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Dolzhenko Stas

Djed

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Posted (edited)

The casual Was- scepter. In early summer, I was interested in ancient Egypt. Today I’m ready to provide an analysis of its culture in a series of articles. If you like the information and its flow, I’ll upload new articles as they are nesting.

q5.png

The casual Was-scepter. Myths and Realities. What was it in reality. The volume of the evidence base is very large, so I give the links

*Snip*

Edited by kmt_sesh
Removed links

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Dolzhenko Stas, welcome to UM. A gentle reminder that we do not want people to use UM to promote their own sites.

  • 1a. Advertising: Do not use the forum to advertise a product, site or service.

Rules.

Also, on visiting your links I saw your site is in Russian. This is an English-language forum, so a Russian website will not be of use to most posters. However, you're more than welcome to discuss your ideas based on the material from your website, which is more useful to the group. I for one enjoy discussing ancient Egypt. If your discussion takes off and people contribute to a dialog, I can revisit my decision about the links to your site.

Thanks.

kmt_sesh

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Dear kmt_sesh, I apologize for the violation of forum rules. But I do not advertise my site, especially for commercial purposes. I'd love to put all the information on the forum, but unfortunately this is not always possible, for I'm going to publish over 60 articles. I will try in the future to lay out the most interesting articles to your forum in English

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Dear kmt_sesh, I apologize for the violation of forum rules. But I do not advertise my site, especially for commercial purposes. I'd love to put all the information on the forum, but unfortunately this is not always possible, for I'm going to publish over 60 articles. I will try in the future to lay out the most interesting articles to your forum in English

Dolzhenko, a good way to do this would be to post just the most important paragraph or two here, and then link to the article on your website. That would be acceptable. We want to avoid people telling posters to check out their website because that is not sufficient in and of itself. You have to bring the relevant points to your posts here. In this way your links would be all right, but a potential problem is if all your articles are in Russian. Most people here can't read Russian, so the articles would be of no use to them.

Give it some thought. :tu:

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Hello Dolzhenko Stas!

And welcome to UM!

I hope you will listen Kmt and that you will post all your 60 articles translated on English. Ofcourse with paragraph on UM and with link.

It will be my pleasure to contribute to your threads if I will be able to do so. Nevertheless I will sure enjoy reading it.

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Dolzhenko, a fellow Mod suggested you put a link to your site in your signature area. This would be acceptable, as your site doesn't compete with UM. This way you could carry on with your dialog while having the link handy for all.

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Anyone ever been interested in history, culture or religion of the Ancient Egypt, is familiar with the "iconic symbol" Djed . Its image can be found on almost every second bas-relief , and we have become so accustomed to it that we do not wonder, what was it and how did it look like in reality? I think we can immediately reject the theory that Djed was a stylized form of the backbone of Osiris (could the ancient Egyptians, familiar with medicine and the process of mummification, be so ignorant of the anatomy?) . You’ll be surprised, but for a correct understanding of the true essence of Djed, you just need to ... demount it!

djed-shem.jpg

Djed - Symbol . Installation: 1. We need a Djed (consumer) and four cone-shaped stand. 2 . We put on a "stand" on Djed (consumer). 3. We take the four halo and put them on Djed . 4 . Voila, the Djed - Symbol is ready!

35.3.290-ac.jpg

Djed-Consumer.

26.9.13_EGDP010268.jpg

"Stand " and "Teapot".

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again..another explanation of how they cut the stones - sound.

heard that before.

Until you can provide us with evidence of the power source that was used to create the sound t5hat was powerful enough to plasticize stone, there it goes.

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I think we can immediately reject the theory that Djed was a stylized form of the backbone of Osiris (could the ancient Egyptians, familiar with medicine and the process of mummification, be so ignorant of the anatomy?) .

"Stylising' something means to represent it stylistically, not accurately. The argument the Djed can be dismissed as representing the backbone of Osiris because it is stylised, misses the point of stylisation.

I appreciate we have many posters from different nations posting here, and having to communicate in English may introduce misunderstandings of meaning and sense for some. I hope that is only the case here.

