What 9/11 Taught Me...

[ambelamba]

Faith can't move a mountain, no matter how great it is.

But it surely can bring down skyscrapers and kill everyone in them.

I should have realized much earlier.

[GoldenWolf]

Faith can't move a mountain, no matter how great it is.

But it surely can bring down skyscrapers and kill everyone in them.

I should have realized much earlier.

Sucks doesn't it.

[ambelamba]

Sucks doesn't it.

Yes...

I do have a love/hate thing going on with mankind.

[The Silver Thong]

Faith is blind hence a long time walking around in the dark just being told what you want to hear.

[+Link of Hyrule]

I just drove into our closest major town (about 40 minutes drive). The highway went through mountains that had to be dug through at some point in our past. Many years ago, people with bulldozers, tip trucks, and other such equipment moved the mountain away and built a highway through it. Faith must have been used when deciding that a road between the north and south of our area would be necessary.

In short, faith did move this mountain and I daresay many other mountains in our world.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[The Silver Thong]

I just drove into our closest major town (about 40 minutes drive). The highway went through mountains that had to be digg though at some point in our past. Many years ago, people with bulldozers, tip trucks, and other such equipment moved the mountain away and built a highway through it. Faith must have been used when deciding that a road between the north and south of our area would be necessary.

In short, faith did move this mountain and I daresay many other mountains in our world.

I just drove into our closest major town (about 40 minutes drive). The highway went through mountains that had to be digg though at some point in our past. Many years ago, people with bulldozers, tip trucks, and other such equipment moved the mountain away and built a highway through it. Faith must have been used when deciding that a road between the north and south of our area would be necessary.

In short, faith did move this mountain and I daresay many other mountains in our world.

No the math to make that road made it possible. I drive through the rockie mountians 3 times a year ( rogers pass ) and it took enginnering not faith to make that possible. It does not take faith to belive in math nore science but trust in ones fellow mans inginuity and comptiance.

Edited September 12, 2013 by The Silver Thong

[ambelamba]

PA does make me believe that faith does have a very terrifying effect on human mind.

*snip*

Edited September 12, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[+and-then]

People who despise faith have never been in enough need to accept it. That changes in time.

[+Link of Hyrule]

No the math to make that road made it possible. I drive through the rockie mountians 3 times a year ( rogers pass ) and it took enginnering not faith to make that possible. It does not take faith to belive in math nore science but trust in ones fellow mans inginuity and comptiance.

Ah, so it took no science or engineering to build planes and all that was needed for 9/11. I'm with you Edited September 12, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[The Silver Thong]

PA does make me believe that faith does have a very terrifying effect on human mind.

*snip*

Faith is weak as is gravity unless pushed to the extreme. UM has a good balance imo and PA is a good mod, we have srta known each other for years and we get each oth even though I don`t post as much

People who despise faith have never been in enough need to accept it. That changes in time.

Could you explain how one comes to need it.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[GoldenWolf]

People who despise faith have never been in enough need to accept it. That changes in time.

The only thing time has changed for faith in my life is the more times passes, the more I see it is unwarranted and destructive (the religious kind of faith).

Edited September 12, 2013 by Mystic Crusader

[The Silver Thong]

Ah, so it took no science or engineering to build planes and AOL that was needed for 9/11. I'm with you

Science was the man made invention that faith used to kill man on that day and I believe the faith was in Allah and the after life. Sad but true or was it for money.

The only thing time has changed for faith in my life is the more times passes, the more I see it is unwarranted and destructive (the religious kind of faith).

I have no idea why when I quote you it comes up twice, sorry about that.

Ok this posting thing is getting weird lol

Edited September 12, 2013 by The Silver Thong

[The Silver Thong]

The only thing time has changed for faith in my life is the more times passes, the more I see it is unwarranted and destructive (the religious kind of faith).

I hear ya faith to me is as pointless as tossing a coin into a wishing well. However many confuse hope with faith and need to put a lable on it.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Science was the man made invention that faith used to kill man on that day and I believe the faith was in Allah and the after life. Sad but true or was it for money.

