The disappearance of Ray Gricar

[SuperSmith]

Excellent point, 2-B. Why bother to take the laptop at all if the goal is to damage the hard drive? Surely it didn't take a trip to Lewisburg to figure out how to remove the hard drive.

JMO

and furthermore if the intent was to walk-away then why leave it in an obvious place to find. Why not dump it in the local Walmarts dumpster? and if the intent was suicide then why destroy the laptop and hard drive at all? Your dead so what's it matter?

[2-B]

2-B, did I ever tell you that Ivy Butterworth owned a 1990 Lincoln Town car? Can't remember if we discussed that. It of course was available in silver or gold. In 2009 her son was arrested for stealing it and among other things a laptop and jewelry. Just a tidbit

Thanks for the tidbit. Nope, didn't know that. A Lincoln Town car is a lot bigger than a Honda, isn't it? Or are you thinking of the Spidey sighting? Was that a town car? I'm so wishing I'd been able to archive stuff.

[SuperSmith]

Thanks for the tidbit. Nope, didn't know that. A Lincoln Town car is a lot bigger than a Honda, isn't it? Or are you thinking of the Spidey sighting? Was that a town car? I'm so wishing I'd been able to archive stuff.

Yes you are right it is bigger but with all do respect I'm not too confident in the whole Honda thing since she couldn't even get the exact color. Butterworths son was stealing to support his heroin addiction.

[2-B]

Excellent point, 2-B. Why bother to take the laptop at all if the goal is to damage the hard drive? Surely it didn't take a trip to Lewisburg to figure out how to remove the hard drive.

JMO

It has never made sense to me, especially in the context of trying to hide things from someone or someone(s). The computer links to Ray and the courthouse. The drive alone would not unless files were recovered. (We STILL have no proof it's THE hard drive!) if he wanted to bury stuff, why dump the "dot" that connects to him, the computer itself???

[2-B]

Yes you are right it is bigger but with all do respect I'm not too confident in the whole Honda thing since she couldn't even get the exact color. Butterworths son was stealing to support his heroin addiction.

"She" being CF or Spidey? I'm confused!

[SuperSmith]

It has never made sense to me, especially in the context of trying to hide things from someone or someone(s). The computer links to Ray and the courthouse. The drive alone would not unless files were recovered. (We STILL have no proof it's THE hard drive!) if he wanted to bury stuff, why dump the "dot" that connects to him, the computer itself???

He wouldn't. He was way too intelligent. If he planned to disappear he wouldn't have made such a big mistake in dumping the laptop and hard drive near his car. A stage was set but it wasn't to benefit any plans Ray had of skipping town.

[SuperSmith]

"She" being CF or Spidey? I'm confused!

CF

[2-B]

CF

Thanks. Yeah. I don't fault her on color confusion w/ beige/silver cars. But I think she was pretty specific that at first she thought it was Patty's Honda, or something to that effect, so I was thinking overall size and shape were either Honda or Honda-like.

Edited September 19, 2013 by 2-B

[Regi]

Hi Regi,

First I want to say thanks for joining our discussion w/ some thoughtful posts. Nice to see others are concerned about keeping Ray's story alive until truth about what happened to him is fully known. Sounds as if you've followed the story despite its present cold case status, and that's certainly appreciated.

Hi, and thank you. It's my pleasure.

I recall this case from probably when it was first aired on one of those crime mystery programs, but I haven't heard or read anything about it until this thread was started.

Wondering if you remember KA's now-iconic story about Ray making everyone in the office stop what they were doing until a dust cover for some piece of office equipment was located. That always struck me as telling--so counter to someone dumping county property (both hard drive AND computer) into the Susquehanna.

I skimmed through that site and I read enough to decide that it was a waste of my time.

Gricar was already wanting to destroy the hard drive, so there's no reason to think he would have cared about the rest of it.

He disposed of them separately for the same reason anyone else would have; to assure that the hard drive would be destroyed.

IOW, why destroy the entire county-owned computer to "erase" a hard drive?

I don't think he'd care a Fig Newton about that laptop!

Erasing wasn't good enough. I think there was something on the hard drive that would have reflected poorly on him, or possibly reflect poorly on someone else.

Edited September 19, 2013 by regi

[Regi]

Surely it didn't take a trip to Lewisburg to figure out how to remove the hard drive.

I think he went there because of the familiarity.

[SuperSmith]

regi, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Karen Arnold's account on her google page. I certainly don't believe it to be a waste of your time. If nothing else it provides vital and in depth accounts from a coworker who worked with Ray almost 20 years. Much more reliable than your average news report or crime show. In my opinion of course.

[Saunterer]

regi, lol ... the gang's almost all here.

[Saunterer]

Reunited:

[Regi]

regi, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Karen Arnold's account on her google page. I certainly don't believe it to be a waste of your time. If nothing else it provides vital and in depth accounts from a coworker who worked with Ray almost 20 years.

I'm not aware of any vital info. I've missed out on.

[Saunterer]

I'm not aware of any vital info. I've missed out on.

You have missed a lot!! But please tell us where you got the information that Ray Gricar, in that last call to his girlfriend, conveyed the notion that he would not be returning. I must have missed that along the way.

[Saunterer]

<Snip>

According to the girlfriend, there was nothing alarming in his behavior, including their last contact when he called and told her he wouldn't be coming back. At that time, he was headed toward the location where his vehicle was found the following day, and there's no confirmed contact with anyone else beyond that 11:30 am phone call.

Maybe you could enlighten all of us as to where you got this "new" information!?

