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CyberKen

Trumka Sweetheart ObamaCare Deal : Doomed

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More specifics have come out regarding the sweetheart deal Obama offered the unions.

It looks like it won't happen. This is why:

A deal such as this by the Obama administration for the union would be illegal.

Giving union workers exchange subsidies in addition to the income tax exclusion

would be " double dipping ".

More info here:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/09/13/trumka-calls-for-obamacare-concessions-for-unions-after-white-house-meeting/

Edited by CyberKen

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Richard Trumpka used to be the President of the UMW...when my brother was a miner. He was working on becoming a crook then and he is a professional crook now. It's refreshing to see that he has acknowledged that Obamacare is a disaster.

My bro retired from the mines. He has health issues...but he has a decent pension. I am yet to figure out why people have a problem with people that risked their lives everyday for the good of commerce getting a solid and reasonable retirement plan. My brother saw cave ins, electrocutions...you name it. He actually caused a strike once when he was a roof bolters helper and the bolter got his arm torn off by the machine. His boss told my brother to get on the machine and keep bolting...there was actually blood and meat still hanging on the machine...my brother told the boss man... "**** you!"...and walked out...and the whole mine followed him...and so did the workers in about 14 other mines the next day. Everyone thinks unions are spoiled brats...I grew up with a totally different experience. If you do not know a deep shaft coal miner...your opinion is always going to be lessened in my opinion.

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American unions are so often corrupt. I wonder why.

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American unions are so often corrupt. I wonder why.

Mostly because the only chance of survival they had is being run by the mob. The establishment did its best to run any form of organization that used only legit means into the ground.

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Mostly because the only chance of survival they had is being run by the mob. The establishment did its best to run any form of organization that used only legit means into the ground.

That sounds a bit of a stretch. I think it more likely labor racketeering is something urban politicians tend to tolerate and even encourage.

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American unions are so often corrupt. I wonder why.

There is no argument here. I wish it had not came to this. The AWU (auto workers union) has put a permanent black eye on unions for most people that do not know the full spectrum. I remember when the demi-god of Republicans broke the air traffic controllers union...

When Reagan busted that Union...it was the beginning of the end of all unions...good ones and bad ones.

I will be the first to admit that there are moments of ridiculousness in unions. When a worker can't drive a nail in a piece of wood because he is not a carpenter and the "work" must be held up till a union approved worker can get around to it...common sense has left the building.

But I am old enough and know my history well enough to know that unions have done far more good for the people than any harm that might have came from them.

The next time you are enjoying your weekend...a Thanksgiving or Christmas holiday...a week or two paid vacation....you should close your eyes and say a little thanks to the unions of days gone by....they are the ones that brought you these things...along with a 40 hour work week. Not to mention they also stopped illegal child labor....like in the old days when they used to use children to set explosive charges in mines...

I know the modern mind has found a multitude of reasons to think that unions represent a bad thing...but I disagree. I see abuses...but I see an essential part of the symbiotic relationship of corporation and worker...a balance...a "fairness" factor. be thee not deceived. Had it not been for unions, you'd be working for a days food and shelter and purchasing everything you need with company script at the company owned store....need some credit?...fine...now they own your soul forever.

Tennessee Ernie Ford....Sixteen tons...."I owe my soul to the company store"...

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Richard Trumpka used to be the President of the UMW...when my brother was a miner. He was working on becoming a crook then and he is a professional crook now. It's refreshing to see that he has acknowledged that Obamacare is a disaster.

My bro retired from the mines. He has health issues...but he has a decent pension. I am yet to figure out why people have a problem with people that risked their lives everyday for the good of commerce getting a solid and reasonable retirement plan. My brother saw cave ins, electrocutions...you name it. He actually caused a strike once when he was a roof bolters helper and the bolter got his arm torn off by the machine. His boss told my brother to get on the machine and keep bolting...there was actually blood and meat still hanging on the machine...my brother told the boss man... "**** you!"...and walked out...and the whole mine followed him...and so did the workers in about 14 other mines the next day. Everyone thinks unions are spoiled brats...I grew up with a totally different experience. If you do not know a deep shaft coal miner...your opinion is always going to be lessened in my opinion.

