The disappearance of Ray Gricar

[Bay Harbor Butcher]

welcome aboard lpshred,

I went back and forth for a long time with this case. The Hells Angel's stuff was the first time I really took walkaway almost completely off the table. The evidence definitely can keep you going back and forth between any of the possibilities. Suicide is tough because why would he jump from a short distance and drown? there have to be more pleasant ways to die than that. Walkaway, you could have some kind of family threat that made him leave but wouldn't there have been a case or something leaving behind a possibly theory of why? Bob Buehner seems like the most logical voice in all of this and he has been on murder from the get-go. The revenge factor is the most logical reason why Ray is gone. IMO

[lpshred]

welcome aboard lpshred,

I went back and forth for a long time with this case. The Hells Angel's stuff was the first time I really took walkaway almost completely off the table. The evidence definitely can keep you going back and forth between any of the possibilities. Suicide is tough because why would he jump from a short distance and drown? there have to be more pleasant ways to die than that. Walkaway, you could have some kind of family threat that made him leave but wouldn't there have been a case or something leaving behind a possibly theory of why? Bob Buehner seems like the most logical voice in all of this and he has been on murder from the get-go. The revenge factor is the most logical reason why Ray is gone. IMO

Thanks for the kind words SS 2B and BHB. I have no experience with true crime, but in fiction, these situations give me the most trouble. We assume that everything is rationally planned and perfectly executed. However, reality is never that simple. As I said to my mother in law, if this case was straightforward, they would have solved it by now.

As someone who put people in jail for 20 years, RG had plenty of enemies. Someone one would have to either be dumb enough or powerful enough to threaten him. Since I don't think someone stupid enough to threaten a sitting DA would be able to lure RG to a secret meeting, I'm going with powerful. Or maybe someone powerful recruited someone stupid. Just fishing here.

So I believe RG was murdered in order to either cover up some wrongdoing he had discovered or that he posed a threat to the LE power structure. One of the things that I find so sinister about Gov. TC's posse is that they control/controlled the AD and AG offices. So even if someone were caught, they'd never be prosecuted. See example Sandusky, Jerry.

Edited December 18, 2013 by lpshred

[SuperSmith]

Thanks for the kind words SS 2B and BHB. I have no experience with true crime, but in fiction, these situations give me the most trouble. We assume that everything is rationally planned and perfectly executed. However, reality is never that simple. As I said to my mother in law, if this case was straightforward, they would have solved it by now.

As someone who put people in jail for 20 years, RG had plenty of enemies. Someone one would have to either be dumb enough or powerful enough to threaten him. Since I don't think someone stupid enough to threaten a sitting DA would be able to lure RG to a secret meeting, I'm going with powerful. Or maybe someone powerful recruited someone stupid. Just fishing here.

So I believe RG was murdered in order to either cover up some wrongdoing he had discovered or that he posed a threat to the LE power structure. One of the things that I find so sinister about Gov. TC's posse is that they control/controlled the AD and AG offices. So even if someone were caught, they'd never be prosecuted. See example Sandusky, Jerry.

What really bends my noodle is the eerily similar circumstances that surround Ray's brother (Roy) disappearance and then ruled suicide. Connection? There is enough there in my opinion to make a link.

[Saunterer]

I love seeing 23 users on this topic right now. Don't be shy readers. Jump in here, give your opinion, and help us solve Ray Gricar's case! The smallest thought could be one that takes us in the right direction.

I think that is probably an indication of the WS readership looking for their daily Gricar fix...or maybe even the total number of people who follow this case, even if they are not regular posters.

[lpshred]

What really bends my noodle is the eerily similar circumstances that surround Ray's brother (Roy) disappearance and then ruled suicide. Connection? There is enough there in my opinion to make a link.

I always thought the connection to Roy was a Red Herring to direct attention to suicide, staged much like the rest of the scene in Lewisburg. There's definitely a connection in that this was staged to send a message. That said, I've never considered that the same Bad Thing that killed Roy is the same thing that got RG killed.

This gets me thinking, is there any indication of RG looking into Roy's death? Not only is it motive for murder, but also for secretly meeting someone in Lewisburg. Could have been a setup by the person RGwas meeting, or the person RGwas meeting was followed. Maybe the killer didn't know it was RG until after the fact. I need to stop speculating now.

[Saunterer]

SS, in regard to your post #1525:

As 2-B pointed out (#1502), "It's the "Independents," so to speak, whom JJ wants to reach now--one of the reasons for his move to Over Yonder some time back, where true debate and refutation are discouraged and, as we've seen, even punished with Time Out in the corner and threat of banning."

