Why Would God Send Good People To Hell?

[docyabut2]

Matthew- Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire

So even if your angry in your own home your in the dangers of hell.

[Frank Merton]

Unless God makes some attempt to reach down to us and relate to us at our meagre level. We may not understand God completely but does an inability to totally understand God therefore make any attempt impossible? I believe not, but you are free to disagree.

Ah the Neoplatonists understood the problem with this and invented the Logos in an effort to solve it. The author of the Gospel of John apparently had heard of this and tried to incorporate this bit of philosophical name dropping in his Gospel, although only in a superficial way so we can't tell if he really understood. Nevertheless, it has been the Roman Catholic approach ever since, even though the problem is buried and not really discussed.

An earlier poster made the problem fairly clear, but I will put it from another angle -- how does one get from the infinite to the finite? Infinite means "endless," so an effort to send a message from endlessness would take forever. Now a special creation, a "logos," of a message that is not infinite might work, at least the neo-Platonists thought. Of course applying that to Jesus is problematic, especially in view of the later Trinity.

[Frank Merton]

Annihilationism, yes. Universalism, no.

Why not universalism? Surely God in his limitless love and power could arrange things that even the most evil sooner or later, maybe after many lives and many retributions and much learning suffering, find the way to salvation.

[Ogbin]

Etu Malku,

According to the Word of God the church age is not over untill the 70th week of daniel begins (The Tribulation), the time of Jacobs trouble.

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happend to Israel, untill the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, untill he (the church) be taken out of the way (which some believe is the rapture). And then shall that Wicked one (the anti-christ) be revealed,..."

Daniel 9:27 "For he (the anti-christ) shall confirm the covenant (a peace treaty) with many (between Israel and all the nations that hate Israel and want to see Israel destroyed) for one week:..." (1 week here stands for 7 years)

Revelation 6:1-2 "And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he (the anti-christ) that sat on him had a bow; (notice he does not have an arrow which means he comes with diplomacy and not war) and a crown (authority) was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

1 Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they (the world) shall say, peace and safety; then sudden destruction (the tribulation) cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child: and they (the non believers in Christ) shall not escape."

Revelation 6:3-4 "And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they ( the inhabitants of the earth) should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

edit: The age of grace is going to end soon and then the world will see once again the power and the wrath of God, which has not been seen in thousands of years.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Ogbin

[+Link of Hyrule]

Ah the Neoplatonists understood the problem with this and invented the Logos in an effort to solve it. The author of the Gospel of John apparently had heard of this and tried to incorporate this bit of philosophical name dropping in his Gospel, although only in a superficial way so we can't tell if he really understood. Nevertheless, it has been the Roman Catholic approach ever since, even though the problem is buried and not really discussed.

An earlier poster made the problem fairly clear, but I will put it from another angle -- how does one get from the infinite to the finite? Infinite means "endless," so an effort to send a message from endlessness would take forever. Now a special creation, a "logos," of a message that is not infinite might work, at least the neo-Platonists thought. Of course applying that to Jesus is problematic, especially in view of the later Trinity.

Surely an unlimited being, if it created us, has the ability to create us with the ability to understand something of its nature beyond shrugging and saying "it's impossible to understand". This is, of course, assuming that such a being wants us to understand. My belief is that such a being does want us to understand to the best of our limited ability.

Why not universalism? Surely God in his limitless love and power could arrange things that even the most evil sooner or later, maybe after many lives and many retributions and much learning suffering, find the way to salvation.

I was addressing the claim that there is "scriptural support" for both Universalism and Annihilationism. My comments were not addressing a wider context of the nature of God/s. There is no biblical support for Universalism! Whether you follow the Bible or believe something else about him/her/it/they is irrelevant when someone says there is "scriptural support" for something that has no scriptural support!

[Frank Merton]

You can say an infinite being can do anything, including breaking the rules of logic. I just don't buy into that any more than I buy into extreme skepticism or extreme materialism. It is the last gasp of the religionist trying to save his precious childhood indoctrination.

[Frank Merton]

I thought Jesus' purpose was to "safe all mankind." Surely He couldn't fail.