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A knowledge of Helmholtz resonators will help to understand in part where the OP is leading to. The science behind that and resonance and plasticity is okay, the arguments will of course be in the application. This is now, to my knowledge, two pyramid, or least general construction theories, using Helmholtz resonators. Any more and it's going to start looking like it must be true, surely, yes?.............

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wooden-honey-dipper-with-honey1.jpg

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It might be helpful to review some basic facts about the djed pillar. We've seen an alternative view, so what has orthodox research revealed?

For one thing, the djed is very ancient. It was originally associated with Sokar and Ptah, not Osiris. When the djed made its first tangible appearance as an icon, in the Early Dynastic Period (Dynasty 3), there was not yet even a cult for the god Osiris and no recognizable cult for him would exist until centuries later, at the end of Dynasty 5. This reveals that originally the djed had nothing to do with Osiris, hence it was not originally even a symbol for his backbone.

The earliest visage for the djed would seem to be as part of a ritual ceremony involving early rulers. The ceremony was called "Raising the Djed" and probably involved a king's demonstration of his physical prowess and therefore his ability to rule; it may have been a component of the original heb-sed festivals (my speculation, I caution), which would be part of kingship for the entire length of dynastic history. In this guise the original djed pillar was probably a tree with lopped branches. Again, originally, it had nothing to do with backbones. However, in the ancient Egyptian language the word Dd means "strength, endurance," so it fits in with its original cultic uses.

The djed became common as an amulet beginning late in the Old Kingdom. By the Middle Kingdom, when the cult of Osiris was flourishing, it became firmly associated with this god. This was the earliest period during which the djed came to symbolize the backbone of Osiris. The original meaning of the word ("strength, endurance") was still appropriate in this guise given the position Osiris held in Egyptian society. Leonardo's point about stylization is of great importance in this discussion. No, the djed does not resemble vertebrae terribly well, but remember that originally the djed pillar did not bear this association. What's more important is the ancient meaning of the word, not the peculiarities of its appearance.

That the djed was a stylized object is beyond logical dispute. Also beyond dispute is this symbol's association with the deity Osiris from the Middle Kingdom on. By the Middle Kingdom all deceased people believed they were offered the opportunity to have an eternal afterlife because of Osiris, and by the New Kingdom it was common for deceased people to be referred to as Osiris. This is why coffins by the Late Period often had a depiction of the djed on the back:

2sarcophageImememinet.gif

Further stylizations involved incorporating other motifs into the djed. For example, the djed topped with an atef crown is a direct association with Osiris and is often identified as such on funerary equipment like canopic chests. Frequently we see the djed united with other typical symbols:

gccc2_clip_image011_0000.jpg

Here, on a coffin bottom, the djed is the base (the "strength") for an ankh symbol holding a sun disk—all told, a powerful symbol of spiritual resurrection, which was the chief role of Osiris. One often sees the goddesses Isis and Nephthys on either side of such a motif, in their role as protectors and venerators of Osiris (and by extension all deceased Egyptians, who believed themselves to become nTrw, "divine ones," upon reaching the afterlife).

The djed is often trotted out in alternative literature and in internet forums such as ours not as a symbol but as a lost and mysterious tool. One can quickly determine that the idea doesn't survive scrutiny. Of all the myriad—practically countless—pharaonic depictions of the djed, not once is it demonstrably depicted as a tool or other form of utilitarian device. It is found in the form of amulets most commonly, and the largest physical example of which I'm personally aware isn't much more than a foot and a half in length—and it's made of ceramic. Ceramic with a glazed coating is not exactly suitable as a tool.

We are fortunate to have the occasional tomb of a nobleman on whose walls we see a plethora of workmen engaged in all sorts of industry. The depictions are quite detailed, and no tomb is more famous for this than Rekhmire's (TT100, Dynasty 18, Thebes). See this link for a small section of his tomb wall. Nowhere in such depictions are workers shown using a djed as a tool or other utilitarian device.

There really isn't any mystery here, nor cause to go beyond extant evidence. The evidence is plentiful, in both texts and depictions. There is no ambiguity.

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The earliest visage for the djed would seem to be as part of a ritual ceremony involving early rulers. The ceremony was called "Raising the Djed" ...

Which is proof positive of the Egyptian's love of puns, right?