Not sure there are more than two dozen souls who care enough about Gricar's disappearance to follow the online discussion. But I sympathize with readers/posters on any Gricar forum in 2013 who were not around in 2005/2006. In large part by necessity, many of them rely on someone to tell them what is "real". When others try to tell them differently, the natural knee-jerk reaction is to be offended.

We are apparently viewed as invaders into their "happy home" over yonder, even though all we want is for readers everywhere to discern fact from fiction. And they do come here (since the Crime Library forum folded) because, deep down, most of them want to know what others think. JMOO

Edited December 18, 2013 by Saunterer

[SuperSmith]

I always thought the connection to Roy was a Red Herring to direct attention to suicide, staged much like the rest of the scene in Lewisburg. There's definitely a connection in that this was staged to send a message. That said, I've never considered that the same Bad Thing ™ that killed Roy is the same thing that got RG killed.

This gets me thinking, is there any indication of RG looking into Roy's death? Not only is it motive for murder, but also for secretly meeting someone in Lewisburg. Could have been a setup by the person RGwas meeting, or the person RGwas meeting was followed. Maybe the killer didn't know it was RG until after the fact. I need to stop speculating now.

It is documented that Ray NEVER BELIEVED his brother committed suicide. Tony Gricar (Roy's son and family spokesperson for Ray) thought it to be cut/dry as his father battled depression for a long time. Fair enough but then Tony goes on to say in an interview that his father had a GREAT fear of water and if there was on thing that was odd it was that. Tony used the example that if you fear fire then you are not going to commit suicide by lighting yourself on fire. That has bothered me to no end because he is absolutely right. If you have a terrible fear of water you are not going to drown yourself.

So I have theorized as others have that in someway Roy & Ray's incidents are connected. We've made some connections through Wright Patterson Air Force base where Roy worked. We've wondered if Roy's death was a warning to Ray. We've wondered if the reason Ray was distraught leading up to his disappearance was because he found out something new in his brothers death.

So little of a trail to follow though.

Edited December 18, 2013 by SuperSmith

[SuperSmith]

SS, in regard to your post #1525:

As 2-B pointed out (#1502), "It's the "Independents," so to speak, whom JJ wants to reach now--one of the reasons for his move to Over Yonder some time back, where true debate and refutation are discouraged and, as we've seen, even punished with Time Out in the corner and threat of banning."

Not sure there are more than two dozen souls who care enough about Gricar's disappearance to follow the online discussion. But I sympathize with readers/posters on any Gricar forum in 2013 who were not around in 2005/2006. In large part by necessity, many of them rely on someone to tell them what is "real". When others try to tell them differently, the natural knee-jerk reaction is to be offended.

We are apparently viewed as invaders into their "happy home" over yonder, even though all we want is for readers everywhere to discern fact from fiction. And they do come here (since the Crime Library forum folded) because, deep down, most of them want to know what others think. JMOO

I suppose some over there are about making friends and nothing else. I thought it would be welcomed for us to discuss alternatives to the case. I have been accused of bumping egos over there when in reality I am only trying to take their blind fold off so they may see they are being misled. Can't say I didn't try and if I am banned I am banned.

I hope MissJ will join us over here for discussion at some point.

[Bay Harbor Butcher]

I concur with real life doesn't always play out the way we think it does. Not every clue or possible clue is supposed to lead us somewhere. However, we have no other choice but to try to put the pieces of a puzzle together even if they really shouldn't be in the box lol.

I don't think Ray was meeting someone there for anything work related, as BB has said in the past, that's what the police do and it would make the attorney a witness.

He may have been followed for a while by someone or some group.

as for his brother, depression is a tough thing to deal with and unless you suffer from it it's real easy to say that why would someone commit suicide by drowning if they are afraid of water. Sometimes the mind just isn't working right and maybe on that day he felt that was the easiest way to do it, who knows.

[Saunterer]

For foul-play enthusiasts, there is (seemingly) no end to the possibilities, of which the Hell's Angels and Jerry Sandusky revelations are the most recent.

There was the highly emotional shaken-baby case, where Gricar filed his intention to seek the death penalty. The mother went online in defense of her husband and amassed not only "friendly" professional reviews from doctors and attorneys, but hundreds of signers (including some who were belligerent in their comments) in her "Free Mendez" campaign. The mother allegedly threatened the man's local attorney, creating an incident report to the DA's office and local police, and causing the defense attorney to remove himself from the case.

Gricar said he would prosecute the case if came to trial within his term. The trial date was the subject of discussion in judge's chambers in March 2005 (previously reported, where Gicar seemed to be uncharacteristically aloof).

