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Big Bad Voodoo

Origin of Slavs is Balkan

24 posts in this topic

http://www.turkicworld.org/turkic/60_Genetics/Klyosov2010DNK-GenealogyEn.htm

This is a short summary of Anatole thesis:

1) R1a and R1b are both from Altaï

2) 12.000 years ago R1a migrated and arrived in Balkans

3) Between 6.000 and 8.000 years ago R1b migrated westward from Altaï and arrived in the north of Black Sea. Cultures of Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya

4) From here, 2 R1b migrations: the first one to Balkans and Italy and brings R1b-ht35, the second one to Caucasus, Near East, North Africa and Iberia. Then R1b-ht15 spreads in occidental Europe with Bell Beaker culture.

5) R1a migrated to North Europe, then eastward to Steppe between 5.000 or 4.000 years ago. Culture of Andronovo then R1a spread to Iran and India.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26108.html

http://www.academia.edu/4222630/DNA_Genealogy_and_Linguistics._Ancient_Europe

Big Bad Voodoo

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What an arcane subject of study. The methodology might actually be more interesting than the thesis.

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What an arcane subject of study. The methodology might actually be more interesting than the thesis.

Can you explained so that we, rest of mortals, can understand you?

Big Bad Voodoo

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I have a pet theory that the Indo-Europeans or someone near them that they borrowed it from invented the wheel, or maybe just first used it to build wagons and attach animals for carrying things, and this is the reason their language is so widespread, including Slavs.

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http://www.turkicwor...GenealogyEn.htm

This is a short summary of Anatole thesis:

1) R1a and R1b are both from Altaï

2) 12.000 years ago R1a migrated and arrived in Balkans

3) Between 6.000 and 8.000 years ago R1b migrated westward from Altaï and arrived in the north of Black Sea. Cultures of Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya

4) From here, 2 R1b migrations: the first one to Balkans and Italy and brings R1b-ht35, the second one to Caucasus, Near East, North Africa and Iberia. Then R1b-ht15 spreads in occidental Europe with Bell Beaker culture.

5) R1a migrated to North Europe, then eastward to Steppe between 5.000 or 4.000 years ago. Culture of Andronovo then R1a spread to Iran and India.

http://www.eupedia.c...hp/t-26108.html

http://www.academia...._Ancient_Europe

Big Bad Voodoo

You might not want to rely too heavily on the above, either as to location or timeframe, as R1a appears to originate in the general area south of the Taklimakan Desert in Mongolia while R1b appears to originate from Western Asia. Neither of which is the Altai region.

Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe during the Last 9000 Years (2012)

http://www.scirp.org/journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=21698

and

A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe (2011)

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v19/n1/pdf/ejhg2010146a.pdf

cormac

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You might not want to rely too heavily on the above, either as to location or timeframe, as R1a appears to originate in the general area south of the Taklimakan Desert in Mongolia while R1b appears to originate from Western Asia. Neither of which is the Altai region.

Haplogroup R1a, Its Subclades and Branches in Europe during the Last 9000 Years (2012)

http://www.scirp.org...x?PaperID=21698

and

A major Y-chromosome haplogroup R1b Holocene era founder effect in Central and Western Europe (2011)

http://www.nature.co...jhg2010146a.pdf

cormac

Okay so we originate from Mongolia. That explains my love for Mongols. :w00t:

Maybe rest of his theory is right. I will try to understand your provided links then I will respond if I will have anything smart to said.

Big Bad Voodoo

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I have a pet theory that the Indo-Europeans or someone near them that they borrowed it from invented the wheel, or maybe just first used it to build wagons and attach animals for carrying things, and this is the reason their language is so widespread, including Slavs.

No I think they were first to start riding horses. Again link with Mongols.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited by Big Bad Voodoo

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No I think they were first to start riding horses. Again link with Mongols.

Big Bad Voodoo

Mongols came much later and Indo-Europeans came from much further west in South-Central Asia. The Mongol language is not related to Indo-European. I base the idea of wagons on archeology. I think it probably was a group in or near Mongolia that first domesticated horses to ride them.

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Okay so we originate from Mongolia. That explains my love for Mongols. :w00t:

Maybe rest of his theory is right. I will try to understand your provided links then I will respond if I will have anything smart to said.

