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Kowalski

Revelation 18

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So, I was on a comment board that I like to go on, and someone started talking about how the United States is Babylon from Revelations. So, I decided to look it up, and found this nine minute video:

Link:

Pretty mind blowing, huh?

Anyways, I looked up Revelations 18 in the KJV Bible, and several verses stand out for me:

And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Notice the words "merchants of the earth". This could very well be eluding to how mega corporations control America and the rest of the world.....

How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,

23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

Corporate controlled media anyone?

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

All the wars we carry out all over the globe....No telling how many millions of civilians and soldiers have been killed.....

The verses come from this site, btw: http://www.biblegate... 18&version=KJV

So, what say you?

Is America Babylon from Revelations?

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Posted (edited)

It's not an uncommon parallel to draw, Burt. Quite a few have done the same. While it looks convincing, the language in Revelations lends itself to a lot of different States/Nations at various times in history and this tells us simly that what Revelations declares as 'prophecy' is actually pretty common when a nation gains power.

For me, I think the passage refers to Rome (ancient Rome, that is, of biblical times). That the various 'prophecies' in Revelations (and throughout the bible) have already supposed to have come to pass a long, long time ago.

Still interesting to draw these parallels with what happened back then. It reminds us that, for all our technological and social advances, we really haven't changed much at all.

Edited by Leonardo
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Posted (edited)

It's not an uncommon parallel to draw, Burt. Quite a few have done the same. While it looks convincing, the language in Revelations lends itself to a lot of different States/Nations at various times in history and this tells us simly that what Revelations declares as 'prophecy' is actually pretty common when a nation gains power.

For me, I think the passage refers to Rome (ancient Rome, that is, of biblical times). That the various 'prophecies' in Revelations (and throughout the bible) have already supposed to have come to pass a long, long time ago.

I always thought it meant Rome myself, in the historical sense, as well. Merchants ran the Roman Empire, as well.

It's an interesting theory though, America being Babylon.... Though the way Revelations is written, it could be interpreted as any other Empire/Nation as well....

Edited by Burt Gummer

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Many think this refers to Rome and specifically the Roman Church. Not every religious organization calling itself a church means that it is Christian. Roman Catholicism has been responsible for many thousands of Christian martyrs over the centuries, especially Protestants. Some think it will play a part in the final one-world rule of the antichrist as the false prophet, Rev. 13:11 and following verses.

The United States may not be mentioned in Scripture at all, because typically Gentile nations in the Bible are discussed only in their relationship to ancient Israel, long before we were a nation.

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nah.

the thing about this is that its term and phrases of general doom and destruction. they can, and have been applied to pretty much every dominant country over the centuries. also, we ain't go much ivory here. or purple. not much purple at all.

i am not a theologian, though,

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nah.

the thing about this is that its term and phrases of general doom and destruction. they can, and have been applied to pretty much every dominant country over the centuries. also, we ain't go much ivory here. or purple. not much purple at all.

i am not a theologian, though,

For the Rastafarians, Western oligarchic and autocratic capitalism, with the US currently at the head of the class, is "Babylon the great" (Rev. 18:2). As Pantagonian notes, this most opaque of New Testament books has been applied to various monstrous empires, nations and ideologies which have sought to enslave, crush and obliterate human beings.

In similar threads previously I have offered the opinion that Revelation is a text of poetry, metaphor, codes embedded in its own time of Roman hegemony and theology derived from the syncretism of Judaism and earliest Christian proclamation. This doesn't imply its outdated; in fact, meaning can be derived from many ancient texts long after their original historical points of reference are moot (because the spiritual meaning endures). "Revelation" has been a cottage industry in Christianity for many centuries, on many levels.

One other point, which may seem trivial, but is important from a literary, linguistic and theological point of view: The text is entitled "The Revelation of [st.] John" (or, "The Apocalypse of John;" or "The Book of Revelation"). It's not "Revelations;" no "s." This is a record of John's unique revelation from and about Christ, a continuous, complex vision and not a series of visions or plural revelations. Many scholars believe its themes can be discerned and applied to any set of historical social-political-economic conditions in history as the testimony of (God-given) freedom triumphing over oppression.

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For the Rastafarians, Western oligarchic and autocratic capitalism, with the US currently at the head of the class, is "Babylon the great" (Rev. 18:2). As Pantagonian notes, this most opaque of New Testament books has been applied to various monstrous empires, nations and ideologies which have sought to enslave, crush and obliterate human beings.

