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Ben Masada

Reconciliation versus Universal Salvation

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Reconciliation versus Universal Salvation

Reconciliation is not the same as universal salvation. IMHO, reconciliation is individual and salvation is universal. The best text to explain reconciliation is Isaiah 1:18,19 about getting things right with God so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow.

But for universal salvation we need three texts: The first is in Genesis 8:21,22 when God promised Noah never to allow all Mankind be destroyed again by a catastrophe of the size of the Flood.

The second text is in Jeremiah 31:35-37 when Jeremiah wrote that as long as the natural laws function properly, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever. Therefore, no universal catastrophe would ever happen again.

And the third text is in John 4:22 when Jesus said that salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews he said and not from one among the Jews.

Ben

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I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. My take on "universal salvation" is that everyone, somehow or another and perhaps after long purging, ends up in Heaven. That would make sense if there is an infinitely loving, omnipotent God.

Of course that is a Western way of thinking. To me salvation is not an issue and there is no such thing as sin. There are good acts and bad acts, measured by the harm they do, and there are consequences to these acts, although sometimes we "get away" with bad acts out of chance. When we die, I am open minded as to what happens: I think the most likely is that the process we think of as our mind goes on, maybe to rebirth or maybe to something else. I don't buy the idea that mind is entirely brain and dies with the brain; it has too many non-material aspects.

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The second text is in Jeremiah 31:35-37 when Jeremiah wrote that as long as the natural laws function properly, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever. Therefore, no universal catastrophe would ever happen again.

There is a very good argument that this particular example became defunct upon the discovery the Moon is not a source of light, but only a reflector. So, upon that day of discovery the people of Israel ceased to be the People of the Lord.

Edited by Leonardo

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I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. My take on "universal salvation" is that everyone, somehow or another and perhaps after long purging, ends up in Heaven. That would make sense if there is an infinitely loving, omnipotent God.

Of course that is a Western way of thinking. To me salvation is not an issue and there is no such thing as sin. There are good acts and bad acts, measured by the harm they do, and there are consequences to these acts, although sometimes we "get away" with bad acts out of chance. When we die, I am open minded as to what happens: I think the most likely is that the process we think of as our mind goes on, maybe to rebirth or maybe to something else. I don't buy the idea that mind is entirely brain and dies with the brain; it has too many non-material aspects.

Yes, as I can see you somehow somewhere missed the point of what I am talking about. There is nothing to do with ending up in heaven but with living on earth. That's what "Salvation comes from the Jews" Jesus meant in John 4:22. That as long as Israel as a People remains before the Lord forever, no other universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood will ever hit Mankind again. That's a Theology that needs a lot of concentration to understand.

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Yes, as I can see you somehow somewhere missed the point of what I am talking about. There is nothing to do with ending up in heaven but with living on earth. That's what "Salvation comes from the Jews" Jesus meant in John 4:22. That as long as Israel as a People remains before the Lord forever, no other universal catastrophe of the size of the Flood will ever hit Mankind again. That's a Theology that needs a lot of concentration to understand.

It seems a myth-based eschatology. Where are people after they die before the earth gets whatever has to be done?

I am aware of Jehovah's Witnesses, who teach something of that sort, but they are very judgmental and only allow other JW's into their paradise.

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There is a very good argument that this particular example became defunct upon the discovery the Moon is not a source of light, but only a reflector. So, upon that day of discovery the people of Israel ceased to be the People of the Lord.

If you want me to comment upon your post as a joke I could but I prefer to wait for a Biblical quote to confirm your assertion of how Israel ceased to be the People of the Lord.

Edited by Ben Masada

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It seems a myth-based eschatology. Where are people after they die before the earth gets whatever has to be done?

I am aware of Jehovah's Witnesses, who teach something of that sort, but they are very judgmental and only allow other JW's into their paradise.

Yes, it does seem to convey an eschatological myth but it can be understood if you follow the sequence:

1 - Genesis 8:21,22. "...as long as day and night shall not cease..."Jeremiah read this text and wrote:

2 - Jeremiah 31:35-37. "...as long as the sun lights the day and the moon and the stars by night, Israel will remain as a People before the Lord forever." Then,

3 - John 4:22. "Salvation comes from the Jews." That's how Jesus understood the first two texts.

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I dunno what you are talking about.