Big Bad Voodoo

That would only include R1a and not its descendant haplogroups such as R1a1, R1a2, etc. Nor would it include the parent group of R1a which is R1, the latter of which likely originates in the same general area as R1b.

cormac

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...I think we should be extremely hesitant to so closely link genetics and language as many here seem (relatively) happy to do. There is no certifiable one to one causal link between the two and confusing that seems only to lead to conclusions that are questionable.

--Jaylemurph

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...I think we should be extremely hesitant to so closely link genetics and language as many here seem (relatively) happy to do. There is no certifiable one to one causal link between the two and confusing that seems only to lead to conclusions that are questionable.

--Jaylemurph

I've been talking about language and ethnicity, others have been talking about genes. I don't think anyone has linked them.

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http://www.turkicwor...GenealogyEn.htm

This is a short summary of Anatole thesis:

1) R1a and R1b are both from Altaï

2) 12.000 years ago R1a migrated and arrived in Balkans

3) Between 6.000 and 8.000 years ago R1b migrated westward from Altaï and arrived in the north of Black Sea. Cultures of Samara, Khvalynsk and Yamnaya

4) From here, 2 R1b migrations: the first one to Balkans and Italy and brings R1b-ht35, the second one to Caucasus, Near East, North Africa and Iberia. Then R1b-ht15 spreads in occidental Europe with Bell Beaker culture.

5) R1a migrated to North Europe, then eastward to Steppe between 5.000 or 4.000 years ago. Culture of Andronovo then R1a spread to Iran and India.

http://www.eupedia.c...hp/t-26108.html

http://www.academia...._Ancient_Europe

Big Bad Voodoo

So, we are Hyperboreans Siberians, as this inheritor of R1a1 has always known suspected...

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So, we are Hyperboreans Siberians, as this inheritor of R1a1 has always known suspected...

See Post #6.

cormac

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See Post #6.

cormac

Yes, I read the links, and I note that they, and other material, does not generally concern itself with population movements much further back than about 11,000 years ago. What I already knew, and is in the very interesting PDF contained in your first link, is that R1a is thought to have originated in central Asia 20,000 years ago. The term central Asia is rather vague, the same as "thought" and can easily be stretched to include Southern Siberia, that area between the Ural and Altai mountains that contains the vast majority of the modern Siberian population. Looking at a map it can be seen that area can be described just as much as being the Southerly part of North Asia as the Northerly part of central Asia, and includes Kazakhstan, that is seen as being part of central Asia.

Edited by Kaa-Tzik

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Yes, I read the links, and I note that they, and other material, does not generally concern itself with population movements much further back than about 11,000 years ago. What I already knew, and is in the very interesting PDF contained in your first link, is that R1a is thought to have originated in central Asia 20,000 years ago. The term central Asia is rather vague, the same as "thought" and can easily be stretched to include Southern Siberia, that area between the Ural and Altai mountains that contains the vast majority of the modern Siberian population. Looking at a map it can be seen that area can be described just as much as being the Southerly part of North Asia as the Northerly part of central Asia, and includes Kazakhstan, that is seen as being part of central Asia.

The part describing the migration of R1a isn't as vague, since it says:

At some point, apparently between 20 and 15 thousand ybp, the bearers of R1a began a migration to the west, through Tibet and over the Himalayas. They arrived in Hindustan no later than 12,000 ybp. They apparently continued their way across the Iranian Plateau, along East Anatolia and the rest of Asia Minor between 10,000 and 9000 ybp.

'Through Tibet and over the Himalayas' isn't the same as 'between the Ural and Altai mountains'.

cormac

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The part describing the migration of R1a isn't as vague, since it says:

'Through Tibet and over the Himalayas' isn't the same as 'between the Ural and Altai mountains'.

cormac

Yet it it says this, and I quote

The preceding article in this journal (Klyosov & Rozhanskii, 2012) provided data in support of the theory that haplogroup R1a arose in Central Asia around 20,000 years before the pre-sent (ybp), and described the prior history of the haplogroup, which is directly related to the appearance of Europeoids (Cau-casoids) ~58,000 years ago.

I do not dispute the technicalities of DNA analysis, but I think there is a degree of conjecture in being that precise in saying where anything originates from. To go back further takes us away, presumably, from Asia anyway. I decided to choose a certain timeframe and general area for my purpose, which Voodoo will no doubt understand... Normally my starting position is the Kurgan, though that of course is not to say that is the origin of us all, only a phase, as you know.

