Satan's Losing War...?

[ambelamba]

Back in my Christian days some of my fellow churchgoers brought up an interesting question: Why wouldn't Satan just surrender?

Usually the answer from the pastors is that Satan is incapable of doing that. And I really didn't question their solution. But things changed.

The whole rebellion of Satan thing is nothing but a product of some poor transmissions of traditions. Actually, the whole story has so many plot holes that the entire Hell's army designed by Wayne D Barlowe can march through them.

The whole rebellion in Heaven simply doesn't add up. And that Milton guy made the whole thing even uglier. Now the fervent side of Christianity came up with a plethora of fanfictions. And I bet some of them faithfully abide to Rule 34. (heh)

But in non-Christian cultures, such massive tripping is virtually non-existent. In East Asia, there was no traditional doomsday myth at all. Even the closest one is about everything going well and no one gets thrown into Hell. I tried to explain this to a few westerners but they simply couldn't comprehend. Or, more like what I said simply passed through the other ear.

So let's pretend this Satan's rebellion is based on what really happened. It's not unreasonable to think Satan has a pretty good intellect. And he is willingly fighting a losing war? If you try to fit this into the traditional setup of God vs. Satan thing, it really doesn't make any sense.

See guys, please listen to me. Outside of Christianity this kind of thing is not so common. Even in Hinduism those evil deities are just...another deities going on their lives. Seriously guys, listen to me. This whole versus thing is nowhere near universal around the world. Why would you guys still hang on to such bleak and non-sensical idea?!

[Space Commander Travis]

I think "Bam" Obama is going to make him his next target now he's been cheated out of Assad, so he'll soon get it sorted, no need to worry.

[eight bits]

Colonel Rhuairidh

I think "Bam" Obama is going to make him his next target now he's been cheated out of Assad, so he'll soon get it sorted, no need to worry.

I don't know. From what I hear, Putin's pretty well connected down there, too.

ambelamba

I lost you somewhere around the Hindu gods aren't really all bad. What is that to Christians or Muslims?

[shadowhive]

Back in my Christian days some of my fellow churchgoers brought up an interesting question: Why wouldn't Satan just surrender?

I've also heard the other question 'if god is all powerful why doesn't god just beat him?'

The whole thing has never made any sense really, not when you think about it. I think it's just a construct, one designed to scare people (I've heard christians here say that satan/hell are later constructs wit not much basis in the original text). I think it was just something designed by pastors to keep people in line through fear to stop them from questioning.

[LostSouls7]

It is to keep people in line... under control

and enslave.. and to keep the church leaders rich!!!

They would hate to see people free and reach their max potential in life!!

then they couldn't get rich off the people who donate money in fear they go to hell..

unless the put money in the those collection plates

All I can say is Harold Camping...

made millions of the dumb sheep who blindly followed him.

He ran off with the money never to be seen again...

sounds more like something the devil would do if you ask me

Edited September 10, 2013 by LostSouls7

[+Paranoid Android]

Satan is, perhaps, doing exactly the role that God has planned for him. I'd argue against a "war in heaven". The textual basis is quite thin. But if such a war did take place, then if this is what God planned then that's what he had planned. Thus Satan fills the role God laid out for him. If that role includes fighting a losing war then why would God be unable to set Satan down that path?

As noted, I don't believe there was a war. Satan is playing the role of an accusing angel, offering us alternatives to doing God's will. But he is doing this not out of malice or hatred of God but because that is the role God set out for him. Though I do believe that for all intents and purposes Satan's job is also his hobby, so whether Satan is a rebel or simply doing God's will his role towards mankind is the same.

So with that said, I don't know how to answer your question. What other beliefs around the world hold to be true doesn't affect what I believe. My beliefs make sense to me (and yes, I've studied several religions) so just because my beliefs aren't universal to other world views shouldn't affect how I view them. Indeed, what would be distinctive in my beliefs if I chopped and changed them to make them the same as everyone else?

Edited September 11, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Heru]

Judaism is monotheistic and there is no good guy or bad guy. Just God, no war

Christianity is hellenistic and there is a good guy and a bad guy. God + 1, war

Not just Job but theres another book in the bible that has satan in it and again hes a loyal servant of god. I think its just in revelations where hes some big bad guy. Ofcourse the guy who wrote that was a lil crazy but hey whatever you wanna believe in.

[Space Commander Travis]

I think really, because the Christian theologists decided to make Jesus the "Warrior of Light", (which was based very much on their own particular interpretation of his teachings, as it so often is), they had to create this whole Cosmic battleground of Good vs. Evil concept, since Jesus could hardly be a Warrior with no one to fight, so they took the notion of "Satan", which had been introduced on one or two occasions in the OT, and decided to make him the Great Villain. But then they built themselves a bit of a booby trap there, since if God was almighty and All-Powerful, why couldn't he just dispose of satan with a snap of his metaphorical Fingers? So they then devised this rather contrived idea that Satan is doomed to failure, he's just to stubborn to realise it.

Again, I suppose, you could draw whatever political analogies you wanted from that.