The djed is often trotted out in alternative literature and in internet forums such as ours not as a symbol but as a lost and mysterious tool. One can quickly determine that the idea doesn't survive scrutiny. Of all the myriad—practically countless—pharaonic depictions of the djed, not once is it demonstrably depicted as a tool or other form of utilitarian device. It is found in the form of amulets most commonly, and the largest physical example of which I'm personally aware isn't much more than a foot and a half in length—and it's made of ceramic. Ceramic with a glazed coating is not exactly suitable as a tool.

As an expert on idiocy, I note that you have left out some claims here.

Please note:

DjedPowerGenerator180.jpg

"Image of an Egyptian Van de Graaff generator. Isis and Nephthys at the bottom sit on the sign for gold, nebu, which is a superior power conductor. The djed column means stability, acting as a stable base for the generator, the term possibly also meaning "insulator" in this context. The ankh means the power of life, or electrical power. The round symbol is the solar disk, or a source of light, as the case may be. The current understanding of the ankh and solar disk as merely symbolic of life is the result of a degeneration of ancient Egyptian thought, where superstition had taken the place of science."

The djed as insulator.

Also among the realm of the non-thinking is the belief that the djed is the ground (or common) for an electrical circuit. Here's the symbol for ground (common) that is in use today in circuit schematics:

Common1.GIF

These claims have been refined by Chris Dunn as part of his claim of Ancient Egyptian electrical prowess (Pyramid Power Plant fantasy.)

Stupidity abounds.

Harte

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Which is proof positive of the Egyptian's love of puns, right?

Much more so when you consider the very early (pre-Osirian) representations of the Djed may have had phallic significance. :whistle:

Edited by Leonardo

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AE man watching dancers:

"That really raises my djed."

Harte

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AE man watching dancers:

"That really raises my djed."

Harte

:lol:

His companion at the dance, however, has drunk too much beer and has "brewer's-djed". :P:innocent:

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It might be helpful to review some basic facts about the djed pillar. We've seen an alternative view, so what has orthodox research revealed?

For one thing, the djed is very ancient. It was originally associated with Sokar and Ptah, not Osiris. When the djed made its first tangible appearance as an icon, in the Early Dynastic Period (Dynasty 3), there was not yet even a cult for the god Osiris and no recognizable cult for him would exist until centuries later, at the end of Dynasty 5. This reveals that originally the djed had nothing to do with Osiris, hence it was not originally even a symbol for his backbone.

The earliest visage for the djed would seem to be as part of a ritual ceremony involving early rulers. The ceremony was called "Raising the Djed" and probably involved a king's demonstration of his physical prowess and therefore his ability to rule; it may have been a component of the original heb-sed festivals (my speculation, I caution), which would be part of kingship for the entire length of dynastic history. In this guise the original djed pillar was probably a tree with lopped branches. Again, originally, it had nothing to do with backbones. However, in the ancient Egyptian language the word Dd means "strength, endurance," so it fits in with its original cultic uses.

The djed became common as an amulet beginning late in the Old Kingdom. By the Middle Kingdom, when the cult of Osiris was flourishing, it became firmly associated with this god. This was the earliest period during which the djed came to symbolize the backbone of Osiris. The original meaning of the word ("strength, endurance") was still appropriate in this guise given the position Osiris held in Egyptian society. Leonardo's point about stylization is of great importance in this discussion. No, the djed does not resemble vertebrae terribly well, but remember that originally the djed pillar did not bear this association. What's more important is the ancient meaning of the word, not the peculiarities of its appearance.

That the djed was a stylized object is beyond logical dispute. Also beyond dispute is this symbol's association with the deity Osiris from the Middle Kingdom on. By the Middle Kingdom all deceased people believed they were offered the opportunity to have an eternal afterlife because of Osiris, and by the New Kingdom it was common for deceased people to be referred to as Osiris. This is why coffins by the Late Period often had a depiction of the djed on the back:

2sarcophageImememinet.gif

Further stylizations involved incorporating other motifs into the djed. For example, the djed topped with an atef crown is a direct association with Osiris and is often identified as such on funerary equipment like canopic chests. Frequently we see the djed united with other typical symbols:

gccc2_clip_image011_0000.jpg

Here, on a coffin bottom, the djed is the base (the "strength") for an ankh symbol holding a sun disk—all told, a powerful symbol of spiritual resurrection, which was the chief role of Osiris. One often sees the goddesses Isis and Nephthys on either side of such a motif, in their role as protectors and venerators of Osiris (and by extension all deceased Egyptians, who believed themselves to become nTrw, "divine ones," upon reaching the afterlife).