The problem with "proving" that the Bible says something contrary to good logic and fundamental goodness is to do nothing more than prove the Bible worthless. Surely that is not your objective. Of course I was raised in a philosophy of holding on to that which is good and rejecting that which is not.

[+Link of Hyrule]

You can say an infinite being can do anything, including breaking the rules of logic. I just don't buy into that any more than I buy into extreme skepticism or extreme materialism. It is the last gasp of the religionist trying to save his precious childhood indoctrination.

1- You have the Right not to accept a premise. I obviously see it differently. If a creator creates rules then such a being exists independently of those rules and therefore is not bound to them. But if you don't believe in such a being then that's your prerogative, and I'm not forcing you to believe it.

2- I was not brought up in a Christian family, pulling the child indoctrination card doesn't work for a "religionist" such as I!

[ambelamba]

I have news for you, the age of Christianity is over and already in its decline, Islam is quickly becoming the next death throw of Abrahamism.

That sounds a little 'Nutters' to me . . . can't we do what the Christian Romans did and rape anything that walks and murder anyone in your way, then just before dying get baptized and repent?

Since you are a Luciferian, can I ask a few things? What do you think about the idea that Satan was utterly defeated from the Day One and God is in complete control of everything down to atomic level? Which sounds fantastic to Christians but if you dig deeper this is a true cosmic horror that Lovecraft look like Pee Wee Herman.

And what about Satan's nature and the reason for rebellion? What if Satan was a hopelessly by-the-book moralist and idealist who simply couldn't endure the evil follies of God?

[+Link of Hyrule]

I thought Jesus' purpose was to "safe all mankind." Surely He couldn't fail.

Then you are mistaken. I thought Jesus' purpose was to make the path to salvation available to God's chosen people.

The problem with "proving" that the Bible says something contrary to good logic and fundamental goodness is to do nothing more than prove the Bible worthless. Surely that is not your objective. Of course I was raised in a philosophy of holding on to that which is good and rejecting that which is not.

If it's about a creator who created our world and the laws that govern it, I do not think it makes it worthless when that being breaks those rules to produce a miracle.

[Frank Merton]

1- You have the Right not to accept a premise. I obviously see it differently. If a creator creates rules then such a being exists independently of those rules and therefore is not bound to them. But if you don't believe in such a being then that's your prerogative, and I'm not forcing you to believe it.

2- I was not brought up in a Christian family, pulling the child indoctrination card doesn't work for a "religionist" such as I!

Oh but it does work; childhood indoctrination is the case most of the time but it is quite possible to indoctrinate adults.

My "choice" is based on fundamental principles of logic and ethics. These are two different but coordinated lines of thought.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Oh but it does work; childhood indoctrination is the case most of the time but it is quite possible to indoctrinate adults.

Ahh, so I'm making a last gasp attempt to save my precious adulthood indoctrination. Thanks

My "choice" is based on fundamental principles of logic and ethics. These are two different but coordinated lines of thought.

How you construct your world view is your choice, and your Right. I'm not telling you what to believe, just sharing why I believe (in this instance, why i don't find it illogical that God, if it exists, can break the rules of nature which it itself created) Edited September 24, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[ambelamba]

Then you are mistaken. I thought Jesus' purpose was to make the path to salvation available to God's chosen people.

Why does the bolded part gives me a chilling fear inside of me? Certainly not just because I am not one of them. I sense a massive injustice in there.

[Frank Merton]

That is part of the various memes (religions) that base themselves at least in part on the Bible. If you don't accept their message you are condemned. This is of course merely using human gullibility to control, although the control often is harmless, sometimes it is not.

I think I know the difference between indoctrination and reasoned conviction. The main difference is belief as opposed to opinion. The second is holding onto positions when they are shown to be morally wrong or intellectually untenable.

[Frank Merton]

This business of, "I'm just sharing my beliefs" strikes me as disingenuous. You are preaching, I am preaching. Let us be honest about that.

[SpiritWriter]

Why would God send good unbelievers to Hell? I suppose I'm talking about the Christian God, as I think I know more about Christianity than other religions. It just seems to me cruel and unusual punishment for any God to condemn someone who has led a good and loving life to eternal damnation just because they do not believe in this particular Deity.