Unions helped at first. Now they have become a liability. They drove wages so high that GM went bankrupt.

I have a problem with Trumka selling/pushing ObamaCare but only after he got a wink and a nod about a

sweetheart deal after it passes. "Get this passed and i will let you double dip!"

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That sounds a bit of a stretch. I think it more likely labor racketeering is something urban politicians tend to tolerate and even encourage.

The labor movement in the US is much older than the mob (1842) and forcibly held down by police, Pinkertons and some times the Army. Only when the mob stepped in in the 20s it started to get some grip.

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Unions helped at first. Now they have become a liability. They drove wages so high that GM went bankrupt.

I have a problem with Trumka selling/pushing ObamaCare but only after he got a wink and a nod about a

sweetheart deal after it passes. "Get this passed and i will let you double dip!"

Trumpka is now against it....he has seen the light and the threat to jobs across the board.

Coolective bargaining is not the problem....organized crime running the unions has become the problem. Like nearly everything else, a good thing has became tainted and corrupt...but I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater. When there is no bargaining power for the workers...everyone and I do mean everyone...will be meat that is treated just like that. You wil have no rights...you will have no recourse...and so many people welcome this...

Do you think that the new era of "robber barons" are going to treat you well and pay you well just because it's good?...you better open your eyes to reality. This is the "Me" generation and they will do as little as they can get away with. To imagine otherwise is madness and foolishness in the extreme...

But fine...I am self employed. I make my own contracts every project I take on. Sometimes I win and sometimes I get the short end of the stick...and no one to blame but me. Not everyone has that freedom and capacity. Collective bargaining is capitalism in motion....how the "free market" fans do not see this is beyond me.

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Trumpka is now against it....he has seen the light and the threat to jobs across the board.

Coolective bargaining is not the problem....organized crime running the unions has become the problem. Like nearly everything else, a good thing has became tainted and corrupt...but I refuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater. When there is no bargaining power for the workers...everyone and I do mean everyone...will be meat that is treated just like that. You wil have no rights...you will have no recourse...and so many people welcome this...

Do you think that the new era of "robber barons" are going to treat you well and pay you well just because it's good?...you better open your eyes to reality. This is the "Me" generation and they will do as little as they can get away with. To imagine otherwise is madness and foolishness in the extreme...

But fine...I am self employed. I make my own contracts every project I take on. Sometimes I win and sometimes I get the short end of the stick...and no one to blame but me. Not everyone has that freedom and capacity. Collective bargaining is capitalism in motion....how the "free market" fans do not see this is beyond me.

Actually i saw the video. Trumka walked into the White House smiling but left disgusted. He told the reporter they told him to wait 1 week.

Since double dipping is illegal they will try to come up with something else. We should know more next week.

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The Union fights over in West Virginia are legendary. I recall the history when a sheriff that backed the miners was killed at the courthouse by the Pinkerton's when he was coming out from giving testimony about the Pinkerton's beating and killing miners.

I have been to Matewan...we used to build conveyors and material handling systems for "Old Ben Coal" down in Thacker West Virginia.

My brothers (both of them) were miners and while I was still in school, they both pulled me aside and said "do not become a miner". I instead went into construction engineering. They were somewhat happy until I started working construction jobs in the coal fields that still put me underground on occasion. I remember my oldest brother coming to me with tears in his eyes and asking me why I would go there when there was so many other things I could work on building...I said "cause it is in our blood, it's what we do"...

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If there is effective competition in the labor market, then workers' protection is to quit and get a different job. Unions tend to eliminate that option to stay in the same industry and location, and so in the end harm the workers. It takes I guess a little economic understanding to see this -- the principle is that you cannot for long get more pay than the value your labor input creates, and that the market is the only real test for what that number may be.

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If there is effective competition in the labor market, then workers' protection is to quit and get a different job. Unions tend to eliminate that option to stay in the same industry and location, and so in the end harm the workers. It takes I guess a little economic understanding to see this -- the principle is that you cannot for long get more pay than the value your labor input creates, and that the market is the only real test for what that number may be.