[qxcontinuum]

wondering how we would measure God's goodness if we don't have nothing to compare or to refer to opuses.

I think Satan was necessary as for souls filtration. God needs those powerful ultimate souls He can trust. He doesn't need wicked ones and ain't place in heavens for sinners. Imagine someone like lady Gaga going to heavens .... you get the picture....

So Satan is the necessary evil testing and weeding out the poor souls leaving place for the strongest ones for God's kingdom.

Same would do a good manager in a modern company. He would need constant challenge to get better. He will show appreciation for those 'licking his arsch" for sure but it will get pleasure and higher plans for those constantly challenging him... until to a point tho... Satan knows his place and he had never crossed that point I guess. They are probably having 1 x1 's and meeting somewhere out there ...he he

[White Crane Feather]

What I always thought would be an interesting plot twist and actually a more likely one is if Satan has actually succeeded at representing himself as god.

If I were a highly intelligent spirit being bent on evil, I would not make people's head spin and puke pea soup. I would create several religions with extremely dogmatic principals designed to enslave people, creat war, and I would set them against each other. I would slso find ways for man to destroy his environment, I would create destructive economy's, political systems, and call all of it good and progress.

If the satan of Christianity is a reality, then he is doing a p*** poor job. I think the abrahamic god is a much better candidate for Satan. That's not that I don't believe in a loveing great spirit, I do, but this Satan character is a moron, I could do a much better job, and the abrahamic god is doing his job for him.

Edited September 11, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[Space Commander Travis]

What I always thought would be an interesting plot twist and actually a more likely one is if Satan has actually succeeded at representing himself as god.

If I were a highly intelligent spirit being bent on evil, I would not make people's head spin and puke pea soup. I would create several religions with extremely dogmatic principals designed to enslave people, creat war, and I would set them against each other. I would slso find ways for man to destroy his environment, I would create destructive economy's, political systems, and call all of it good and progress.

If the satan of Christianity is a reality, then he is doing a p*** poor job. I think the abrahamic god is a much better candidate for Satan. That's not that I don't believe in a loveing great spirit, I do, but this Satan character is a moron, I could do a much better job, and the abrahamic god is doing his job for him.

Actually that sounds pretty much like the philosophy of, was it the Cathars or the Gnostics, one of those Dualist lot anyway, who believed that the material world was corrupt and evil, and so must be a manifestation of Satan, and the real God existed just in the spiritual realm.

[Nik Xues]

wondering how we would measure God's goodness if we don't have nothing to compare or to refer to opuses.

I think Satan was necessary as for souls filtration. God needs those powerful ultimate souls He can trust. He doesn't need wicked ones and ain't place in heavens for sinners. Imagine someone like lady Gaga going to heavens .... you get the picture....

So Satan is the necessary evil testing and weeding out the poor souls leaving place for the strongest ones for God's kingdom.

Same would do a good manager in a modern company. He would need constant challenge to get better. He will show appreciation for those 'licking his arsch" for sure but it will get pleasure and higher plans for those constantly challenging him... until to a point tho... Satan knows his place and he had never crossed that point I guess. They are probably having 1 x1 's and meeting somewhere out there ...he he

this jives with my perception of the situation but its not about trust.

if we are indeed gods children then his power will be ours one day.

stop and think what would you do with the power to make anything happen at a thought?

at first it sounds great but consider the terrible creatures we have conjured in our nightmares.

without the character to face such creations our fear would give them the power to destroy us.

[Whisperer]

Satan I believe, is a construct, an enemy created to support a myth.

Then again, Welcome to Hell, the only place where you can burn eternally in the passions of self torment...for however long you choose eternity to be, literally miliseconds that seems like eternity..

and while I have you all trapped and jailed here, what channel would you like to watch?

[Leonardo]

Back in my Christian days some of my fellow churchgoers brought up an interesting question: Why wouldn't Satan just surrender?

It is my understanding from my reading of various biblical passages, that angels do not have free will, unlike humanity. This ties into the "it's all part of God's plan" argument. If God planned it, the angels cannot but follow it.

If the angels do not have free will, then one should not read them in the narrative as characters separate from God. If that is difficult, simply substitiute "God" for the name of any angel mentioned.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Leonardo

[Kaa-Tzik]

I have never been to hell and met satan, and I have never been to heaven and met god. Neither have I ever seen an angel or a demon. So how can anybody say they know there was or was not a war in heaven, how can anybody say they know the plans of any god or devil? There is nothing, not one shred of evidence for any of these fantasies, and it is a huge conceit for anybody to say they know about these beings or places as if they are real. Anybody can believe of course, but please don't tell me that some fantasy involving burning bushes etc, gives anybody the right to essentially say what god thinks. So, who here has been to heaven or spoken to god and knows what it's all about?. Or for that matter the converse in hell, anybody, or is it all really fantasy.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Leonardo]

I have never been to hell and met satan, and I have never been to heaven and met god. Neither have I ever seen an angel or a demon. So how can anybody say they know there was or was not a war in heaven, how can anybody say they know the plans of any god or devil? There is nothing, not one shred of evidence for any of these fantasies, and it is a huge conceit for anybody to say they know about these beings or places as if they are real. Anybody can believe of course, but please don't tell me that some fantasy involving burning bushes etc, gives anybody the right to essentially say what god thinks. So, who here has been to heaven or spoken to god and knows what it's all about?. Or for that matter the converse in hell, anybody, or is it all really fantasy.