The djed is often trotted out in alternative literature and in internet forums such as ours not as a symbol but as a lost and mysterious tool. One can quickly determine that the idea doesn't survive scrutiny. Of all the myriad—practically countless—pharaonic depictions of the djed, not once is it demonstrably depicted as a tool or other form of utilitarian device. It is found in the form of amulets most commonly, and the largest physical example of which I'm personally aware isn't much more than a foot and a half in length—and it's made of ceramic. Ceramic with a glazed coating is not exactly suitable as a tool.

We are fortunate to have the occasional tomb of a nobleman on whose walls we see a plethora of workmen engaged in all sorts of industry. The depictions are quite detailed, and no tomb is more famous for this than Rekhmire's (TT100, Dynasty 18, Thebes). See this link for a small section of his tomb wall. Nowhere in such depictions are workers shown using a djed as a tool or other utilitarian device.

There really isn't any mystery here, nor cause to go beyond extant evidence. The evidence is plentiful, in both texts and depictions. There is no ambiguity.

R. T. Rundle Clark found a different origin. He pointed out that in the Old Kingdom, the pillar was shown in wall decorations at the Step Pyramid at Saqqara. In these drawings, the djed pillars were shown in the royal palace where they formed columns supporting windows. When one looked through the windows, the pillars gave the appearance of holding up the sky beyond. He wrote that, "The purpose is clear:...the djed columns are world pillars, holding up the sky

Djed-Holding-Up-Sky.jpg

The Djed 'Holding up the Sky (Step Pyramid, Saqqara)

The 'Ankh' symbol holding up the sun disc may in fact be the 'girdle of Isis' (with hands aloft- Ka??) holding up the sundisc in the same way that the Djed (the four pillars of the sky in side profile) holds up the sky.

SC

Edited by Scott Creighton

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2sarcophageImememinet.gif

that djed doesnt look like a backbone to me

it looks like her hair

The maximum hair length that is possible to reach is about 15 cm (6 in) for infants (below the age of 1), about 60 cm (24 in) for children, and generally 100 cm (40 in) for adults. Documentation for decrease of the maximum length with age cannot be found in the literature. Some individuals can reach excessive lengths. Lengths greater than 150 cm (59 in) are frequently observed in long hair contests. Xie Qiuping had the longest documented hair in the world, measuring 5.627 m (18 ft 5.54 in) in May 2004

Edited by granpa

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http://hans.wyrdweb.eu/tag/djed/

djed-pillar-240x300.jpg

The name Djed contains the term DJ meaning Serpent.

Dj comes back in Dj-huti (Thoth/Hermes),

Dj-inn (a Magical Serpent Ghost) and

Djedi (An Egyptian Magician).

Edited by granpa

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Which is proof positive of the Egyptian's love of puns, right?

Well, it'a important to make sure your djed will remain strong. Man, now you're dragging down to that level. :devil:

And to think, before I signed on at UM I was such an innocent and pure Catholic boy.

As an expert on idiocy, I note that you have left out some claims here.

Please note:

DjedPowerGenerator180.jpg

"Image of an Egyptian Van de Graaff generator. Isis and Nephthys at the bottom sit on the sign for gold, nebu, which is a superior power conductor. The djed column means stability, acting as a stable base for the generator, the term possibly also meaning "insulator" in this context. The ankh means the power of life, or electrical power. The round symbol is the solar disk, or a source of light, as the case may be. The current understanding of the ankh and solar disk as merely symbolic of life is the result of a degeneration of ancient Egyptian thought, where superstition had taken the place of science."

The djed as insulator.

Also among the realm of the non-thinking is the belief that the djed is the ground (or common) for an electrical circuit. Here's the symbol for ground (common) that is in use today in circuit schematics:

Common1.GIF

These claims have been refined by Chris Dunn as part of his claim of Ancient Egyptian electrical prowess (Pyramid Power Plant fantasy.)

Stupidity abounds.

