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SuperSmith

The disappearance of Ray Gricar

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on the recently found York remains

http://www.pennlive....man_remain.html

and this one states he could be 60 yrs of age - with a partial denture

http://www.abc27.com...-for-3-10-years

did RG have a partial plate?

NAMUS on RG just says Dental information/charting is available

He adds that the only defining characteristic to the skeleton is that the man was wearing some kind of dental appliance, possibly a partial denture.

This is pretty vaguely described--probably deliberately so. But seems to me it could mean anything from a partial plate to a removable bridge to a temporary veneer. Not saying this is Gricar or that we know anything about his dental records, but I'm guessing neither York LE or BPD are going to feed us any helpful details.

The height thing would place him within range--those figures are best educated guesses based on bone lengths.

The time range would fit.

Age range seems off, but I know little of how forensic anthropologists determine age range. Anyone know how much wiggle room there is with age determined from up to decade-old bones?

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Likely an adult: Preliminary examination of the bones suggests they belonged to an adult, Stabley said.

Also found was one piece of unisex-type clothing, he said.

http://www.yorkdispatch.com/breaking/ci_24556324/more-bones-found-at-west-manchester-site-where

I know I'm reaching for the sake of conjecture, but the York location interests me given Luna's demise, Luna chasing down sex crimes, etc. Open to all tomatoes thrown my way, of course.

Edited by 2-B
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great discussion today!

so what way does the financial information point? towards him having hid money or towards foul play since nothing was out of the ordinary?

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great discussion today!

so what way does the financial information point? towards him having hid money or towards foul play since nothing was out of the ordinary?

In my opinion JJ is using the financials yet again to try and catapult a need for a forensic audit of Gricar's finances (now Lara's). I have argued that LE cannot order or conduct a "forensic" audit of Ray's or Lara's finances unless there is suspected fraud or otherwise missing County money or accused payoffs. Of course we know that the County did look into that aspect at one time but found nothing out of the ordinary or missing money since Ray didn't handle any money. It is an invasion of privacy for LE to do an audit of someone's finances where nothing has been reported out of the ordinary. "Thinking" RG should have had more cash or assets is not probable cause to turn someone's life upside down, in this case Lara, just to satisfy the curious.

Now that being said I DO BELIEVE law enforcement SHOULD conduct a forensic audit of Jonathan Luna's finances. Of course he didn't walk away however he has been accused and his good name drug through the mud that perhaps he stole some 30k held in lock up. Do I think he did that? Nope but it would put to rest that nonsense of a story/angle which is WHY I surmise a forensic audit will NEVER be done. You with me on that 2-B?

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I know I'm reaching for the sake of conjecture, but the York location interests me given Luna's demise, Luna chasing down sex crimes, etc. Open to all tomatoes thrown my way, of course.

Of course through Keisling we know TC had some dealings in York as well. I can't connect TC and Luna however

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Saunterer, I do believe that only one page was received because A. LG filed a petition to keep the rest private & B. most likely she did that to keep her personal information from the public record such as her home address and the dollar figure of her inheritance. Not is not unusual to me.

SS: I understand why the county filing would not be complete...although actually, there appears to be more information filed there than was necessary under the court's order in July 2011.

BHB: Since only two posters over yonder have the information, it cannot be known yet if it is of any significance...beyond LE's previous assertions that there is no missing money in regard to RG's finances.

For all: Form REV-1500 can be found here:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/inheritance_tax/14695

If page/side one of the form filed with Centre County is a duplicate of the form filed with the state, applicable ovals (and number of lock boxes) should be filled in, from amongst the following:

1. Original Return

2. Supplemental Return

3. Remainder Return (Date of Death Prior to 12-13-82)

4. Limited Estate

4a. Future Interest Compromise (date of death after 12-12-82)

5. Federal Estate Tax Return Required

6. Decedent Died Testate (Attach Copy of Will)

7. Decedent Maintained a Living Trust (Attach Copy of Trust.)

8. Total Number of Safe Deposit Boxes

9. Litigation Proceeds Received

10. Spousal Poverty Credit (Date of Death Between 12-31-91 and 1-1-95)

11. Election to Tax under Sec. 9113(A)(Attach Schedule O)

Edited by Saunterer
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He adds that the only defining characteristic to the skeleton is that the man was wearing some kind of dental appliance, possibly a partial denture.