This is the "Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs" forum, Kaa-Tzik.

This forum is not about questioning the basis of beliefs, but on speculation based on what is known about them. In this case, one can have read the Christian scripture (or whatever relevant passages are being discussed) and speculate based on what that says, but not question whether people are justified believing in what that scripture states.

That skepticism belongs in the "Spirituality vs Skepticism" forum.

[Kaa-Tzik]

This is the "Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs" forum, Kaa-Tzik.

This forum is not about questioning the basis of beliefs, but on speculation based on what is known about them. In this case, one can have read the Christian scripture (or whatever relevant passages are being discussed) and speculate based on what that says, but not question whether people are justified believing in what that scripture states.

That skepticism belongs in the "Spirituality vs Skepticism" forum.

Lecture other posters before me, please, as some older posts than mine are definately skeptical and frivolous even. I raise a valid point about how can anybody say there was or was not a war in heaven if they have not been there and seen it.

[qxcontinuum]

What would be the point then in testing someone if they will be shown wonders and greatness? Would't that be easy with no true value in the spiritual process whatsoever?

God is demaning to believe blindly and face all the chalanges spiritually. It's so obvious"

[Arpee]

I have never been to hell and met satan, and I have never been to heaven and met god. Neither have I ever seen an angel or a demon. So how can anybody say they know there was or was not a war in heaven, how can anybody say they know the plans of any god or devil? There is nothing, not one shred of evidence for any of these fantasies

Just because it was not a part of "your" experience, that doesn't mean that it wasn't a part of anyone else's. You assume that since "you" didn't experience angels and demons that mean absolutely no one else has.

it is a huge conceit for anybody to say they know about these beings or places as if they are real. Anybody can believe of course, but please don't tell me that some fantasy involving burning bushes etc, gives anybody the right to essentially say what god thinks.

Well , they have the right to see the world in whatever way they see fit.

So, who here has been to heaven or spoken to god and knows what it's all about?. Or for that matter the converse in hell, anybody, or is it all really fantasy.

Almost everyone who has a Near Death Experience.

[ambelamba]

Almost everyone who has a Near Death Experience.

You are deliberately ignoring the fact that different people from different culture see different versions of afterlife.

[Space Commander Travis]

You are deliberately ignoring the fact that different people from different culture see different versions of afterlife.

Which surely is conditioned by their expectations, based on their culture? perhaps (like, perhaps, with other Supernatural phenomenana), what they see is actually real, but what they themselves personally see or experience is conditioned by what they expect to see. I think Terry Pratchett's theory might well hold some water; the afterlife that people experience is the one that they were expecting.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Colonel Rhuairidh

[Kaa-Tzik]

Just because it was not a part of "your" experience, that doesn't mean that it wasn't a part of anyone else's. You assume that since "you" didn't experience angels and demons that mean absolutely no one else has.

If there is any evidence that anybody has been to heaven and come back, or from hell for that matter, then that is news bug enought to stop the entire world in it's tracks. Fact is when people die, they never come back to tell us. This statement does not preclude the existance of heaven or hell, but, just that nobody comes back. This is why I asked how anybody can know if there was a war in heaven, who are the witnesses, who has said there was a war and can they be believed. To answer the OP it needs to be acertained that there was a war in the first place, and why, when.

[fullywired]

This post seems to suggests that Heaven is an actual place .yet the scriptures don't seem to agree with this

“…The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the Kingdom of God is within you” (KJV).

so where did the war take place?

Jesus .said it isn’t “Here” or “There,” .It seems to me he is saying that heaven isn’t a place, it’s not somewhere we go.

fullywired

[Arpee]

You are deliberately ignoring the fact that different people from different culture see different versions of afterlife.

So what? I was not "deliberately" ignoring it. There was no point to bring that up - it's irrelevant to the discussion. My point was people experience spiritual things - so to say that "no one" should believe because "no one" experienced it - is untrue.

If there is any evidence that anybody has been to heaven and come back, or from hell for that matter, then that is news bug enought to stop the entire world in it's tracks. Fact is when people die, they never come back to tell us. This statement does not preclude the existance of heaven or hell, but, just that nobody comes back. This is why I asked how anybody can know if there was a war in heaven, who are the witnesses, who has said there was a war and can they be believed. To answer the OP it needs to be acertained that there was a war in the first place, and why, when.

I wasn't talking about "evidence", I was talking about "personal experience" and why some people believe even though it isn't proven.

[Rlyeh]

Jesus .said it isn’t “Here” or “There,” .It seems to me he is saying that heaven isn’t a place, it’s not somewhere we go.

fullywired

Yet didn't he fly to heaven after he came back to life?