Many good people are honest and sincere atheists or agnostics, many good people are born into cultures that worship different Gods. Are all these condemned to Hell?

**hugs**

hell....

what the hell is hell?

I think we can and do condemn ourselves in many ways. Hell is one of them, but what is hell?

If you are honest with yourself and you truly don't believe in God then there is really nothing you can do about that, you've analyzed it to the best of your ability and you are making the best reasonable choice for yourself. If you are scared of hell, you can pretend to believe in God, but if God is real, wouldn't he know you are pretending? There are many Christians who sit in church week after week not really believing in God, do you think perhaps these people will also go to hell, even if they are good and moral people? Does just saying "I am a Christian" save us from hell?

All of this seems like weird teaching.

I have heard accounts of people traveling to heaven/hell in dreams, outer-body experiences and near death experiences. I have also heard about hell on earth. Little children are subjected to hell here on earth and many of them believe in Jesus, they didn't do anything wrong to deserve the hell they are living in, yet, there they are.

I think that the question you ask is not adequate to be answered here on this website. It can only be answered in your own heart.

I personally believe in hell. I presume that in many cases it is not the case of a soul being tormented forever, but a stage we go through. Maybe some of us are saved from it forever, maybe some of us have already been there, maybe some of us will still be going there, maybe we will visit there briefly. I think the possibilities are really endless. One way to limit our chances of going to hell is to do our best here on earth. This is a message for those who are hurting others or themselves, but you aren't talking about those people. Your talking about good and morally sensitive atheists and agnostics...

Did you know The Bible was written for Christians? I think it is more likely for (those that call themselves) Christians to end up in hell then anyone else. Why would anyone be bound to something they never bound themselves to? This is not to say non-Christians wouldn't go to hell, but in these cases I would suppose there was a time in their lives, or many times where God, or the subconscious perhaps, instructed them to walk a certain way and they refused to do so. This holds spiritual development back, I think hell comes before heaven, to get to heaven (maybe even as a state of mind) you may have to let go of some things, or change some things. Furthermore, those who know that hell is real, that know that God is real, but still continue to do evil, real evil, in full knowledge of the consequences, shame on them, shame on them indeed.

Anyway, I say that what your pondering is still part of the 'unknown' and your question is unanswerable except for in opinion form. I think its good to pose the question though. So thanks for posting!

I think there's a lot more to it than just belief or non-belief.

Edited September 24, 2013 by SpiritWriter

[+Link of Hyrule]

Why does the bolded part gives me a chilling fear inside of me? Certainly not just because I am not one of them. I sense a massive injustice in there.

How do you know you're not one of them? Until I converted as an adult I would have said I wasn't one of them either. Life is a long time (usually) so something may happen to change your view. Or it might change mine. Who knows, in twenty years imagine coming back on UM and you're telling everyone about your conversion, I'm telling everyone how I became a Buddhist and rejected Christ. At this point in time it seems inconceivable, but as noted, if you'd have told me 15 years ago that I'd be posting online as a committed Bible-believing Christian, I'd have laughed in your face and told you that's crazy talk.

Would and you rather God force you and everyone else to believe? Or do you revel in your individuality? If God forced everyone to believe we'd be mindless zombies, and life would be very boring. Imagine UM - question: so what do you think of atheists? Answer: what's an atheist? Praise God! Amen!

Needless to say, I do not see God as carrying out a "massive injustice".

[Frank Merton]

Well I was raised a Buddhist, went to school in the States and almost fell into the carefully designed trap that is Jehovah's Witnesses until I went back to Vietnam and my parents deprogrammed me with common sense. Then of course I became a Communist, and helped them as much as possible, mainly to push out the foreigners (even though I admire Americans they were foreigners) and now am a Communist who supports free markets and socialism in a pragmatic mix -- whatever works, and have fallen back into Buddhism, although more American-style Buddhism than Vietnam-style, which contains too much Taoist superstition for me.