ADA LM was second chair in the case. After Gricar's disappearance, LM essentially folded, saying he was never on board with the death penalty, and pleaded Mendez out. Later LM was accused in another case of offering legal favors to the girlfriend of a defendant in return for sex. There were also others who accused LM of sexual improprieties. LM was fired by the then DA, MM. But to date, no other action has been taken against him.

The (still) unanswered question raised at the time: Did LM let it be known that, but for Ray Gricar, the death penalty would go away (as it did under LM's watch)? This still bothers me today. But you will not find it being discussed anywhere else...because, obviously, Ray Gricar just walked away from his life...his family and other loved ones; his friends; his career; his sense of honesty and duty; his pension,.........

Edited December 18, 2013 by Saunterer

[Saunterer]

Then there was the biggest drug bust in Centre County history up to that time. And there, end of March 2005, at the news conference (even though Gricar had busted the main perp months before) the then AG Corbett was sucking up the limelight. Just days later, AG Corbett was in State College, endorsing MM as the next DA of Centre County...reluctantly responding to a reporter's query about Ray Gricar. That also bothers me greatly because of what I know from Bob Buehner.

See also: Jonathan Luna.

And Barbie Petito, apparently an old flame of Gricar, was along with Corbett to State College when the drug bust was announced. Hmmmm! Barbie just blew DZ off. No way on Saturday, travelling to NY, that she was in Bellefonte or Lewisburg the day before.

It just gets curiouser and couriouser. But you will not find this being discussed anywhere else but here.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Saunterer

[Saunterer]

IMO this is among the meaty stuff people everywhere need to know, consider and discuss...not what Gricar or his daughter did (through his/her attorney) in regard to his estate planning. LE has already, and repeatedly, said there is no missing money in regard to Ray Gricar's assets.

A word to interested Websleuthers who come here to read/post...you will find an infinitely more broad approach to the disappearance of Ray Gricar here then you have been subjected to in years of posts over there.

Welcome!

Edited December 19, 2013 by Saunterer

[Saunterer]

By and large, WS does not know how to deal with what once was a non-confrontational thread. For instance, Salem has generally been supportive of me, but Kimster is a real prick!

Case in point: "Last edited by Kimster; Today at 10:05 PM. Reason: blog approved"

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10048482&postcount=457

[Saunterer]

In approving JJ's blog on the CDT, Websleuths accepts full responsibility for anything and everything that blogger references in his blog, now or in the future...unless and until they remove this foolish endorsement. This is, obviously, a very dangerous and wholly unwarranted position...and one that will, no doubt, come back on them to bite them on the ass. WS does not know how to handle dissenting opinion...and Kimster has definitely now put WS at risk.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Saunterer

[SuperSmith]

In approving JJ's blog on the CDT, Websleuths accepts full responsibility for anything and everything that blogger references in his blog, now or in the future...unless and until they remove this foolish endorsement. This is, obviously, a very dangerous and wholly unwarranted position...and one that will, no doubt, come back on them to bite them on the ass. WS does not know how to handle dissenting opinion...and Kimster has definitely now put WS at risk.

I think she was talking about JKA google blog I posted. I think she actually was fair in this instance as I didn't get banned for posting my opinion and she warned other posters about complaining and alerting the mods all the time. It's a certain cry baby there that is the issue. I'm hurting her "friends" feelings and put cracks in their glass house and storming on their fantasy island......

[SuperSmith]

For foul-play enthusiasts, there is (seemingly) no end to the possibilities, of which the Hell's Angels and Jerry Sandusky revelations are the most recent.

There was the highly emotional shaken-baby case, where Gricar filed his intention to seek the death penalty. The mother went online in defense of her husband and amassed not only "friendly" professional reviews from doctors and attorneys, but hundreds of signers (including some who were belligerent in their comments) in her "Free Mendez" campaign. The mother allegedly threatened the man's local attorney, creating an incident report to the DA's office and local police, and causing the defense attorney to remove himself from the case.

Gricar said he would prosecute the case if came to trial within his term. The trial date was the subject of discussion in judge's chambers in March 2005 (previously reported, where Gicar seemed to be uncharacteristically aloof).

ADA LM was second chair in the case. After Gricar's disappearance, LM essentially folded, saying he was never on board with the death penalty, and pleaded Mendez out. Later LM was accused in another case of offering legal favors to the girlfriend of a defendant in return for sex. There were also others who accused LM of sexual improprieties. LM was fired by the then DA, MM. But to date, no other action has been taken against him.