This is pretty vaguely described--probably deliberately so. But seems to me it could mean anything from a partial plate to a removable bridge to a temporary veneer. Not saying this is Gricar or that we know anything about his dental records, but I'm guessing neither York LE or BPD are going to feed us any helpful details.

The height thing would place him within range--those figures are best educated guesses based on bone lengths.

The time range would fit.

Age range seems off, but I know little of how forensic anthropologists determine age range. Anyone know how much wiggle room there is with age determined from up to decade-old bones?

I have no idea how these anthros come up with their figure. Probably some formula but it is vague to say the least.

Having dentures however in my opinion kicks you up to the above 30 year old range in the vast majority. How he got the cutoff at 50 years old I have no idea.

Skeleton said to have been there 3-10 years......pretty vague again.

5'5"-6'0" in height is also pretty vague.

I will note that a route from Lewisburg would use RT15 to get to York.

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"Bloss said police had already crossed checked York County records missing persons reports and had not found a match to the remains. The check covered a five-year span. Bloss said officials are not ruling out the possibility that the person came from outside York County.

Bloss said he could not report on injuries, trauma or gun shot wounds, “not that there isn’t any to report,” but because the investigation is ongoing.

Not so smart doing a check in York County for missing persons to match up with the remains by only going back 5 years when you claim that the remains had been in that location 3-10 years.

The sentence I bolded tells me there are injuries to the skeleton.

As always JMO

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2013/11/york_county_skull_human_remain.html

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Saunterer, page 3 of the Rev-1500 asks a series of questions that I would presume Lara may have answered "Yes" to several. That would require her to file a "Schedule G". Was there any mention of that over yonder. I don't remember.

Are you familiar with "Reversionary interests"?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/673

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Age range seems off, but I know little of how forensic anthropologists determine age range. Anyone know how much wiggle room there is with age determined from up to decade-old bones?

If you're snowed in, iced in, a science geek, or otherwise bored, you might want to skim through this on age at death estimation from bones.

http://www.academia.edu/1566898/Developments_in_forensic_anthropology_Age-at-death_estimation

Some specifics on what forensic anthropologists are doing to make that estimation, but I think the bottom line for our purposes is in the opening paragraphs. As one would logically assume, biological and chronological age can be at odds (I am sure, for instance, that both genetics and what I have put them through make my bones biologically in the neighborhood of 145). So, estimating chronological age at time of death is, in layman's terms, somewhat of a crapshoot (in scientific terms, expressed as a range with an error rate).

If these remains were thought to be 30-50 years at time of death, I don't know for sure that 9 years give or take is statistically significant in that time of life. It would be different IMO if we were talking about a time of life when growth plates would or wouldn't have closed, for instance. But this is just all spitballing.

Edited by 2-B
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In my opinion JJ is using the financials yet again to try and catapult a need for a forensic audit of Gricar's finances (now Lara's). I have argued that LE cannot order or conduct a "forensic" audit of Ray's or Lara's finances unless there is suspected fraud or otherwise missing County money or accused payoffs. Of course we know that the County did look into that aspect at one time but found nothing out of the ordinary or missing money since Ray didn't handle any money. It is an invasion of privacy for LE to do an audit of someone's finances where nothing has been reported out of the ordinary. "Thinking" RG should have had more cash or assets is not probable cause to turn someone's life upside down, in this case Lara, just to satisfy the curious.

Now that being said I DO BELIEVE law enforcement SHOULD conduct a forensic audit of Jonathan Luna's finances. Of course he didn't walk away however he has been accused and his good name drug through the mud that perhaps he stole some 30k held in lock up. Do I think he did that? Nope but it would put to rest that nonsense of a story/angle which is WHY I surmise a forensic audit will NEVER be done. You with me on that 2-B?

Absolutely with you, SS, on all points.