[+Link of Hyrule]

That is part of the various memes (religions) that base themselves at least in part on the Bible. If you don't accept their message you are condemned. This is of course merely using human gullibility to control, although the control often is harmless, sometimes it is not.

If there are consequences for actions then that is simply how things work. Cause and effect, not control and dominance.

I think I know the difference between indoctrination and reasoned conviction. The main difference is belief as opposed to opinion. The second is holding onto positions when they are shown to be morally wrong or intellectually untenable.

It sounds like you're using the word "opinion" as a convenient synonym for belief. But if it helps, my opinion is that the Bible is true.

Who decides whether something is morally wrong or intellectually untenable?

This business of, "I'm just sharing my beliefs" strikes me as disingenuous. You are preaching, I am preaching. Let us be honest about that.

In my understanding, preaching involves one person attempting to convince someone else that they are wrong about an issue that cannot be factually ascertained, and the truth is something other than what they hold true, followed by a sustained effort to get that person to change. I'm not telling you you're wrong, I'm not trying to tell you that you must believe what I believe, and I'm not trying to change your outlook. Therefore I do not see what I write as preaching, simply sharing.

Are you trying to convert me (or at least deconvert me from Christianity)? If yes, you're preaching. I'm not trying to convert you to Christ.

[SpiritWriter]

Preaching can be seen negatively or positively. When a preacher is doing a good job at church or if someone is telling a righteous message that inspires and has a truth that rings through it which moves others, this is effective preaching. I think for this website its more defined the way android says. The way Frank defines it, it would seem we are all preachers merely by making posts. And perhaps we are, so Amen.

[Etu Malku]

Proselytizing

1. convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
   

Preaching

1. to make a speech about religion in a church or other public place : to deliver a sermon
   

[Bens]

Hell = The common grave of mankind. Bible says " The dead are conscious of nothing at all" Babylonian false teaching. Soul that doesn't die and fiery torment.

[EllJay]

Why Would God Send Good People To Hell?

Because he can/for fun/or if you suck.

Nah, I think he is a good guy after all.

[+joc]

Because he can/for fun/or if you suck.

Nah, I think he is a good guy after all.

That is funny!

[Bluefinger]

Why does the bolded part gives me a chilling fear inside of me? Certainly not just because I am not one of them. I sense a massive injustice in there.

I find Calvinist predestination to be incorrect, but nevertheless interesting.

People focus on predestination because they are concerned about themselves. But people who understand why the doctrine exist know that God is the center focus.

If I say that my works or my intellect led me to choose Jesus, then I get the credit and deserve the reward. Calvinism insists that God became a man on my behalf and did for all men what I couldn't even do for myself. In this aspect, God's works and intellect saved me and therefore I get no credit whatsoever. The easiest of conclusions would be that either God predestined me (hypercalvinism) or that God took over in my heart (degree of influence may vary.)

However, I don't think Calvinism is biblically sound. Ephesians 1:1-11 is famous for being quoted to support predestination. But verse 12 flips that on its head.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:11, 12 ESV)

Other passages that support this:

“I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, (John 17:6, 20 ESV)

I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. (Romans 11:1-5 ESV)

In these passages, it is evident that the writers of the NT believed that a small remnant of Jews were predestined to follow Jesus just as God had chosen 7,000 Jews to not follow after Baal during the days of Elijah. This small group of elected Jews were supposed to spread Jesus' teachings and make disciples of all nations. According to the book of Revelation, chapter 7, this has already occurred.

In Revelation 7, God sealed 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel to have the seal of God on their foreheads. Revelation 14 says that they were chosen as firstfruits from among mankind and they follow the Lamb (Jesus) wherever He goes. In chapter 7, we see the results of this sealing: A great multitude from every nation, language, tribe, and kingdom are made white by the blood of the Lamb and praise God. This is historical. By the time the Diocletian persecution broke out, Christianity had spread throughout the entire empire and was even found in high political positions.

So predestination is a historical event in which a few people were chosen by God and empowered to preach the Gospel to all nations, not a universal doctrine that determines the fate of every living soul.

In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:13, 14 ESV)

Edited January 12, 2014 by Bluefinger