The coal mines are currently in big trouble. The cheap cost of natural gas has utility companies building new Gas Turbine Power Plants

and shutting down the coal fired power plants. The Gas Turbine Power Plant solution generates electrical power at higher profit margins.

The solution seems easy to me. Stop mining coal and start fracking! They are now hiring in North Dakota. - relocate- 3% unemployment rate!

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If there is effective competition in the labor market, then workers' protection is to quit and get a different job. Unions tend to eliminate that option to stay in the same industry and location, and so in the end harm the workers. It takes I guess a little economic understanding to see this -- the principle is that you cannot for long get more pay than the value your labor input creates, and that the market is the only real test for what that number may be.

I disagree.

I have been in some of the most backwoods places in the USA...this is all there is. If you are not a miner or work for something supplying the mines...you do not have a job...period. It's easy to say "just get a job doing something else"...the real world does not work that way...and Frank...I think you know this. it's coy to say "you don't have to work for them"...and is a total fantasy.

You can't always pack up and move from the hills to get a job at your local Mickey dee's or Wal Mart. Sometimes what it is...is all there is. Expecting fairness and decency is not asking too much.

In the last few years, there has been more mining accidents than in the last 50 years prior...why? because the UMW, in it's corruption, has allowed themselves to loose their teeth...more and more mining operations are now non-union and now...the safety regulations....and the inspectors that oversee them...have become compromised.

No worries though...thanks to the green movement and the lie that says natural gas is better than coal is becoming mainstream...yes, natural gas burned produces less co2 than coal....it doesn't produce acid rain...but what we don't ever talk about are the other down sides of natural gas...shall we talk hydraulic fracturing? Like the consequences of this "hidden" procedure is less environmentally disruptive than coal on an overall scale?

We can use co2 scrubbers on smokestacks...we can lessen acid rain...proven. It's not perfect, but it is a known issue we have been dealing with. Fracking is a huge unknown that we are jumping on with both feet and the negative side effects have not even began to come into the light.

I digress and will let the propaganda stay it's course. There is no reaching the inexperienced on this topic...all I can do is sit back and let the shiz fall apart and one day...step forward when the ground is shaking and your water is poisoned and say..."I told you so...perhaps you were not so clever after all"...

Edited by Jeremiah65
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I disagree.

I have been in some of the most backwoods places in the USA...this is all there is. If you are not a miner or work for something supplying the mines...you do not have a job...period. It's easy to say "just get a job doing something else"...the real world does not work that way...and Frank...I think you know this. it's coy to say "you don't have to work for them"...and is a total fantasy.

You can't always pack up and move from the hills to get a job at your local Mickey dee's or Wal Mart. Sometimes what it is...is all there is. Expecting fairness and decency is not asking too much.

In the last few years, there has been more mining accidents than in the last 50 years prior...why? because the UMW, in it's corruption, has allowed themselves to loose their teeth...more and more mining operations are now non-union and now...the safety regulations....and the inspectors that oversee them...have become compromised.

No worries though...thanks to the grren movement and the lie that says natural gas is better than coal is becoming mainstream...yes, natural gas burned produces less co2 than coal....it doesn't produce acid rain...but what we don't ever talk about are the other down sides of natural gas...shall we talk hydraulic fracturing? Like the consequences of this "hidden" procedure is less environmentally disruptive than coal on an overall scale? We can use co2 scrubbers on smokestacks...we can lessen acid rain...proven. It's not perfect, but it is a known issue we have been dealing with. Fracking is a huge unknown that we are jumping on with both feet and the negative side effects have not even began to come into the light.

Fracking it here to stay. Adapt.

You know, the buggy whip manufacturers went out of business also.

It's natural to resist change.

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Fracking it here to stay. Adapt.

You know, the buggy whip manufacturers went out of business also.

It's natural to resist change.

Yeah...I know. My granmother's estate is...well...in estate. We all got letters last year about whether to allow fracking on the lands or not. I was not in favor of it because there are natural springs all over the hills and wanted to make sure they would be safe....but I lost on the family vote.

Oh well....it's just my pointless Don Quixote moment...

donquixote_zps774926dc.jpg

I don't think they are telling the people any more than they want them to know. The game is rigged, the table is tilted. People hear what they want to hear and the facts be damned. I am not going to fight it out on here...I could very well be wrong, but I don't think so. If it was so "harmless and wonderful"...then why do they have so much to hide?

