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and then

If the GOP Shut Down Govt Over ACA

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This is my fear. If the Republicans in the House push this issue now and the government actually shuts down I see no benefit for anyone but the left. I think it will put the Speaker's gavel back in Pelosi's hand. In a way it will be fascinating - like watching a car wreck in slow motion - but I fear that neither the US nor world economies can survive the spending Obama and the Dems will do if completely unopposed.

What say you?

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So far a shutdown has always hurt the party that caused it, this time it will be no different. Maybe we will be lucky and people will start distinguishing between Republicans and Teaparty in the process and it will be not so dire.

In any case why do you think the DEMs are so cocky about this? Because Boehner let himself be maneuvered in a corner where he can only come out loosing.

Obamacare will not be defunded, the best he can hope for is that it will be delayed a few months. At a horrendous cost for the Republicans.

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The Democrats seem destined to run the Congress for a few years. This may enable the Republicans to clean up their act regarding women and immigrants and gays and so on. It may also help them purge the quaint notions about government limits and deficits (not that these are wrong --that I wouldn't be so bold as to claim -- but that they don't fit the times).

Of course the Democrats have their own set of idiocies, as Pelosi seems to represent, and the public will eventually swing back the other way so the Democrats can do their own purging. Then the cleaned-up Republicans will come back into power and when in power go back to the old ways, and so the wheel turns.

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A new conventional wisdom has congealed among political and media elites in Washington DC: conservative Republicans are insane because they want to defund Obamacare.

On the surface, this idea has merit: after all, Democrats control the Senate, so a defund-Obamacare bill would be highly unlikely to pass it. And it would certainly be vetoed by the President, and conservatives certainly don’t have the votes to override the President’s veto.

There’s another problem, which is that when conservatives threaten to use the debt limit as leverage, they’re really playing with matches on top of a powder keg, and that’s not good.

With that being said, I think Republicans should keep pushing to defund Obamacare, and here’s why:

1. Obamacare Is Really Bad Policy

It really is! The US healthcare system has lots of problems, but a lack of centralized control or regulation (by government or insurers) is certainly not one of them. Politicians’ jobs is to end bad policies! So they should do that!

I can’t write about healthcare without plugging this really essential article,How American Healthcare Killed My Father. It really is the best and first thing anyone should read about US healthcare. The author, David Goldhill, a Democrat, wrote it before Obamacare, and you’ll see that Obamacare solves none of the problems of the US system that it lays out (except the problem of the uninsured, but only by making the system worse for everyone).

2. The Democrats Brought It On Themselves

The United States of America has a system built on divided government and checks and balances. This is why America has had a long-standing tradition of passing far-reaching reforms on a bipartisan basis. Barack Obama and the Democrats (understandably from their perspective) decided that universal healthcare was too important to respect this tradition. But the reason this tradition exists is because if you don’t pass important reforms on a bipartisan basis, you risk being obstructed by the other party at every turn. That’s obviously been a mixed blessing, but it’s how the system works. The Democrats knew what the score was, or else they were misinformed about how American politics works. When progressives tried to defund the Iraq War, that was entirely within their prerogative. Conservative Republicans have a duty to oppose Obamacare at every turn.

3. Politics Is Plagued By Status Quo Bias

If we were designing these programs from scratch, I don’t think anyone would build Social Security, or Medicare, or the national defense budget, in the way they are now. But because they are the way they are now it’s politically very difficult to change them. To some extent, it’s the American system that does this, because it was explicitly built to obstruct change. But to a greater extent, it’s just human nature: voters prefer one bird in the hand to two in the bush, and when they’ve come to rely on a program, they will be very wary to any change of it. Again, mixed blessing, but that’s the way life is.

One day, hopefully soon, Republicans will regain the White House and the Senate. When that day comes, the worst thing for American healthcare would be if Obamacare was seen as a feature of the status quo. Obamacare is not the status quo. It is a radical departure from the status quo (and the fact that the status quo wasn’t so great to begin with doesn’t change that). But to make that reality politically salient, conservatives have to keep the fight alive. The political and media class have to be reminded, over and over again, that Obamacare is deeply unpopular with the American people and a striking departure from the American way, so that a popular mandate to repeal Obamacare and replace it with a better system exists when Republicans take control of government again.

So the conservatives are absolutely right to push the Republican Party to continue to try to defund Obamacare.

Link: http://www.forbes.com/sites/pascalemmanuelgobry/2013/09/19/the-3-reasons-why-republicans-should-keep-pushing-to-defund-obamacare/

And here are the stories of how Obamacare is affected real people all over the US:

There is a reason the same organizations that pushed for this law are now hoping for change: Obamacare is far too complex. Businesses with 50 or more full-time employees will have to comply with the employer mandate. Businesses with part-time workers will have to calculate whether they meet the threshold of having 50 "full time equivalents" based on the law's interpretation of "full time," which is 30 hours per week.