The (still) unanswered question raised at the time: Did LM let it be known that, but for Ray Gricar, the death penalty would go away (as it did under LM's watch)? This still bothers me today. But you will not find it being discussed anywhere else...because, obviously, Ray Gricar just walked away from his life...his family and other loved ones; his friends; his career; his sense of honesty and duty; his pension,.........

Amazing posts this evening! Just learned a few more things from you. Please don't ever lose your memory. I hope you are documenting this stuff

[Saunterer]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10055010&postcount=488

Get a life, Kimster. You timed me out for no reason whatsoever. You have no compassion for Ray Gricar. And, by approving a blog that is chock full of inaccuracies, falsehoods and outright lunacy, you have now put Websleuths legally at risk...let alone being the laughingstock of those who actually care about what happened to Ray Gricar.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Saunterer

[Saunterer]

Note to Jana...I am enjoying another lager here and hope you are doing the same. It is bingo night at the home and I am hoping to score. Talk about elephants in the room.............

[Saunterer]

Amazing posts this evening! Just learned a few more things from you. Please don't ever lose your memory. I hope you are documenting this stuff

You and others (particularly those on WS) missed so much good intel and discussion. It is a crying shame what got lost in the Gricar cyber-vacuum.

[SuperSmith]

You and others (particularly those on WS) missed so much good intel and discussion. It is a crying shame what got lost in the Gricar cyber-vacuum.

It absolutely sounds as though RG was completely surrounded by evil.

[SuperSmith]

For foul-play enthusiasts, there is (seemingly) no end to the possibilities, of which the Hell's Angels and Jerry Sandusky revelations are the most recent.

There was the highly emotional shaken-baby case, where Gricar filed his intention to seek the death penalty. The mother went online in defense of her husband and amassed not only "friendly" professional reviews from doctors and attorneys, but hundreds of signers (including some who were belligerent in their comments) in her "Free Mendez" campaign. The mother allegedly threatened the man's local attorney, creating an incident report to the DA's office and local police, and causing the defense attorney to remove himself from the case.

Gricar said he would prosecute the case if came to trial within his term. The trial date was the subject of discussion in judge's chambers in March 2005 (previously reported, where Gicar seemed to be uncharacteristically aloof).

ADA LM was second chair in the case. After Gricar's disappearance, LM essentially folded, saying he was never on board with the death penalty, and pleaded Mendez out. Later LM was accused in another case of offering legal favors to the girlfriend of a defendant in return for sex. There were also others who accused LM of sexual improprieties. LM was fired by the then DA, MM. But to date, no other action has been taken against him.

The (still) unanswered question raised at the time: Did LM let it be known that, but for Ray Gricar, the death penalty would go away (as it did under LM's watch)? This still bothers me today. But you will not find it being discussed anywhere else...because, obviously, Ray Gricar just walked away from his life...his family and other loved ones; his friends; his career; his sense of honesty and duty; his pension,.........

Then there was the biggest drug bust in Centre County history up to that time. And there, end of March 2005, at the news conference (even though Gricar had busted the main perp months before) the then AG Corbett was sucking up the limelight. Just days later, AG Corbett was in State College, endorsing MM as the next DA of Centre County...reluctantly responding to a reporter's query about Ray Gricar. That also bothers me greatly because of what I know from Bob Buehner.

See also: Jonathan Luna.

And Barbie Petito, apparently an old flame of Gricar, was along with Corbett to State College when the drug bust was announced. Hmmmm! Barbie just blew DZ off. No way on Saturday, travelling to NY, that she was in Bellefonte or Lewisburg the day before.

It just gets curiouser and couriouser. But you will not find this being discussed anywhere else but here.

MENDEZ-

In our own situation, immediately following the doctors’ diagnosis of SBS, Alejandro and I were both listed as perpetrators on the Childline Abuse Registry. The police conducted their investigation for almost a year with the hope that my husband and I would turn on each other. That did not happen and it never will. In August of 2003, 11 ½ months following the death of our precious angel, approximately 15 armed police, SWAT, and detectives surrounded my parents’ house and arrested my husband. Before Alejandro’s indictment, our attorney had requested that we be permitted to turn ourselves in to the authorities in the event that an arrest would be made; however the State refused to comply with this petition.

My husband is currently incarcerated as a result of summary diagnosis by the medical establishment, more specifically due to presumptions made by the treating physicians and the medical examiner. Alejandro is 100% innocent and he never harmed his precious son in any way! He was charged with first and third degree murder for the death of his beloved baby boy. The District Attorney of Centre County, PA, Ray Gricar, is seeking the death penalty. He is seeking the death penalty! My husband is an innocent man who has no prior criminal record!

