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Was Mohenjo Daro built by Joctan's sons?

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The amazing archaeological site of Mohenjo Daro is known for it's uniqueness and mystery. A current news article says a people called the Asurs built this place. This name is intersting because a loose link to the history in the Bible can be made. They are said to be a people ousted from their positions, or ex - gods. They also claim to be from Illyria, or ancient Greece. If you research the genealogy in the historian Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews." There is a tradition that the sons of Joctan, settled in the area of the Cophen river (Antiquties Book I, Chapter 6) ,now called the Kabul river. Tracing this river you will find it connects to the Indus and thus to that regions great civilizations, including Mohenjo Daro!? Joctan a son of Heber, had a son named Asermoth, perhaps a source for Asur?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/293640-technically-advanced-ancient-tribe-built-indus-valley-civilization/?photo=2

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I may be mistaken, but doesn't Mohenjo Daro predate Judaism by some considerable margin?

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Totally laughable.

Will give4 a write up after work.

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I may be mistaken, but doesn't Mohenjo Daro predate Judaism by some considerable margin?

Yeah, by about 2300 years.

cormac

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I may be mistaken, but doesn't Mohenjo Daro predate Judaism by some considerable margin?

Does it predate Heber though? Heber is very old, near Noah's time.

Heber is the one who was missing when God changed their speech at the Tower of Babel and namesake of the Hebrews later.

Eber (עֵבֶר, ISO 259-3 ʕebr, Standard Hebrew Éver, Tiberian Hebrew ʻĒḇer) is an ancestor of the Israelites, according to the "Table of Nations" in Genesis 10-11 and 1 Chronicles 1. He was a great-grandson of Noah's son Shem and the father of Peleg born when Eber was 34 years old, and of Joktan.

In Jewish tradition, Eber, the great-grandson of Shem, refused to help with the building of the Tower of Babel, so his language was not confused when it was abandoned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eber

Heber is the father of Joktan but also an Asher is mentioned from another: In some translations of the New Testament, he is referred to once as Heber ([Luke 3:35] ...the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Heber, the son of Salah...); however, he should not be confused with the Heber of the Old Testament (different Hebrew spelling חבר), grandson of Asher ([Genesis 46:17].

Also Aristotle does say the Jewish priests came from India.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The amazing archaeological site of Mohenjo Daro is known for it's uniqueness and mystery. A current news article says a people called the Asurs built this place. This name is intersting because a loose link to the history in the Bible can be made. They are said to be a people ousted from their positions, or ex - gods. They also claim to be from Illyria, or ancient Greece. If you research the genealogy in the historian Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews." There is a tradition that the sons of Joctan, settled in the area of the Cophen river (Antiquties Book I, Chapter 6) ,now called the Kabul river. Tracing this river you will find it connects to the Indus and thus to that regions great civilizations, including Mohenjo Daro!? Joctan a son of Heber, had a son named Asermoth, perhaps a source for Asur?

http://www.theepocht...zation/?photo=2

What I found online says...

The son of Joctan, Asermoth, was named Hazarmevath.

Joctan (Joktan/Yoktan) is said to be the ancient father of all the Arab tribes/nations of the Arabian Peninsula.

Also says that he lived on the Khabur River, not the Kabul River.

Your source of Josephus could still be right since he did write extensive histories of peoples and nations, but the Arabic traditions can be shown to predate Josephus and there is a lot more histories (Bias though they may be) then this one account by Joe. And, to me Josephus seems to have made up quite a bit of what he wrote. Especially in his later years. Just my opinion however.

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I may be mistaken, but doesn't Mohenjo Daro predate Judaism by some considerable margin?

Well, not the Judaism practiced by the magic, time-travelling Jews.