This is a marked departure from the traditional 40-hour work week established under the Fair Labor Standards Act that has been a hallmark of America's workplaces for 75 years. The architects of the health care law chose to ignore this well-established federal standard and craft their own rules.

Unfortunately, employees will be hurt the most by the mandate. Many businesses that employ full-time workers cannot afford benefits on top of the wages they pay, so they will be forced to either lay workers off or cut their hours.

And this isn't us speculating on what will happen -- we've heard in direct testimony that this is already occurring.

On July 23, 2013, we held a joint hearing in which we heard from a witness responsible for implementing this mandate for a large company that employs 10,000 people Jamie Richardson, a vice president with the White Castle restaurant chain.

White Castle has offered their employees health insurance since before the Great Depression, and Mr. Richardson testified that this law and the uncertainty it creates is harming his company's employees, its ability to offer health insurance, and its capability to create jobs.

He said that White Castle's growth was directly and negatively impacted by this law. Richardson said, "I would like to tell you we've continued to open more restaurants in more neighborhoods, providing more jobs, and serving more customers. I'd like to tell you that, but I can't. In fact, White Castle's growth has halted."

These stories are the new normal. Michigan Subway franchisee Ken Adams is now hiring more part-time workers and letting go of full-time workers to avoid the higher fines. Tennessee Burger King franchisee Mike Clayton was forced to close his doors after 39 years because of the law.

American workers are hurting because of a law so complex that, even after three years of planning, the administration has admitted it still needs more time for a successful implementation.

Link: http://washingtonexaminer.com/obamacare-train-wreck-is-crashing-employment-too/article/2533624

For the vast majority of Americans, premium prices will be higher in the individual exchange than what they're currently paying for employer-sponsored benefits, according to a National Journal analysis of new coverage and cost data. Adding even more out-of-pocket expenses to consumers' monthly insurance bills is a swell in deductibles under the Affordable Care Act.

Health law proponents have excused the rate hikes by saying the prices in the exchange won't apply to the millions receiving coverage from their employers. But that's only if employers continue to offer that coverage--something that's looking increasingly uncertain. Already, UPS, for example, cited Obamacare as its reason for nixing spousal coverage. And while a Kaiser Family Foundation report found that 49 percent of the U.S. population now receives employer-sponsored coverage, more companies are debating whether they will continue to be in the business of providing such benefits at all.

Link: http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/obama-s-affordable-care-act-looking-a-bit-unaffordable-20130829

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I agree. A case in point is Obamacare. I personally am not fond of many parts of it. But what annoys me most is the Republican's efforts to sabotage what little there is in it that is good in an effort to make it fail. If it is a terrible system then let the American public see and experience it and then we can change it and the blame will be on the creators. But, now it seems that every little thing about it is being sabotaged by the Republicans. Whatever can be damaged, destroyed, delayed, or removed is being done so by the Republicans. So now if it does fail it can easily be argued that the Republicans did it. The debt ceiling also irks me. They never fix the budget problem but they use the issue to stir up a mess and try to push agendas. The end result is my retirement stocks take a hit and we repeat it again in a couple of years. The sad thing is I agree with a lot of the core values of the Republican platform, but the way they have acted to try and force those values instead of convince has soured me to them.

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Pretty much every advanced country in the world except the US has a national health care system. You need it because people have no basis for comparing health care delivery and will spend whatever needed to stay healthy, even if it bankrupts them, so competitive models which are good when selling most things don't work when selling health care. The ideological opposition to this form of "socialism" is counter to reality.

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Personally I view Health care as a form of National Defence. A plague caused by a population who refuse to seek medical attention because they cannot afford it is just as damaging, if not more so to the US populace than terrorist attacks. But I suppose eliminating disease takes a secondary stand to making money off the disease here in the U.S.

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The US needs to have some type of single payer healthcare system for all Americans. Obamacare is just a attempt to make the fat cats in Wall Street richer.

Our healthcare system needs to be overhauled. But, Obamacare is not the answer. It's just making things worse.

One thing that's really bad about Medicaid/Medicare (government insurance) is right now, a lot of hospitals and doctors, won't take it. Their worried about getting paid. So that's one thing a single payer system would do, is make the hospitals take it.

Anyway, my thoughts at any rate....

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That's another thing republicans don't seem to realize. Many of the people who don't want Obamacare would prefer a single payer system (socialized medicine).

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That's another thing republicans don't seem to realize. Many of the people who don't want Obamacare would prefer a single payer system (socialized medicine).

Exactly! :tu:

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That's another thing republicans don't seem to realize. Many of the people who don't want Obamacare would prefer a single payer system (socialized medicine).

I dare say probably Obama would to and he is trying to get there using what is politically possible.

