Was Mohenjo Daro built by Joctan's sons?

[3.0]

I may be mistaken, but doesn't Mohenjo Daro predate Judaism by some considerable margin?

Yes, which is consistent with my speculation. Asermoth and his brothers would predate Abraham. The city would probably have been built by their descendants, after asermoth founded his colony there.

[3.0]

Getting past the fact there is no evidence Noah actually existed, the Great Flood of Biblical fame allegedly occurred in the 3rd millenium BC. Mohenjo Daro is still older.

cormac

Your assuming we have the right date for the Flood. If there are gaps in the Biblical genealogy, the dates prior to say Abraham could be stretched backwards in time.

[The_Spartan]

Yes, which is consistent with my speculation. Asermoth and his brothers would predate Abraham. The city would probably have been built by their descendants, after asermoth founded his colony there.

Just out of curiosity..asking -

On what basis do you say that Asermoth founded his colony there?

Is it only speculation or is it backed by any ancient records?

If you are thinking about the books that Puzzler quoted, they are all apocrypha.

and for one example the chronology of the book - Cave of treasures is entirely a huge mistake.

So the question is...is your thinking based on archaeological evidence?

leaving aside lego linguistics.

[3.0]

I tend to equate india with magog

Magog settled in Scythia, according to Josephus, around the Black Sea and north of there.

[3.0]

Just out of curiosity..asking -

On what basis do you say that Asermoth founded his colony there?

Is it only speculation or is it backed by any ancient records?

If you are thinking about the books that Puzzler quoted, they are all apocrypha.

and for one example the chronology of the book - Cave of treasures is entirely a huge mistake.

So the question is...is your thinking based on archaeological evidence?

leaving aside lego linguistics.

Again my source is Josephus stating in Book 1, Chapter 6 of Antiquities.; Joctan, and his sons settled the Cophen river and nearby Asia. I speculate that Asermoth might be the source for the name Asur, thus he may have founded that people, who then built Mohejo Daro. Perhaps there will be evidence in the future, if they dig deep enough.

Edited October 1, 2013 by 3.0

[The_Spartan]

Again my source is Josephus stating in Book 1, Chapter 6 of Antiquities.; Joctan, and his sons settled the Cophen river and nearby Asia. I speculate that Asermoth might be the source for the name Asur, thus he may have founded that people, who then built Mohejo Daro. Perhaps there will be evidence in the future, if they dig deep enough.

Note the Point!

[cormac mac airt]

Your assuming we have the right date for the Flood. If there are gaps in the Biblical genealogy, the dates prior to say Abraham could be stretched backwards in time.

The only assumption I make is that the Jews have a better understanding of their own alleged chronology than anyone else. And whether one uses the Masoretic Text or the Septuagint, dates of which vary by up to 600 years, it still would place the alleged Great Flood in the 3rd Millenium BC. Not that it would make any difference as there is no evidence in Mesopotamia of such a flood occurring.

cormac

Edited October 1, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[3.0]

The only assumption I make is that the Jews have a better understanding of their own alleged chronology than anyone else. And whether one uses the Masoretic Text or the Septuagint, dates of which vary by up to 600 years, it still would place the alleged Great Flood in the 3rd Millenium BC. Not that it would make any difference as there is no evidence in Mesopotamia of such a flood occurring.

cormac

The reason it isn't found might be because it's further back in time. A comparison of genealogy in 1 Paralipomemon (Chronicles) and Jesus genealogy in Luke will show the possibility of stretching back in time.

Luke 3;35 - 36 ----------------1 Paralipomenon (Chronicles) 1:17-19

Phaleg-------------------------- Phaleg and brother Jectan were discussing

Heber -------------------------- Heber

Sale------------------------------Sale

Cainan---------------------------???????????

Arphaxad----------------------- Arphaxad

Sem------------------------------Sem

You see that St. Luke inserts another name in the genealogy list! If there are other as well, we can stretch back in time the Biblical history and genealogy.

Edited October 2, 2013 by 3.0

[cormac mac airt]

The reason it isn't found might be because it's further back in time. A comparison of genealogy in 1 Paralipomemon (Chronicles) and Jesus genealogy in Luke will show the possibility of stretching back in time.

Luke 3;35 - 36 ----------------1 Paralipomenon (Chronicles) 1:17-19

Phaleg-------------------------- Phaleg and brother Jectan were discussing

Heber -------------------------- Heber

Sale------------------------------Sale

Cainan---------------------------???????????

Arphaxad----------------------- Arphaxad

Sem------------------------------Sem

You see that St. Luke inserts another name in the genealogy list! If there are other as well, we can stretch back in time the Biblical history and genealogy.

Any chronology that is derived from the sources of the Bible whether from the Masoretic Text, the Codex Vaticanus or the Samaritan Pentateuch will limit a person to a period no further back than the 3rd millenium BC for the Great Flood. One could quibble over which text is right, specifically, but these are the texts that the Jews used (and in the case of the Masoretic Text still use) in varying degrees and one is limited by what these texts say.

None of which has anything to do with Mohenjo Daro.

cormac

Edited October 2, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[kmt_sesh]

It's Mrs...you're welcome.

LOL Can I call you Old Timer now, Puzz? Or would I be risking bodily injury?

[+DieChecker]

Oh boy. That would make me an Old Timer too. (looks at "joined" date)

[The Puzzler]

LOL Can I call you Old Timer now, Puzz? Or would I be risking bodily injury?

You know I don't take no crap from no-one Mr Mummy and moderators don't scare me either...