So could we not say then that bulldozers, trucks, and engineering principles were the manmade inventions used by those who truly believed (faith) that a road through the mountain would be a good thing for the community?

[ambelamba]

Just a silly thought, but imagine a situation when your dear faith is challenged. Angry 7-foot tall guys with power armors and gauss rifles storm into the church you are in with other frightened churchgoers. They damand you to abandon your faith and embrace their mechanistic philosophy. You and others refuse.

Then they pull the triggers. In full auto mode.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

PA does make me believe that faith does have a very terrifying effect on human mind.

*snip*

It's very telling that you choose to attack the person, not the point being presented.

PA is an excellent moderator whose fairness and compassion is beyond question. So fair in fact that he did not edit the slur you made against himself only removed the derogatory comment against UM.

[White Crane Feather]

I find that one does not need faith to be spiritual.

Faith does indeed move mountains. As PA mentioned mountains have indeed been moved and its purely a result of a person or persons faith in themselves. Without it nothing would be accomplished.

[White Crane Feather]

PA does make me believe that faith does have a very terrifying effect on human mind.

*snip*

As someone diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, you are going to have to learn to pay as much detail to how you relate to others as you do other things. It's more of a skill for you where as others have it innately, so you are going to have to practice.

The hallmark of the syndrome is that you cannot innately forecast reactions of others and therefore engage in much anti social behavior because you do not fully understand the consequences of your actions. You have to learn to approach relationships like an equation. Do not let negative comments come into being until you have fully applied the equation of people unlike yourself. A good councilor that understands spectrum people can help you formulate this. Aspergers can lead to much depression if you don't learn these social coping skills.

Just some friendly advice.

Edited September 12, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[Leonardo]

So could we not say then that bulldozers, trucks, and engineering principles were the manmade inventions used by those who truly believed (faith) that a road through the mountain would be a good thing for the community?

That is a very different quality of faith, PA, as I believe you are aware.

That a road through a mountain may be a good thing for communities on opposite sides of that mountain can be demonstrated, and the results reliably predicted via examples of the same having occurred elsewhere.

The faith that when one commits suicide by flying a plane full of people into a building full of people to kill all those people, results in the glorification after death of the suicide by some undemonstrable deity, is based on no example, evidence or reliable prediction.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Leonardo

[ambelamba]

As someone diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome, you are going to have to learn to pay as much detail to how you relate to others as you do other things. It's more of a skill for you where as others have it innately, so you are going to have to practice.

The hallmark of the syndrome is that you cannot innately forecast reactions of others and therefore engage in much anti social behavior because you do not fully understand the consequences of your actions. You have to learn to approach relationships like an equation. Do not let negative comments come into being until you have fully applied the equation of people unlike yourself. A good councilor that understands spectrum people can help you formulate this. Aspergers can lead to much depression if you don't learn these social coping skills.

Just some friendly advice.

I know.

I can tell you that I learned my lesson throughout my life. Oh, I know it very well. I paid the consequences of the actions I made, unlike some of my family members who used unethical methods to get ahead and became high-ranking bureaucrats.

But...I also have the mentality that cannot tolerate what I perceive as deviant. And I am a very rare case of deconversion that came much later in my life. And it came with an excruciating pain. I do understand that my hostility to organized religions stemmed from my tormented history.

EDIT: And one more thing.

The Christian faith was the ultimate truth to me. Jesus was my sovereign lord and master. The Bible was the ultimate codex of eternal truth and wisdom to me. I am not lying. Christianity was everything. It was what defined my very essence.

And it all turned out to be a great deception. Probably a deliberate construct for whatever reasons. Realizing this, do you really expect me to show any kind of sympathy for the Christian apologetics? Really?

Edited September 12, 2013 by ambelamba

[+Liquid Gardens]

So could we not say then that bulldozers, trucks, and engineering principles were the manmade inventions used by those who truly believed (faith) that a road through the mountain would be a good thing for the community?