As if the loss of our only beloved son wasn’t enough, as a result of these false allegations Alejandro and I have lost our home, our savings, our careers, and our reputations! Even I still am being treated with suspicion. This exact situation could happen to anyone. We never imagined it happening to us.

Screams motive

http://www.informedchoice.info/SIDS_aux3.php

http://raynesmccarty.com/joomla252/newsevents/91-the-legal-intelligencer/150-raynes-mccarty-pro-bono-team-proves-that-faulty-medical-evidence-led-to-father-being-falsely-accused-in-sons-death.html

[Bay Harbor Butcher]

wow, never knew the details about that case. Very interesting...

Saunterer- can you give me more details on BP? You think she wasn't really in NY?

[2-B]

SS, in regard to your post #1525:

As 2-B pointed out (#1502), "It's the "Independents," so to speak, whom JJ wants to reach now--one of the reasons for his move to Over Yonder some time back, where true debate and refutation are discouraged and, as we've seen, even punished with Time Out in the corner and threat of banning."

Not sure there are more than two dozen souls who care enough about Gricar's disappearance to follow the online discussion. But I sympathize with readers/posters on any Gricar forum in 2013 who were not around in 2005/2006. In large part by necessity, many of them rely on someone to tell them what is "real". When others try to tell them differently, the natural knee-jerk reaction is to be offended.

We are apparently viewed as invaders into their "happy home" over yonder, even though all we want is for readers everywhere to discern fact from fiction. And they do come here (since the Crime Library forum folded) because, deep down, most of them want to know what others think. JMOO

Excellent assessment, especially the happy home invasion image. I tend to think many/most there don't have the background to realize they've been lulled into believing a complex web of disinformation. The creator of the false narrative is quite adept at making himself sound as if he has Super Secret Sources giving him special insight into the case, and challengers come off looking as if they are full of sour grapes, not people who can reveal the fictions of The Answer Grape.

[2-B]

I concur with real life doesn't always play out the way we think it does. Not every clue or possible clue is supposed to lead us somewhere. However, we have no other choice but to try to put the pieces of a puzzle together even if they really shouldn't be in the box lol.

I don't think Ray was meeting someone there for anything work related, as BB has said in the past, that's what the police do and it would make the attorney a witness.

He may have been followed for a while by someone or some group.

as for his brother, depression is a tough thing to deal with and unless you suffer from it it's real easy to say that why would someone commit suicide by drowning if they are afraid of water. Sometimes the mind just isn't working right and maybe on that day he felt that was the easiest way to do it, who knows.

It's probably also worth considering re Roy that he didn't battle "simple" depression but the more complicated bi-polar disorder--and according to TG had apparently stopped taking his medication prior to his death.

[2-B]

For foul-play enthusiasts, there is (seemingly) no end to the possibilities, of which the Hell's Angels and Jerry Sandusky revelations are the most recent.

There was the highly emotional shaken-baby case, where Gricar filed his intention to seek the death penalty. The mother went online in defense of her husband and amassed not only "friendly" professional reviews from doctors and attorneys, but hundreds of signers (including some who were belligerent in their comments) in her "Free Mendez" campaign. The mother allegedly threatened the man's local attorney, creating an incident report to the DA's office and local police, and causing the defense attorney to remove himself from the case.

Gricar said he would prosecute the case if came to trial within his term. The trial date was the subject of discussion in judge's chambers in March 2005 (previously reported, where Gicar seemed to be uncharacteristically aloof).

ADA LM was second chair in the case. After Gricar's disappearance, LM essentially folded, saying he was never on board with the death penalty, and pleaded Mendez out. Later LM was accused in another case of offering legal favors to the girlfriend of a defendant in return for sex. There were also others who accused LM of sexual improprieties. LM was fired by the then DA, MM. But to date, no other action has been taken against him.

The (still) unanswered question raised at the time: Did LM let it be known that, but for Ray Gricar, the death penalty would go away (as it did under LM's watch)? This still bothers me today. But you will not find it being discussed anywhere else...because, obviously, Ray Gricar just walked away from his life...his family and other loved ones; his friends; his career; his sense of honesty and duty; his pension,.........

There’s no doubt that trying to find missing persons requires a tremendous amount of work. Classifying cases as “runaways” or “walk-aways” does nothing to help the outcome of any given case. If anything, it could hinder and slow the process. The general public normally will not have a heightened sense of concern for those believed to have left on their own.

Monica Caison, founder of CUE Center for Missing Persons, a nonprofit organization that advocates and searches for the missing and provides support for their families.

http://www.ncmissingpersons.org/index.php?s=Unidentified+remains

Edited December 19, 2013 by 2-B