There is an oft-told story about the present Dali Lama who believed in accord with Tibetan belief that the moon was the second light in the sky, but who abandoned that when he was shown the truth, saying we must be ready to abandon even the words of the Buddha (although to my knowledge the Buddha never said any such thing) if reason and truth show us it is wrong.

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If you want me to comment upon your post as a joke I could but I prefer to wait for a Biblical quote to confirm your assertion of how Israel ceased to be the People of the Lord.

I assure you, what I posted was no joke, nor did it have any humourous implication.

Here is the first part of the scripture you linked to (Jeremiah 31:35)

Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

As I said, the moon is not a light source but the passage implies it is - equal to the stars (if not also the sun). As the moon is not a light source, the "natural Law" that was believed to be 'true' at the time the passage was written, is actually not true. Thus, the people of Israel are not "People of the Lord", except in the belief of those who take this passage at face value as 'truth' but ignore "natural Law".

Edited by Leonardo

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My take is that all humans are saved from original/universal sin (for christians this is via the sacrifice of christ but is applicable to every human being.) However we continue to be individual sinners and the bible explains the individual steps we must take to be forgiven this sin. eg admission, contrition, restitution and working not to repeat our sins.

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When we do something wrong (which I define as we hurt others), we should fix it as much as possible and then get on with life. Worrying about sin and being guilty achieves nothing.

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I assure you, what I posted was no joke, nor did it have any humourous implication.

Here is the first part of the scripture you linked to (Jeremiah 31:35)

As I said, the moon is not a light source but the passage implies it is - equal to the stars (if not also the sun). As the moon is not a light source, the "natural Law" that was believed to be 'true' at the time the passage was written, is actually not true. Thus, the people of Israel are not "People of the Lord", except in the belief of those who take this passage at face value as 'truth' but ignore "natural Law".

Your quote rather confirms the fact that Israel is God's chosen People that will remain as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws function properly.

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My take is that all humans are saved from original/universal sin (for christians this is via the sacrifice of christ but is applicable to every human being.) However we continue to be individual sinners and the bible explains the individual steps we must take to be forgiven this sin. eg admission, contrition, restitution and working not to repeat our sins.

Only that the Christian doctrine that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross effected reconciliation between God and man is contradicted by Jeremiah 31:30 where it says that no one can die for the sins of another.

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When we do something wrong (which I define as we hurt others), we should fix it as much as possible and then get on with life. Worrying about sin and being guilty achieves nothing.

Very logical thinking. I agree with you.

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Only that the Christian doctrine that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross effected reconciliation between God and man is contradicted by Jeremiah 31:30 where it says that no one can die for the sins of another.

I would say that aplies to a persons individual sins.

Humans, in theologicla terms, inherited original sin from adam and eve It is not their ownsin.

jesus died to negate that original sin, and so did not die for anothers individual sins. We are accountable for them. But this of course may be one of those critical difernces between jewish and christian theological interpretation of the same scriptures..

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I find the idea that we inherit sin because Adam sinned patently absurd, almost as absurd as the idea that a human sacrifice (Jesus on the Cross) removes the curse. We inherit the color of our eyes but are individually responsible for our actions. The other stuff is magic -- primitive magic at that.

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I find the idea that we inherit sin because Adam sinned patently absurd, almost as absurd as the idea that a human sacrifice (Jesus on the Cross) removes the curse. We inherit the color of our eyes but are individually responsible for our actions. The other stuff is magic -- primitive magic at that.

Christian theology is of course much more complex than this. But it is about ongoing consequence. Humans today (in bilical terms) live as we do, as a consequence of the choices of adam and eve. Pain, suffering, death, etc; are the wages of original sin. They would not exist now, if adam and eve had chosen god in the garden because edenic conditions would have continued until today..

The promise of the bible is that god will restore us to that original state of oneness with him. Every one of us. (and in principle has already done so via christs sacrifice)

BUT to access the reward as individuals we must also meet the requirements of our personal salvation as outlined in the bible by christ. Be penitent, ask forgiveness, make restitution for damage done and make every effort not to repeat the sin.

Geneis is a story which attempts to explain why the human condition is as it is and not something much more idylic and idelaistic (as indeed it could be ) The bible as a whole offers hope that this idylic and idealistic condition can be re-attained by humanity. (something i completely agree with even in humanist terms)

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I would say that aplies to a persons individual sins.

Humans, in theologicla terms, inherited original sin from adam and eve It is not their ownsin.

jesus died to negate that original sin, and so did not die for anothers individual sins. We are accountable for them. But this of course may be one of those critical difernces between jewish and christian theological interpretation of the same scriptures..