--Jaylemurph

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Sorry, I made my point in post #5, which was - seems some of you think they were practising Judaism in Heber/Eber's day.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Just found an interesting reference to India on the Joktan Wiki page:

This Yanuf died; and in his stead, in the days of Ragu, one from the land of India reigned, whose name was Sasen, and who built the city of Saba. And all the kings who reigned over that country were called Sabaeans, after the name of the city. Then again Phar'an reigned over the children of Saphir [Ophir], and built the city of Saphir with stones of gold; and that is the land of Sarania, and because of these stones of gold, they say that the mountains of that country and the stones thereof are all of gold. Then the children of Lebensa of the country of India, made king over them, one called Bahlul, who built the city of Bahlu. Then Ragu died in his 289th year."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joktan

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I don't know what's so "mysterious" about the site except that the writing hasn't been figured out. It looks Dravidian, not Semitic, which is of course what you would expect. The culture apparently preceded the coming into India of the Indo-Europen (proto-Sanscrit) peoples from the Northwest.

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Why should we treat the Hebrew genealogy written in their scriptures as having any historical merit whatsoever?

After all, was it not compiled sometime in the 6th century BCE - thousands of years after the alleged ancestors are said to have lived? And this from oral tradition, as no more ancient written genealogy has, to the best of my knowledge, been recovered or even mentioned in other ancient literature.

Edited by Leonardo
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Why should we treat the Hebrew genealogy written in their scriptures as having any historical merit whatsoever?

After all, was it not compiled sometime in the 6th century BCE - thousands of years after the alleged ancestors are said to have lived? And this from oral tradition, as no more ancient written genealogy has, to the best of my knowledge, been recovered or even mentioned in other ancient literature.

I have Josephus Antiquity of the Jews but because I have books from one end of my house to the other I just can't locate it right this minute to check (which reminds me I need to clean lol) - but I recall he tells of the ancient traditions of them and how they were written down or kept in some form, when I find it I'll let you know what he actually said.

Also, maybe we are just not recognising them in written form elsewhere, or more likely, don't want to... http://en.wikipedia....erian_King_List

Jushur (also transliterated Jucur, Gushur, Ngushur, Gishur, etc.; earlier read as Gaur), according to the Sumerian king list, was the first king of the first dynasty of Kish. It claims he reigned in Sumer for 1,200 years as the first post-diluvian king. Noah? There weren't many really old men around after the flood, apparently - Google this for more info.

Ibranum 1 year

Abraham? of the Gutians - who had arrived in the plains of Shinar...

Edited by The Puzzler

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I don't know what's so "mysterious" about the site except that the writing hasn't been figured out. It looks Dravidian, not Semitic, which is of course what you would expect. The culture apparently preceded the coming into India of the Indo-Europen (proto-Sanscrit) peoples from the Northwest.

The swastika found there is also present in the Vinca culture...bit mysterious imo.

The end of Harappa also seems to coincide with the eruption of Thera and also the mentioned flood in Sumerian King Lists - there is some evidence (according to the Wiki page) the IVC traded with Crete and Egypt.

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OK, I found it, also reminds me that the Jews have been so persecuted in all times that it's a wonder they are left at all, let alone any ancient writings they had, how many times has Jerusalem itself been razed tot he ground, do you think any books or works are actually left?

He says: "I observe that a considerable number of persons, influenced by the malicious calumnies of certain individuals, discredit the statements in my history concerning our antiquity, and adduce as proof of the comparative modernity of our race the fact that it has not been thought worthy of mention by the best known Greek historians, I consider it my duty to devote a brief treatise to all these points in order at once to convict our detractors of malignity and deliberate falsehood, to correct the ignorance of others, and to instruct all who desire to know the truth concerning the antiquity of our race."

Let me find the part I was going to, but I'll leave you to ponder that for a moment.

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I don't see where what Josephus says is going to be at all relevant. He has no possibility of direct knowledge and even any myths he recounts are way too late to have credence.

The presence of a swastika is news to me, but they are common enough everywhere to not imply much.

That there might have been some contact with Mesopotamia seems likely. As I understand it the society decayed rather naturally from overuse of the land. Thera doesn't strike me as having anything to do with it.

Josephus made a big deal of the antiquity. That doesn't make it true.