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The US needs to have some type of single payer healthcare system for all Americans. Obamacare is just a attempt to make the fat cats in Wall Street richer.

Our healthcare system needs to be overhauled. But, Obamacare is not the answer. It's just making things worse.

One thing that's really bad about Medicaid/Medicare (government insurance) is right now, a lot of hospitals and doctors, won't take it. Their worried about getting paid. So that's one thing a single payer system would do, is make the hospitals take it.

Anyway, my thoughts at any rate....

But the doctors and other practitioners aren't forced to do ANYTHING they don't choose to - at least not for long. They worked very hard for the education and paid their dues in other ways and now someone comes along and tells them the rules just changed. We tell YOU what we think you need to earn to be "fair". So the docs start leaving in droves. New students of the highest caliber go into engineering or business and the profession declines. Research declines. The wealthy do private contracts with hospitals and doctors for cash and they are taken care of while the rest of us receive second rate care -equally. Any way you cut it this law is a monstrosity and we are going to suffer because of it. But they won't.

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Doctors and nurses and the rest of the apparatus are paid employees now with but a few exceptions. I don't get your point.

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Doctors and nurses and the rest of the apparatus are paid employees now with but a few exceptions. I don't get your point.

The effect of this law is that reimbursements to hospitals will sink like a stone - it's already beginning. Payments from Insurance companies are partially based on rates that the government pays for care. When the govt decides to pay 40% less for a procedure then insurance companies will follow closely. Decreased reimbursements leads to loss of income for hospitals and that has to be recouped in some way. Cost cutting through layoffs and reduced payments to physicians. It has already begun and will snowball over the next 5 years - watch it happen...

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What I thought was funny was that my employer, Intel (the people that make computer processors), sent me a letter saying that according to Federal law they are required to inform me that I have the right to join an exchange, and other rights. But then they basically say how I'd be a fool to leave the insurance I have, as they will not be paying into any exchange accounts. So I'd loose the financial Benefit of the thousands and thousands of dollars they pay directly to the insurance to keep my rates low. Plus they outline how the benefits of said exchange plans will be a fraction of what the company offered plans are.

But, they said that the choice is mine and I can make a (financially) bad decision if I really want to.

Who in their right mind is going to pass on free funds to pay health insurance, have to manage all that beauracracy themselves, and.... get less benefit out of whatever plan they decide to chose?

Maybe part time people could find a use for the ACA exchanges? Or maybe (failing) small business owners?

I think the Republicans forcing a showdown on the ACA is a good thing. With so many people being negative to it, I don't see how confronting it can hurt the Republicans. Come midterm elections, they will have the high ground regarding if the ACA appears as screwed up as it seems it could be.

It is like if people were 75% against private gun ownership, then fighting against a pro-gun law would be a no brainer.

I also agree with the assessment about Bi-Partisanship not being done with Obamacare. It was rammed down the US citizens throats. Even Pelosi said we have to pass the Bill to know what was in it. (She's an idiot, BTW)

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They need something more creative like suggesting that we default on China's loans, because as they taught U.S. with the Edward Snowden affair, the Republicans clearly view China as an enemy in disguise.

So who makes their enemy their banker, but admitted fools?

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It may be that medical compensation has gotten out of line with reality and has to be curbed: this rather obviously is the case in the States with hospital charges and diagnostic services and even ordinary drugs. Americans spend much more for health care that has poorer outcomes. (Although nowadays that also applies to American education, its military, its social services, its legal procedures, its criminal prosecution and incarceration, and a lot of other things where there is no foreign competition.

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The effect of this law is that reimbursements to hospitals will sink like a stone - it's already beginning. Payments from Insurance companies are partially based on rates that the government pays for care. When the govt decides to pay 40% less for a procedure then insurance companies will follow closely. Decreased reimbursements leads to loss of income for hospitals and that has to be recouped in some way. Cost cutting through layoffs and reduced payments to physicians. It has already begun and will snowball over the next 5 years - watch it happen...

The other effect is that hospitals will not be sitting on unpaid bills from people declaring bankruptcy. That will balance out.

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Madness....it is all around us....and some of you wonder why I continue to hope for cataclysm...it's because so many people are lunatics and the system is so twisted...only a massive reset and/or reboot is going to work. More people than not are uneducated and the passionately defend 'whatever my daddy would do"....

Propping up a "for profit sytem" is not "for the good of the people"...it is good for a few stockholders and CEO's....sorry if that offends you uneducated philosophy....but it is a fact. This IS crony capitalism. Prop up the insurance companies with forced buyership and the securities company laugh all the way to their yachts and offshore accounts.

Anyone that does not see passed the emotional side of things...well....God bless ya cause you need all the help you can get.

People are goiong to die...now it's just going to be a social economic thing....yay! you have healthcare....oops, sorry....you cannot afford a place to live or food now...sorry you lost your job...