Oh well...you frackers win...for now.

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Oh well...you frackers win...for now.

Problem I see is that we all loose once their winning streak busts. And not because we will have no gas.

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Unions take credit for the improvement in work standards and safety, but I think the reality is that it was technology that made better workplaces and better pay possible, just as now technology is removing the need for such workers.

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Frank,

I can completely see your point, but I will disagree with my last breath. There is an underlying idea of altruism in corporate machinations...and thatt is as far from the truth as one can possibly get. Corporations will always take the cheapest path...be it in worker conditions, pay, safety...or even the disposal of materials. If a company could save $5.00 dollars by dumping waste in your back yard versus discarding it safely...they will save the $5.00. This is just the acceptable "norm" of business. "Do what you can get away with".

There is no room for compassion or philanthropy in the boardroom. We all know this and somehow accept this as being "business as usual".

No, there is some things that machinations cannot and will not ever replace. The problem is as the machines do manage to replace some functions...the demand for the irreplaceable human tasks grows...the pool for workers to fill those positions grows...so the value of that pool is lessened. Anytime you have an abundance of a resource, the value of that resource goes down...this is the mechanics of the system we so love to trumpet.

I said it earlier and I say it again. There is absolutely nothing wrong with collective bargaining. It is wisdom for those that can participate in it. When it gets to the point of strong armng and bullying...when corruption seeps into the mix...then you have a problem. New York city is dominated by trade unions and collective bargaining...that is not so bad...but...those unions and collective organizations are now controlled by the mob and are corrupt and as crooked as a dog's hind leg...they are no longer about doing good as much as they are about control and power.

Edited by Jeremiah65
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Unions take credit for the improvement in work standards and safety, but I think the reality is that it was technology that made better workplaces and better pay possible, just as now technology is removing the need for such workers.

You mean the expensive new technology that made the workplace safer was done out of the generosity of the bosses?

Maybe, after all well trained employees are worth more then new drones.

Making a 5 day week?

No chance.

Stopping child labour?

You're having a laugh.

A minimum wage?

Well as America still seems to be struggling with that idea I think we can both see that it didn't happen because of the willingness of the people in charge.

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What has generosity to do with it? You get better workers with good pay, but you can't afford to pay more than the labor is worth. More machines the labor becomes worth more and if you want the best employees you have to compete for it.

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What has generosity to do with it? You get better workers with good pay, but you can't afford to pay more than the labor is worth. More machines the labor becomes worth more and if you want the best employees you have to compete for it.

Exactly.

Machines are and were more expensive then men. You pay men a pittance and fire them when they get hurt. Until those pesky unions came along, no wonder businesses were so supportive of efforts to crack down on them.

You're right that unions got out of control and cost businesses dearly.

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Henry Ford did more for US working men than all the unions combined, and it was not because of generosity.

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Henry Ford did more for US working men than all the unions combined, and it was not because of generosity.

Henry Ford was a clever man who knew that if you paid peanuts you got monkeys.

He'd be all for a minimum wage, a nice low one at that, so he could pay slightly more then that and say "look how generous I am to my workers". He was a man who knew how to play politics. He was also all for those wacky Nazi chaps in Germany, so I'd have to agree with you that whatever he did it wasn't because of generosity.

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What has generosity to do with it? You get better workers with good pay, but you can't afford to pay more than the labor is worth. More machines the labor becomes worth more and if you want the best employees you have to compete for it.

Unions didn't start because the workers wanted more pay, it started because companies were treating labor quite literally like disposable resources. Research the meat packing, mining, construction, and textile industries. The death toll is staggering. My union has a lot of millionaires in it. It's called the Heat and Frost Insulators Union. It used to have a different name- Heat and Frost Asbestos workers. My co-workers would gladly trade that million dollars to get their dad or grandpa back. How many years did the industry know that asbestos was bad for you before it was finally outlawed?

The best thing about automation is that it is actually taking people out of harms way in many cases.

An interesting side note. Have you noticed that the high risk of fatality industries are also the one that hire the highest percentage of documented workers?

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