269 is estimated to have arisen approximately 4,000 to 8,000 years ago in southwest Asia and to have spread into Europe from there. The Atlantic Modal Haplotype, or AMH, is the most common STR haplotype in haplogroup R1b1a2a1a1-L11/S127 and most European R1b1a2 belongs to haplogroups R1b1a2a1a1a-S21/U106 or R1b1a2a1a1b-P312/S116.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

Do you agree the latest it could have come in is 2000BC? (Since they give the lowest age at 4000 years ago).

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Not strange at all really. DNA is poorly preserved at the best of times and many things can account for its level of preservation (or lack thereof) including how bones and teeth were handled and/or treated by early excavators, prior to the use of DNA testing. Geneticists have been rather lucky to get any meaningful DNA samples at all. There's no need to invoke a conspiracy.

cormac

I suppose but I hope they can sooner than later, to me, it would be very interesting.

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