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You, yourself Leo even said this same thing:

" Surely then, it is absurd that the Greeks should be so conceited as to think themselves the sole possessors of a knowledge of antiquity and the only accurate reporters of it's history. Anyone can easily discover from the historians themselves that their writings have no basis of sure knowledge, but merely present the facts as conjectured by individual authors. More often than not they confute each other in their works, not hesitating to give the most contradictory accounts of the same events"

Josephus also was a victim of the Roman takeover of his own native land. If anything was left I'm pretty sure they took care of it, meaning obliterated it from our history.

He says: "But that our forefathers took no less, not to say even greater, care than the nations I have mentioned (being Egypt and Babylonians) in the keeping of their records - a task which is assigned to their chief priests and prophets - and that down to our times these records have been, and may I venture to say so, will continue to be, preserved with scrupulous accuracy, I will now endeavour to briefly demonstrate."

I'll continue to retype more if anyone wants me to.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Does it predate Heber though? Heber is very old, near Noah's time.

Getting past the fact there is no evidence Noah actually existed, the Great Flood of Biblical fame allegedly occurred in the 3rd millenium BC. Mohenjo Daro is still older.

cormac

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The Jews trace their history to Hebrews who lived in Palestine before the Exile, but this is doubtful at best. Some of the stories may come from that time, but obviously the really "early" stuff came out of Persia.

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The Jews trace their history to Hebrews who lived in Palestine before the Exile, but this is doubtful at best. Some of the stories may come from that time, but obviously the really "early" stuff came out of Persia.

Seems your signature quote is quite true - you dunno.

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Getting past the fact there is no evidence Noah actually existed, the Great Flood of Biblical fame allegedly occurred in the 3rd millenium BC. Mohenjo Daro is still older.

cormac

We have no real idea when the Flood of the Bible occurred really - we place it into time so that it seems likely but really 'we dunno'.

But I actually don't think that Mohenjo Daro was built by them, again who knows - but was really questioning what Judaism had to do with anything since Judaism occurred way after Joktan's time.

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He has no possibility of direct knowledge

Josephus says: "I have given a translation of our sacred books; being a priest and of priestly ancestry, I am well versed in the philosophy of those writings"

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We have no real idea when the Flood of the Bible occurred really - we place it into time so that it seems likely but really 'we dunno'.

But I actually don't think that Mohenjo Daro was built by them, again who knows - but was really questioning what Judaism had to do with anything since Judaism occurred way after Joktan's time.

We do know that there was never a Global Flood and we also know that the Hebrews/Jews had their own calendar from which they dated Creation, the Flood, etc. This calendar claims to start at 3761/3760 BC which gives us a general timeframe Biblical "events" allegedly happened. Yet there is no evidence that said events actually occurred.

cormac

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Actually Josephus knows when the Great Flood was - "2262 years after the birth of Adam; the date is recorded in the sacred books, it being the custom of that age to note with minute care the birth and death of illustrious men."

The book I have is concised, it then states {Josephus then shows how he came to the figure of 2262 years}

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Actually Josephus knows when the Great Flood was - "2262 years after the birth of Adam; the date is recorded in the sacred books, it being the custom of that age to note with minute care the birth and death of illustrious men."

The book I have is concised, it then states {Josephus then shows how he came to the figure of 2262 years}

I know how he came to the figure, he used the chronologies as written in the Bible. I've done it myself years ago, just to get an idea of timeframe. It places most of the significant events in the 3rd millenium BC.

cormac

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We do know that there was never a Global Flood and we also know that the Hebrews/Jews had their own calendar from which they dated Creation, the Flood, etc. This calendar claims to start at 3761/3760 BC which gives us a general timeframe Biblical "events" allegedly happened. Yet there is no evidence that said events actually occurred.

cormac

Josephus says from his time it has been 5000 years since creation, which is much longer than 3761BC from his time.

"The things narrated in the Sacred Scriptures are, however, innumerable, seeing that they embrace the history of five thousand years"

Moses - according to Josephus and his timeframe - "was born 2000 years ago" - which is way longer than what we assign him, placing Abraham into that time instead.

Edited by The Puzzler

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