[Star1110shine]

NEWS FLASH ALERT

http://www.altoonami...ed.html?nav=742

Police probe claim Gricar killed

Source: Remains of DA, four others buried in shaft

September 20, 2013

Investigators, including the FBI, are looking into a claim that missing former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar was murdered by a former Hells Angel, according to Bellefonte police.

"It's ongoing," Bellefonte police Detective Matthew Rickard said Thursday of the investigation into the claim.

Very interesting the man was a informant. Wonder if this is it? Thoughts?

Edited September 20, 2013 by Star1110shine

[SuperSmith]

NEWS FLASH ALERT

http://www.altoonami...ed.html?nav=742

Police probe claim Gricar killed

Source: Remains of DA, four others buried in shaft

September 20, 2013

Investigators, including the FBI, are looking into a claim that missing former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar was murdered by a former Hells Angel, according to Bellefonte police.

"It's ongoing," Bellefonte police Detective Matthew Rickard said Thursday of the investigation into the claim.

Very interesting the man was a informant. Wonder if this is it? Thoughts?

Thanks Star, certaintly woke me up bright eyed this morning. This certainly seems to be a viable scenario but I still have questions. I have to disagree with Tony though in that the FBI thing the source spoke of as being a red flag. The FBI probably was involved on a limited basis in the beginning however if a claim comes forward that involves a supposed "FBI Informant" I am sure that catches the attention of the Bureau hence the more involvement now.

[Regi]

Thoughts?

People can say anything.

[SuperSmith]

Maybe you could enlighten all of us as to where you got this "new" information!?

S1, can you find the Court case from back in the late 90's in Centre County that is referenced in Stars linked story?

[2-B]

[respectfully snipped]

I skimmed through that site and I read enough to decide that it was a waste of my time.

Like SS, I'd suggest the value to that site lies in some of the observations made by a co-worker of nearly 20 years who was also 2nd in line that weekend, thus on scene to offer a number of recollections we wouldn't otherwise have. Opinions not gospel, clearly, but I'm glad to have OTR things like what police said about where the phone call pinged (countering a false narrative that's been pushed), when the dogs arrived, that DZ told office staff t o look for laptop in office, etc. Also grateful for some of the anecdotes demonstrating Gricar's compassionate nature and dedication to his job.

I take all these things the same way I do much I learned from interacting with TG, as a chance for personal insight into Gricar from someone who knew him.

That said, the dust cover story is emblematic of what we've learned from MANY sources: Ray was meticulous and respectful and unlikely to dump county property in a river to achieve ERASING a hard drive.

Gricar was already wanting to destroy the hard drive, so there's no reason to think he would have cared about the rest of it.

He disposed of them separately for the same reason anyone else would have; to assure that the hard drive would be destroyed.

I don't think we know that. We know

1. He wanted to ERASE his hard drive before returning it to the county, and got software to do so.

2. Someone used his desktop to search things like "water damage to a notebook computer," but no forensic computer tech could ever demonstrate it was Ray who did so.

3. Water is never a recommended method of eliminating data on a hard drive; only physical destruction of the drive or magnets will do that. Was the allegedly brilliant RG so silly as to ignore every geek site on the web? I reject that idea.

[2-B]

NEWS FLASH ALERT

http://www.altoonami...ed.html?nav=742

Police probe claim Gricar killed

Source: Remains of DA, four others buried in shaft

September 20, 2013

Investigators, including the FBI, are looking into a claim that missing former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar was murdered by a former Hells Angel, according to Bellefonte police.

"It's ongoing," Bellefonte police Detective Matthew Rickard said Thursday of the investigation into the claim.

Very interesting the man was a informant. Wonder if this is it? Thoughts?

Glad to see you feeling better, and thanks for posting this, Star.

Since first reading it this morning, I have mixed feelings. Like Tony, I'm cautious because we've been on so many wild goose chases over the years (and I'm sure the family has been on more). But I also agree the level of detail in this one is at least intriguing enough that I want to see how it plays out.

I'm seeing the theory being downplayed elsewhere on the basis that it would be difficult for Hells Angels to follow Ray around Lewisburg for 4-5 hours, and that IMO is not logical, since no objective evidence places RG in Lewisburg in the first place.

We all remember the rumored sighting of a "construction worker type" leaning into the Mini. Was that Baron-derived? Just thinking, however irrationally, that a construction worker type and a Hells's Angel type might not be that widely divided, depending.

Edited September 20, 2013 by 2-B

[Star1110shine]

Thanks2B! I'm curious where the property is. The ex FBI informant is still alive living out of state. This has me wondering about Rays laptop and hard drive, that part doesn't fit? What fits for me is the large amount of dirt buried deep. The informant part also fits for me. I recon the Sandusky part must of aggravated the man that came forward. If this is it I'm sure there is much more involved than what they can say for now.

[Regi]

That said, the dust cover story is emblematic of what we've learned from MANY sources: Ray was meticulous and respectful and unlikely to dump county property in a river to achieve ERASING a hard drive.

I don't think we know that. We know

1. He wanted to ERASE his hard drive before returning it to the county, and got software to do so.

2. Someone used his desktop to search things like "water damage to a notebook computer," but no forensic computer tech could ever demonstrate it was Ray who did so.

3. Water is never a recommended method of eliminating data on a hard drive; only physical destruction of the drive or magnets will do that. Was the allegedly brilliant RG so silly as to ignore every geek site on the web? I reject that idea.

I have no reason to think that anyone but Gricar made those computer searches, and I thinkthe searches and the timing of the searches are what's important.

[2-B]

I have no reason to think that anyone but Gricar made those computer searches, and I thinkthe searches and the timing of the searches are what's important.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is a linguistic analysis of the search terms. My opinion only, or in the lingo of our old board, MOO. :-)