I just want to add a little thing that annoys the heck out of me every time JJ quotes the Lohr article allegedly quoting Tony. JJ ALWAYS manages to get into print one more time for mass consumption Tony supposedly saying that from a forensic accounting standpoint, there's not enough money in RG's accounts.

Couple things. I remember the ensuing dust up that broke out between JJ and TG following comments JJ made about that line when TG attempted to publicly put into context what occurred during the "making" of the Lohr patch-piece on Ray's disappearance. The result was JJ eventually trying to claim that it was a FAKE Tony responding to him on his blog, which was pretty danged laughable all things considered.

Equally important, whenever JJ raises this alleged quote now re forensic accounting, he does to it what he always does to Sloane's Missed Leads observations (and other Sloane quotes) about Gricar walkaway: he conveniently truncates the quote.

From whatever TG said to Lohr re forensic accounting (and "there is the thought" does NOT mean to me that Tony necessarily thinks this) JJ has dropped a whole line from TG about Ray being from a generation that preferred to pay for things with cash and given that, what was the appropriate amount of money to be sitting in his accounts, or something to that effect. Heck, we know he paid cash for the Mini (something even JJ was eager to argue in 2006) and we know from Mrs. PC's research that he paid off about $66,000 on PF's mortgage (IIRC), likely his contribution to living there. That's pushing $100,000 outlay just for those items in the years prior to going missing.

As for Luna, I would like to see that man's reputation reclaimed every bit as much as a few others who have been unfairly destroyed. His wife deserves to hold her head up high.

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This one says 30-40 grrrrrr I can't stand inaccurate reporting.

http://www.abc27.com/story/24066063/skeleton-near-pa-mall-maybe-a-foul-play-victim

Or--the media are getting conflicting stories from authorities. Or both. Happened all the time w/ Gricar. Now I've been catching up w/ McStay and Jamison. In Jamison 4 years later reports still conflict when family was last seen, last heard from!

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Saunterer, page 3 of the Rev-1500 asks a series of questions that I would presume Lara may have answered "Yes" to several. That would require her to file a "Schedule G". Was there any mention of that over yonder. I don't remember.

Are you familiar with "Reversionary interests"?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/673

I'm glad you and Saunterer are willing to cover the financial forms. {{{Shudder.}}} Those things give me headaches. I'll do the scientific reports for you. :-)

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I know I'm reaching for the sake of conjecture, but the York location interests me given Luna's demise, Luna chasing down sex crimes, etc. Open to all tomatoes thrown my way, of course.

Guess who only lived 10 minutes away from the the remains recently found in York?

http://www.yorkdispa...com/ci_15134327

https://maps.google....ved=0CCkQ8gEwAA

http://www.democrati...dress=175x19420

http://newslanc.com/...phile-sex-ring/ Interesting two comments

http://www.yardbird.com/midnight_ride_ephrata_PAtrooper_suicide.htm

Edited by SuperSmith

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Well lookee, lookee.

I know I approach some things with an occasional bias, but I do wish I'd been able to save the Luna Redux thread from CL before things went lights out. We had good information about the sex crimes Luna was pursuing and Lots of Dots, so to speak, that just begged for full connection.

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Well lookee, lookee.

I know I approach some things with an occasional bias, but I do wish I'd been able to save the Luna Redux thread from CL before things went lights out. We had good information about the sex crimes Luna was pursuing and Lots of Dots, so to speak, that just begged for full connection.

2-B, I edited that post to add 3 additional links. Go back and check it out.

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Saunterer, page 3 of the Rev-1500 asks a series of questions that I would presume Lara may have answered "Yes" to several. That would require her to file a "Schedule G". Was there any mention of that over yonder. I don't remember.

Are you familiar with "Reversionary interests"?

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/673

No side/page 2 or 3, or mention of Schedule G over yonder...and no, I have no legal (as in lawyerly) familiarity with reversionary interests.
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This tablet is infuriating. I was just finishing a relatively long post when it slipped in my hand and sent the whole post to cyber death. Trying again.

The last few Tuesdays I've been watching a new series on Discover ID called "a Crime To Remember." It's a fairly upscale production focused on crimes from the '50's and '60's. Last night's installment was the case of a Florida judge, Chillingworth, and his wife Majorie, who disappeared in 1955 from their beach bungalow and who were declared dead years later.