The purpose of my original post was not to take a micrometer to this, but to have a gentle dig in the ribs. I don't need a debate in intricate detail...

Edited by Kaa-Tzik

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Yet it it says this, and I quote

I do not dispute the technicalities of DNA analysis, but I think there is a degree of conjecture in being that precise in saying where anything originates from. To go back further takes us away, presumably, from Asia anyway. I decided to choose a certain timeframe and general area for my purpose, which Voodoo will no doubt understand... Normally my starting position is the Kurgan, though that of course is not to say that is the origin of us all, only a phase, as you know.

The purpose of my original post was not to take a micrometer to this, but to have a gentle dig in the ribs. I don't need a debate in intricate detail...

That's where you and I differ as I don't see what I posted as being very 'precise' since the area in question is still rather large. But implying that Central Asia = Siberia is much like claiming that Central Mexico is part of the United States. I wouldn't agree with that either, were one to make the claim.

Based on past experience with Voodoo, don't be so sure of that. But he tries. :tu:

cormac

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Kaa-tzik and cormac!

I dont hide that Im below amateur in the case of Geneticism. But if you ever like to discuss economy, history, philosophy, psychology Im there for you. Im also benefical when we discuss Criminology but that I intened to avoid for personal matters. I wish I could understand more about Geneticism but time is factor.

Btw Im fan of Marija Gimbutas which tells a lot about my view in general about IE. Atleast she gave ,imho, most logic scenario.

Big Bad Voodoo

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Kaa-tzik and cormac!

I dont hide that Im below amateur in the case of Geneticism. But if you ever like to discuss economy, history, philosophy, psychology Im there for you. Im also benefical when we discuss Criminology but that I intened to avoid for personal matters. I wish I could understand more about Geneticism but time is factor.

Btw Im fan of Marija Gimbutas which tells a lot about my view in general about IE. Atleast she gave ,imho, most logic scenario.

Big Bad Voodoo

I wouldn't say 'below amateur' and there's certainly nothing wrong with not understanding genetics. But the point is you try, which is more than can be said about several here who go for the first fringe piece of BS they can find in order to promote their particular fantasy.

cormac

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cormac,

I did try. Numerous time. But I failed to grasp basics. I guess some fields isnt for everyone. I have atleast 100 questions raised about basics. And when I ask one of them and get answer on that particular question result isnt my understanding of theme-but new 5 raised questions. And so on. So its like fan to me. Realy hard to grasp. No doubt that if I put more time into it that I would get the picture. But simply, you have to put food on table and pursuit things which brings you money. Sad but true.

Big Bad Voodoo

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Kaa-tzik and cormac!

I dont hide that Im below amateur in the case of Geneticism. But if you ever like to discuss economy, history, philosophy, psychology Im there for you. Im also benefical when we discuss Criminology but that I intened to avoid for personal matters. I wish I could understand more about Geneticism but time is factor.

Btw Im fan of Marija Gimbutas which tells a lot about my view in general about IE. Atleast she gave ,imho, most logic scenario.

Big Bad Voodoo

I'm flattered you include me in a reply to an expert. I'm certainly not, just an interested amuteur. I concur about Marija Gimbutas, though I would move the general area more to the South and East, to include the Kuban and Anatolia, and I don't agree with her "goddess" theory.

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...and Anatolia

Well seems to me that you and cormac agree very well.

Big Bad Voodoo

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Well seems to me that you and cormac agree very well.

Big Bad Voodoo

I include Anatolia as it borders the Black Sea. I think it would be wrong to not include Anatolia in what I see not so much as "Kurgan", though that is a useful and familiar name, but as a Black Sea group. Rather like the North Sea cultural group, though I think that phrase is no longer used, in English anyway. I know I am rather sitting on the fence here between the Kurgan hypothesis and the Anatolian one, but I think the areas can be linked, either across the Black Sea or from around the shores from the Kuban. I see no "killer" facts to say one or the other is right or wrong and suspect the reality, which we may never know, is rather less definable than nice diagrams on a map suggest, as is the definition of Central Asia, which can include Southern Siberia ,as the area is not constrained by a country having a name ending in "stan". Parts of Kazakhstan are further North than some parts of Southern Siberia. There, two posts for the price of one :)

Edited by Kaa-Tzik

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