Harte

Well, that's Chris Dunn for you. Along with Erich von Däniken, he's a favorite among people who lack critical-thinking skills.

I wish people like Dunn and von Däniken would at least try to take the time to do some credible research before spouting off their obvious nonsense. There's enough dumbing-down of mankind as it is.

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2sarcophageImememinet.gif

that djed doesnt look like a backbone to me

it looks like her hair

<<Snip>>

As explained in my earlier post, the original incarnations of the djed pillar did not represent a backbone. That was an association made only much later, when the cult of Osiris began to flourish. The meaning of the word djed—"strength, endurance"—is the important part.

The coffin in your photo may well have belonged to a man. It need not have been a woman's. Many ancient Egyptian coffins are gender-ambiguous (there's a reason for this) and what will clarify the person's sex is the name and titles recorded in inscriptions on the coffin. I can't see the details well enough to make the determination, but I guess that's despite the point.

The depiction of the djed on the back definitely is not hair. The bluish (greenish?) black headpiece framing the face, going down the back, and ending past the shoulders is the hair—more specifically, a representation of a wig. Both men and women wore wigs. This is the typical tripartite wig with lappets going down the shoulders and the remainder extending down past the shoulders on the back. Many upper-class adults wore elaborate wigs because long hair was not desirable in this population, due primarily to lice. Wigs might acquire lice, but one could take them off.

The thing going down the back is definitely a djed pillar. And in the case of this Late Period coffin, it definitely represents the backbone of Osiris. There is no reason to doubt this.

http://hans.wyrdweb.eu/tag/djed/

djed-pillar-240x300.jpg

The name Djed contains the term DJ meaning Serpent.

Dj comes back in Dj-huti (Thoth/Hermes),

Dj-inn (a Magical Serpent Ghost) and

Djedi (An Egyptian Magician).

The phoneme D (your "dj") doesn't usually mean anything by itself. That's if we're talking about ancient Egyptian, which I'm assuming we are. It doesn't mean "serpent," the ancient Egyptian for which was naw (sounding something like "nah-oo"). The word "serpent" could easily bear ritual meanings (such as the serpent demon Apep, [Greek rendering Apophis]), so there were a number of different words to denote "snake," one of which was Ddft ("djed-fet"), which begins with the D sound but is spelled in hieroglyphs without the djed pillar. In other words, the djed is not involved here.

DHwty (Djehuty) is indeed Thoth, the great ibis-headed deity of wisdom, magic, and scribal arts. There is no real connection with Hermes from the Egyptian perspective—this was an artificial syncretization formed by the Greeks. However, as with the above, and although the D phoneme appears in the name, there is no hieroglyphic association with the djed. The hieroglyphic spelling is completely different for this name. A great many ancient Egyptian names and words begin with or include the D sound but that doesn't mean they have any hieroglyphic associations with the djed pillar or serpents. Most do not. It was just a common sound in the ancient language.

I'm not familiar with an ancient Egyptian serpent spirit named "Djinn." I certainly don't pretend to have a command of all of the 2,000-plus pharaonic deities, demons, and spirits, so do you have a reliable link or source with more information?

Djedi was in fact a magician in an ancient Egyptian fable, but it was also a common male name in general. As I recall (I'm working from memory), it is an abbreviated form of a longer name. Nicknames were very common in the ancient culture.

We rarely see eye to eye on things, Scott, but I had forgotten about this. Thanks for contributing the information.

Edited by kmt_sesh
Clarification

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[/left]

<Snip>>

The Djed 'Holding up the Sky (Step Pyramid, Saqqara)

The 'Ankh' symbol holding up the sun disc may in fact be the 'girdle of Isis' (with hands aloft- Ka??) holding up the sundisc in the same way that the Djed (the four pillars of the sky in side profile) holds up the sky.

SC

We rarely see eye to eye on things, Scott, but I had forgotten about this. Thanks for contributing the information.

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does her backbone go all the way to her feet?

2sarcophageImememinet.gif

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Yes.

She was a real stiff.

Harte

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A practical interpretation of some symbols like the Djed.

[media=]

[/media]

And as we are looking in the mirrors: the 'guet' tour.

Yep, i can see a jet in there :-)

tourduguet_zps3113b37e.jpg

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