Like Ray Gricar, Chillingworth was a man of justice and integrity, and he did not mince words with those he sentenced. Early investigation focused on the possibility of retribution from the criminal element (although "sightings" stirred rumors the Chillingworths might be alive).

Without giving too much away, I'll say the parallels between the judicial characters of Chillingworth and Gricar were striking. I'll also say the key to solving the case had existed unnoticed for years on Chillingworth's calendar for the day following the night he and Marjorie disappeared, ultimately revealing the true killers. How this all unraveled has, at least for today, tipped me back to thinking about close court house connections in the Gricar case.

The ending voice over gave me chills. Definitely worth watching if ID re-runs this or if it's on On Demand.

A couple links, the first especially detailed and good IMO:

http://www.historicpalmbeach.com/tag/chillingworth-murders/

http://www.crimeandinvestigation.co.uk/crime-files/judge-joe-peel-and-the-chillingworth-murders/crime.html

Edited by 2-B
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And especially for anyone, say anyone Over Yonder clinging to "lead detective" DZ's ramblings to James Renner in the fall of 2005 as some kind of "evidence" that the Lewisburg witness sightings equal RG being in Lewisburg, I offer this similar "evidence" that the Chillingworths were alive because a witness "saw" them:

2hdbjbp.jpg

Edited by 2-B
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I must say that the location of the remains found in York, for lack of a better term, was a ballsy place to dump them. The York Daily Newpaper is a stone throw away with numerous retail places as well as heavily traveled roads connecting.

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Looking at mapping there is a trucking company behind the mall area and the York paper off of Stanley Drive. I have been unable to identify the company but it is close to the site where the remains were found. Between the two properties is a pond as well.

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Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on the Ray Gricar forum.

Perhaps by next year we will be giving thanks that Ray's disappearance has been resolved.

Edited by simplybill
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Happy Thanksgiving to everyone on the Ray Gricar forum.

Perhaps by next year we will be giving thanks that Ray's disappearance has been resolved.

I hope everyone is feeling fat and full today and blessed by presence of family and friends.

Those of us keenly aware this year of an empty seat at the table can only guess at best what it must be like to be Lara or Tony or his brothers facing the 9th holiday season with an empty chair and no explanation whatsoever for that absence.

I personally don't expect that Ray will turn up between now and next Thanksgiving alive and healthy on some tropical island with a Grey Goose martini in his hand (or even hidden away in Slovenia by distant relatives).

But I hope your vision comes true, Bill, and that what happened to Ray will be known in this coming year.

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A brief Open Message to SJ Over Yonder:

Shame on you! You claim to care about Ray Gricar. Yet in the same breath, you write a series of posts chastising two contributors who have done more to seek the truth about what happened to Ray Gricar than you could ever begin to understand. Preserving some status quo of posting is without value when it plays favorites, disallows challenges to inaccuracies and to outright lies, and in general leads the public readership down a garden path (or rabbit hole) from which they cannot return.

That is, of course, unless other voices are freely allowed to counter with the truth, or at the very least with questions that might lead readers to question the party line.

Readers deserve access to the entire set of facts, not the cherry-picked and carefully designed tales you have been shaped by. Hundreds and hundreds of these instances have been fed to you, little by little, post by post, and you are not even aware that it has happened. How clear that is just in your tiny attack asking how these two alleged trouble-makers would feel if their witness accounts and credibility were questioned after reporting a sighting. It's oh so clear that you know little to nothing about this science, oh so clear you're unaware Blogger Boy had ample opportunity to learn from the world's leading expert on this, and oh so clear you're unaware he rejected some 40 years of expert science for his own best "guesses." My blood boils when I see him say things like his recent claim that Gricar holding a laptop in Lewisburg was CONFIRMED in a blog.

Balderdash. And only one tiny item on a huge plate of lies you've been fed.

But you go ahead and call for an atmosphere where no one questions things, where everyone drinks the Kool-Aid and smiles. I'm sure that will help Ray Gricar and those who care about him. /sarcasm font off.

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