In similar threads previously I have offered the opinion that Revelation is a text of poetry, metaphor, codes embedded in its own time of Roman hegemony and theology derived from the syncretism of Judaism and earliest Christian proclamation. This doesn't imply its outdated; in fact, meaning can be derived from many ancient texts long after their original historical points of reference are moot (because the spiritual meaning endures). "Revelation" has been a cottage industry in Christianity for many centuries, on many levels.

One other point, which may seem trivial, but is important from a literary, linguistic and theological point of view: The text is entitled "The Revelation of [st.] John" (or, "The Apocalypse of John;" or "The Book of Revelation"). It's not "Revelations;" no "s." This is a record of John's unique revelation from and about Christ, a continuous, complex vision and not a series of visions or plural revelations. Many scholars believe its themes can be discerned and applied to any set of historical social-political-economic conditions in history as the testimony of (God-given) freedom triumphing over oppression.

The Rastafarians also believed that Haile Salassie was the return of Jesus Christ if memory serves. However he has since died which is a bit awkward to say the least. There are many specific prophesies in the book that are as yet unfulfilled until Christ's return.

Revelation is largely a Jewish book, that is, there are over 400 allusions to the OT in it, yet without a single direct quote, according to Bible scholar and lecturer Dr. Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Jews would easily spot the symbolism and references if they studied the OT.

As far as the title to the last book of Scripture, I believe that it comes from the Greek title of the book, which if I remember correctly is Apocalyptos, from which we get our term apocalypse, It means "the unveiling" it is giving information about something that was previously hidden. It is not a revelation of the Apostle John, it is a revelation OF Jesus Christ, John was merely (if I may use that term for such an extraordinary event) the stenographer and wrote down what he was told. The first four chapters deal with Jesus and his relationship to the Church on earth, both to existing churches of that day in Asia Minor, but also many believe to churches in similar circumstances throughout history. There is a school of thought that this also outlines the entire church age, from its Apostolic origin to its culmination before the return of Christ. The chapters five through nineteen (again if memory serves) deal with the Israel, the Gentile nations and God's wrath upon those nations for their idolatry and their treacherous dealings with His people, the last two chapters deal with the Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers and the new heavens, new Jerusalem and new earth.

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It's not an uncommon parallel to draw, Burt. Quite a few have done the same. While it looks convincing, the language in Revelations lends itself to a lot of different States/Nations at various times in history and this tells us simly that what Revelations declares as 'prophecy' is actually pretty common when a nation gains power.

For me, I think the passage refers to Rome (ancient Rome, that is, of biblical times). That the various 'prophecies' in Revelations (and throughout the bible) have already supposed to have come to pass a long, long time ago.

Still interesting to draw these parallels with what happened back then. It reminds us that, for all our technological and social advances, we really haven't changed much at all.

Agreed it was likely referring to Rome, and yet when I think of the politics of the modern era I oh so often also picture Nero Fiddling - now why do you suppose that would be?

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Posted (edited)

The Rastafarians also believed that Haile Salassie was the return of Jesus Christ if memory serves. However he has since died which is a bit awkward to say the least. There are many specific prophesies in the book that are as yet unfulfilled until Christ's return.

Revelation is largely a Jewish book, that is, there are over 400 allusions to the OT in it, yet without a single direct quote, according to Bible scholar and lecturer Dr. Walter C. Kaiser, Jr., Jews would easily spot the symbolism and references if they studied the OT.

As far as the title to the last book of Scripture, I believe that it comes from the Greek title of the book, which if I remember correctly is Apocalyptos, from which we get our term apocalypse, It means "the unveiling" it is giving information about something that was previously hidden. It is not a revelation of the Apostle John, it is a revelation OF Jesus Christ, John was merely (if I may use that term for such an extraordinary event) the stenographer and wrote down what he was told. The first four chapters deal with Jesus and his relationship to the Church on earth, both to existing churches of that day in Asia Minor, but also many believe to churches in similar circumstances throughout history. There is a school of thought that this also outlines the entire church age, from its Apostolic origin to its culmination before the return of Christ. The chapters five through nineteen (again if memory serves) deal with the Israel, the Gentile nations and God's wrath upon those nations for their idolatry and their treacherous dealings with His people, the last two chapters deal with the Great White Throne Judgment for unbelievers and the new heavens, new Jerusalem and new earth.

The Revelation "of" John wasn't meant to say he produced it; it means he experienced the revelation of Christ. The book has varied titles, depending upon the tradition. Thanks for correcting my sloppy preposition, shared with some Bible translators, and for the rest of your good info.

[The reference to Rastafarians was to indicate that different groups have different, sometime odd, targets for 'Babylon,' as per the OP's reference to Rev. 18.]

Edited by szentgyorgy
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