I'm not sure that this is really a good analogy for religious faith, as I see everything that happens with making a road through a mountain as being pragmatic and evidence-based. You don't need any type of faith to determine that a road through a mountain would be a good thing for the community, those roads are typically constructed (I'd actually say even more than 'typically' given the cost involved) because the alternative route is too burdensome. I don't see how these types of decisions have anything to do with faith, it all seems to be based on reason and evidence alone.

Personally I'd think a better analogy to religious faith, especially in the 9/11 sense, would be for a scenario where they dig into a mountain with the goal of hopefully finding a gold vein. They have no evidence that this particular mountain probably has gold but they know that some do, so they take a risk and hope they find some. Someone involved in this decision to undertake that project probably has some type of 'faith' that they will find gold but they don't have real direct evidence that it does, they trust/hope that it does. Just as religious people don't have direct evidence that god exists let alone that the god behaves the way they believe he does, and therefore use faith to justify that belief. Roads through mountains can almost always be justified by reason alone.

[ambelamba]

I'm not sure that this is really a good analogy for religious faith, as I see everything that happens with making a road through a mountain as being pragmatic and evidence-based. You don't need any type of faith to determine that a road through a mountain would be a good thing for the community, those roads are typically constructed (I'd actually say even more than 'typically' given the cost involved) because the alternative route is too burdensome. I don't see how these types of decisions have anything to do with faith, it all seems to be based on reason and evidence alone.

It definitely isn't. But it's really hard to tell if PA really meant it or just wanted to mess with people's mind. I have no clue. But the truth is that many of those who seem to be trolling are...not really trolling at all.

[Almagest]

Faith is belief without evidence, so I don't see how someone building a bridge through a mountain constitutes faith. Surely they had talked to Geologists so they didn't dig through fractures that could make the road unsafe to drive on, at the very least? And if it was so easy, why did we have to wait around for engineering to be invented before we started building these things? And surely you're not implying that it was somehow made easier due to faith? If it inspired the workers to get up every day, sure, but why is faith lauded as a motivator when beer and strippers can motivate a worker just as much? Surely living in a capitalist society they'd also be strongly motivated by money. Or did the builders faith somehow weaken the stone and make it easier to dig through? If having faith that the laws of the universe will bend for your benefit, why weren't some of the people jumping out of the World Trade Centre as it burned able to survive? Surely the faithful would be able to drift gently down to the ground, or were they just not faithful enough? What you're referring to PA is not faith, it's trust. Trust usually has some reason backing it up. They studied the composition of the mountain so they didn't dig into any gas seams and kill themselves. They used geometry to design the road itself so it wasn't too steep or hazardous. They placed trust in Geology and Geometry because they have proven themselves before.

No, I have to agree with ambelamba. Ever since I began to understand the people behind the 9/11 attacks I have been very suspicious of anyone who talks about faith as a noble quality. It can have positive effects, but just because someone proclaims their faith doesn't mean they're automatically good. On the contrary I think some of the most vile people on the planet hide behind their faith.

Reason is a better quality to have. There is no good reason to commit a suicide bombing. There is no good reason to perform genital mutilation on a child. Reason built the world we're living in today. And every step forward has met resistance from the faithful.

[scowl]

So could we not say then that bulldozers, trucks, and engineering principles were the manmade inventions used by those who truly believed (faith) that a road through the mountain would be a good thing for the community?

Please talk to a civil engineer. We do not spend millions of dollars building a road unless studies have proved that the road would provide some kind of social or economic benefit.

Bridges I'm not so sure about. We are planning on building another bridge across the Columbia here. It will cost well over a billion dollars. No one can explain why we need this bridge but the Feds are going to pay for almost all of it so why not?

[J. K.]

Faith is belief without evidence,.....

Part of the problem is that "belief without evidence" is not the only definition of faith. Faith can also mean confidence or trust in a person or thing. We trust that a chair will support our weight because it has done so in the past. We have faith in the chair's ability.