Yes, it all depends on the religious preconceived notions of the interpreter. For instance, the idea of original sin is pure balderdash in Jewish Theology. There was no sin in Adam and Eve. One does not sin by acquiring knowledge. Sin it would be to refuse to know. Knowledge is the beginning of wisdom which only a fool rejects.

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Christian theology is of course much more complex than this. But it is about ongoing consequence. Humans today (in bilical terms) live as we do, as a consequence of the choices of adam and eve. Pain, suffering, death, etc; are the wages of original sin. They would not exist now, if adam and eve had chosen god in the garden because edenic conditions would have continued until today..

The promise of the bible is that god will restore us to that original state of oneness with him. Every one of us. (and in principle has already done so via christs sacrifice)

BUT to access the reward as individuals we must also meet the requirements of our personal salvation as outlined in the bible by christ. Be penitent, ask forgiveness, make restitution for damage done and make every effort not to repeat the sin.

Geneis is a story which attempts to explain why the human condition is as it is and not something much more idylic and idelaistic (as indeed it could be ) The bible as a whole offers hope that this idylic and idealistic condition can be re-attained by humanity. (something i completely agree with even in humanist terms)

One dies not for having sinned but for having been born. Death is only the third step of life: Birth, life and death.

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Yes, it all depends on the religious preconceived notions of the interpreter. For instance, the idea of original sin is pure balderdash in Jewish Theology. There was no sin in Adam and Eve. One does not sin by acquiring knowledge. Sin it would be to refuse to know. Knowledge is the beginning of wisdom which only a fool rejects.

Then, for a jew, what is the morality tale inherent in genesis? (why was it written) What did adam and eve do wrong? Why was god angry and adam and eve fearful of god; and why did he change the conditions under which he created adam and eve?

Is not disobedience of god a sin, in judaic terms?

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One dies not for having sinned but for having been born. Death is only the third step of life: Birth, life and death.

Christianity offers a fourth stage; resurrection and eternal life; which helps explain its "universal" popular appeal among all sorts of different peoples, for 2000 years. Very clever marketing, or perhaps a truth longed for by almost every human being..

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Eternity is a very abstract concept. Many people use the term without really thinking deeply. The problem with eternal punishment might have been the result of general human stupidity.

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Then, for a jew, what is the morality tale inherent in genesis? (why was it written) What did adam and eve do wrong? Why was god angry and adam and eve fearful of god; and why did he change the conditions under which he created adam and eve? Is not disobedience of god a sin, in judaic terms?

As for Jews are concerned, the morality of Genesis is allegorical in terms to describe the nature of man, the doctrines of Judaism and the origin of the universe. That's the reason why Genesis was written. Adam and Eve did no wrong. Their thing that Christians teach as disobedience was rather a catch-22. A commandment which was supposed to be obeyed by doing the opposite. They would have sinned if they had never understood the nature of the divine command. God was not angry as a man is. The attribution of that emotional feeling to God was only a pious reference to divine the command. Hence the fear of man which is interpreted as the beginning of knowledge according to Proverbs 1:7. Now with regards to your question about God's change of the conditions under which He created Adam and Eve, no change was effected by God but by men themselves or naturally as men got in the wrong or right place at the wrong or right time. In Judaic terms sin is the transgression of the Law. Man does not transgress against God but against the Law. The reference to God is only in the mind of the pious.

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Christianity offers a fourth stage; resurrection and eternal life; which helps explain its "universal" popular appeal among all sorts of different peoples, for 2000 years. Very clever marketing, or perhaps a truth longed for by almost every human being..

I am glad you said, "Christianity offers a fourth stage..." Yes, resurrection is indeed Christian albeit not originally but copied from the Greeks. Jews do not believe in bodily resurrection. Since Christianity presents Jesus as a Jew, Christians get into trouble to explain the contradiction without having to promote Replacement Theology.

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Eternity is a very abstract concept. Many people use the term without really thinking deeply. The problem with eternal punishment might have been the result of general human stupidity.

Not only "eternal punishment" but also eternal life in heaven or paradise only serves to rob people of commonsense. Worse still, the promise of reward in the afterlife is akin to treats given to dogs to perform something to please man. Such believers are unable to understand that according to Genesis 3:22 the first man was banished from the Garden of Eden to prevent them from reaching after the tree of life after they acquired knowledge by eating of the tree of knowledge.

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