[The Puzzler]

Oh boy. That would make me an Old Timer too. (looks at "joined" date)

You're a Mr VERY Old Timer....

[Frank Merton]

You know I don't take no crap from no-one Mr Mummy and moderators don't scare me either...

Then don't post crap, like Josephus as an authority on pre-exilic Hebrews.

[The Puzzler]

Then don't post crap, like Josephus as an authority on pre-exilic Hebrews.

If I ignore you will you go away?

I gave Josephus own words originally as an answer to Leo asking what made him an authority on it, when I said I had a book and recalled him saying why he felt he was an authority on it. I only posted Josephus own words, which I have every right to post.

Edited October 3, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Leonardo]

The reason it isn't found might be because it's further back in time. A comparison of genealogy in 1 Paralipomemon (Chronicles) and Jesus genealogy in Luke will show the possibility of stretching back in time.

Luke 3;35 - 36 ----------------1 Paralipomenon (Chronicles) 1:17-19

Phaleg-------------------------- Phaleg and brother Jectan were discussing

Heber -------------------------- Heber

Sale------------------------------Sale

Cainan---------------------------???????????

Arphaxad----------------------- Arphaxad

Sem------------------------------Sem

You see that St. Luke inserts another name in the genealogy list! If there are other as well, we can stretch back in time the Biblical history and genealogy.

As an aside to this discussion, and I do not wish to derail it in any way, but seeing as you put store in a list of personages mentioned in ancient scripture, do you also treat the Sumerian King List as being reliable in it's dating of reigns?

[The Puzzler]

As an aside to this discussion, and I do not wish to derail it in any way, but seeing as you put store in a list of personages mentioned in ancient scripture, do you also treat the Sumerian King List as being reliable in it's dating of reigns?

Please do derail it Leo, please...as entertaining as it is.

[The Puzzler]

Aristotle believed that the Jews came from India, where he said that they were known as the Kalani

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juive

I personally wonder why Aristotle would believe this, in his time, as that is before any Jews are recorded as going to India - he was intelligent to say the least and knew much ancient history, did he just pull this belief out of his hat?

[granpa]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1774-aristotle-in-jewish-legend

[Skithia]

I cant see any reason why the Indus Valley Civilization couldn't have developed all by itself - in situ so to speak. From what I have read it looks like the cities contemporaneous with Mohenjo Daro were abandoned when the weather patterns changed and the monsoons moved east, since the populations showed no signs of having developed irrigation they followed the rains. If there had been some founding influence from the Middle East either Sumer or Egypt - wouldn't they have known about irrigation techniques?

[questionmark]

I cant see any reason why the Indus Valley Civilization couldn't have developed all by itself - in situ so to speak. From what I have read it looks like the cities contemporaneous with Mohenjo Daro were abandoned when the weather patterns changed and the monsoons moved east, since the populations showed no signs of having developed irrigation they followed the rains. If there had been some founding influence from the Middle East either Sumer or Egypt - wouldn't they have known about irrigation techniques?

quite so, as the first large irrigation project we know of was in the Jordan Valley around 10,000 BC. But that was way before either Sumerians or Egyptians entered the scene.

[Skithia]

quite so, as the first large irrigation project we know of was in the Jordan Valley around 10,000 BC. But that was way before either Sumerians or Egyptians entered the scene.

That's more or less what I mean peoples from that area, (not getting into where the Jewish peoples started out as I don't know enough) knew about irrigation - they had had a need to develop it as they watered their fields from river sources. The IVC never had a need to develop irrigation so they didnt.

[questionmark]

That's more or less what I mean peoples from that area, (not getting into where the Jewish peoples started out as I don't know enough) knew about irrigation - they had had a need to develop it as they watered their fields from river sources. The IVC never had a need to develop irrigation so they didnt.

Speculations about who in an account uncorroborated by history and archeology are always problematic. Basically the whole premiss of this thread is based on the same old error: Trying to establish the Bible as a factual and accurate account.

Always ends up failing.

[The Puzzler]

http://www.jewishenc...n-jewish-legend

Thanks granpa, I am aware of that article, I actually started a thread titled Did the Jews come from India? but I am still not convinced Aristotle didn't report what he was told or thought of as fact.

"In his first book on Sleep he relates of Aristotle, his master, that he had a discourse with a Jew; and his own account was that what this Jew said merited admiration and showed philosophical erudition. To speak of the race first, the man was a Jew by birth and came from Cœlesyria [Palestine]. These Jews are derived from the philosophers of India. In India the philosophers call themselves Kalani, and in Syria Jews, taking their name from the country they inhabit, which is Judea; the name of their capital is rather difficult to pronounce: they call it Jerusalem.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=234992&hl

He is not speaking of all Jews possibly but the actual Jewish priests, who called themselves Kalani in India - priestly lines may be very old and very different from the general population.

[Frank Merton]

Speculations about who in an account uncorroborated by history and archeology are always problematic. Basically the whole premiss of this thread is based on the same old error: Trying to establish the Bible as a factual and accurate account.

Always ends up failing.

It looks to me that there is no evidence linking the culture to any other (except of course there have to have been some exchanges, in spite of the tough terrain separating them from the Tigris-Euphrates). In fact, as I was interested to read above about irrigation, there is evidence they were quite on their own when it comes to even the spread of ideas.

This culture would have disappeared quite awhile -- maybe even a couple thousand years -- before the coming of the Indo-European speaking peoples from out of the NW. India is indeed an ancient place.