Madness....absolute madness and if more people could get passed their emotional reactions...we could see the cronyism for what it is....but...sadly...most of you do not.

DO NOT FORGET ever.....this was originally proposed by the Repugs that are now fighting it....they supported this for a reason for a very long time....be thee not deceived, there is no difference between the two anymore....only in your dumbed down and distracted brain....the repubs give to the rich and the dems give to the poor...and in there somewhere the idiots have missed the point....they are giving "our" money away....some might deserve it and others do not...but they are fleecing you....they both take your money and spend more than they take....

would some of you please wake up to the lies and bullsh!t you are being force fed?

Edited by Jeremiah65
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....the repubs give to the rich and the dems give to the poor...and in there somewhere the idiots have missed the point....they are giving "our" money away....some might deserve it and others do not...but they are fleecing you....they both take your money and spend more than they take....

What is funny is that the Republicans give to the Rich and the rich get richer. But, the Democrats give to the Poor and the poor remain poor. Actually the situation of the poor continues to get worse. Yet they (the poor) keep voting for the same people over and over. You'd think if that money can make the rich richer, it would also make the poor richer, or at least help problems with education, with resources, with living conditions and with the growing population of the poor, but somehow that does not happen.

If I was a Democrat I'd stop voting for people who have failed to help just about everyone they've ever claimed to protect. They're (National level Democrats) just as greedy and power hungery and rich as the Republicans, they simply are buying different votes with their Promises and Advertisements.

Edited by DieChecker
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What is funny is that the Republicans give to the Rich and the rich get richer. But, the Democrats give to the Poor and the poor remain poor. Actually the situation of the poor continues to get worse. Yet they (the poor) keep voting for the same people over and over. You'd think if that money can make the rich richer, it would also make the poor richer, or at least help problems with education, with resources, with living conditions and with the growing population of the poor, but somehow that does not happen.

If I was a Democrat I'd stop voting for people who have failed to help just about everyone they've ever claimed to protect. They're (National level Democrats) just as greedy and power hungery and rich as the Republicans, they simply are buying different votes with their Promises and Advertisements.

116 million voters (as in those who actually bother to vote) seem to be a lot of donkeys.

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The other effect is that hospitals will not be sitting on unpaid bills from people declaring bankruptcy. That will balance out.

Even if true, you have exchanged a high functioning system ( technologically and efficiency) with something much less. So you have balanced books but crappy, inconsistent and delayed care for most. Edited by and then

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Even if true, you have exchanged a high functioning system ( technologically and efficiency) with something much less. So you have balanced books but crappy, inconsistent and delayed care for most.

We have not, we just have changed how it is funded. The system will not change. The hospitals will still be there. The insurance companies will still be there (ready to get a whole slew of new customers) and the doctors will still be there.

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We have not, we just have changed how it is funded. The system will not change. The hospitals will still be there. The insurance companies will still be there (ready to get a whole slew of new customers) and the doctors will still be there.

You are kidding yourself Q. I know a few of those docs and early retirement is all the rage these days. Medicine is in many ways a family tradition among them - or has been - but now the best and brightest will be looking to more stable earning potential. I have no doubt there will still be practitioners though the numbers of truly skilled specialists will never be enough. Medicine will go from being considered a "profession" to being seen as a technical specialty. There simply is no way the system is going to maintain even status quo when this law takes hold. And I'm not so sure those health insurers will be as happy to take on the new customers as you think. Their rates will be controlled at some point I believe. The government will start telling THEM what they can charge and when that happens they will just fold their tents and go into another way of profiting with fewer headaches. The effect of the law initially is going to be to attempt to drive down the earning capacity in healthcare. Anyone who doesn't expect real, organized resistance to that is kidding themselves.

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You are kidding yourself Q. I know a few of those docs and early retirement is all the rage these days. Medicine is in many ways a family tradition among them - or has been - but now the best and brightest will be looking to more stable earning potential. I have no doubt there will still be practitioners though the numbers of truly skilled specialists will never be enough. Medicine will go from being considered a "profession" to being seen as a technical specialty. There simply is no way the system is going to maintain even status quo when this law takes hold. And I'm not so sure those health insurers will be as happy to take on the new customers as you think. Their rates will be controlled at some point I believe. The government will start telling THEM what they can charge and when that happens they will just fold their tents and go into another way of profiting with fewer headaches. The effect of the law initially is going to be to attempt to drive down the earning capacity in healthcare. Anyone who doesn't expect real, organized resistance to that is kidding themselves.

And why do you think that medicine does not have the highest earning potential where there is universal health insurance?

Because save in former communist countries doctors are among the highest earners anywhere. In most countries with free healthcare they also have free university education meaning that they don't start their professional life with half a million in debt.

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