Humans were in Brazil 30 000 years ago

[jmccr8]

Hi Kane9,

Yes it does make one wonder.What gets me about the skeletal artifact with Austroid cranial features is the age and southern location,so what route would they have taken? For some reason traveling from Siberia doesn't seem right,so I started wondering how much of the Pacific plate was exposed during the last ice age and if there were island groups that would have been accessible during that time frame.If ancient hominids had traveled to Australia 50-70kbp and other islands were being populated why not the Americas.I came across this,so any input would be appreciated.

Easter Island: land of mystery (4)

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Hi,

While looking around I saw this article and am adding it to the thread.

Lack of Founding Amerindian Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Extinct Aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia

jmccr8

[kane9]

Hi jmccr8,

I would respond in this manner. I regard the peopling of the Americas as history informed by several different scientific fields including anthropology and archaeology. A particular hypothesis known as Clovis First became a theory without sufficient testing, in part due to technological limitations and in part due to the dominance of it's supporters in North American Academia. As orthodoxy set in, the theory became close to an ideology, attacking or ignoring contrary evidence, and thereby preventing advances in the fields of anthropology and archaeology in the Americas. In other words, I regard it as a hypothesis that evolved into a theory without science truly being in place to guide it.

The article you reference is essentially attacking plate tectonics. Basically, it attempts to resurrect the dominant paradigm that existed before plate tectonics was accepted as theory which ,like Clovis First, was in place because of a lack of technological tools and a very conservative ideology. Namely, a thinking that postulated that continents could only rise or sink but never change positions relative to one another. Plate Tectonic Theory is so well tested that, like Einstein's Theory of Relativity, it would be far more likely to be built upon rather than replaced. It took decades for plate tectonics to be accepted as the old guard fought back hard.

In terms of cross ocean voyages, I regard such ventures to have had a stronger psychological barrier than either a technological or logistical one throughout much of hominid history. It is one thing to use rivers, lakes, sea straights, and coastlines as highways when one knows land is near or when one can see it and quite another to actually try crossing an ocean without knowing what lies beyond. Even Hss has been reluctant to make that leap. What the Vikings did and most especially the Polynesians did is so far as we know unique in history. I have no doubt that the Polynesians went beyond Easter Island onto the West Coast of South America. The presence of sweet potatoes and chickens in South America are good indicators.

I have written the above in an attempt to provide a middle ground between the hidebound old conservatism that would have our ancestors firmly on ground and the other extreme of ancient ocean voyages. In my opinion, the middle ground is driving current revisionist thinking as migrations along coasts, such as the Asian-North American coastal route or the ice shelf "coast" between America and Europe are considered. These modes of migration place much less strain on technological, logistical, and psychological restraints than other modes. Just a summation of my thoughts based on what I am aware of at the present time.

[kane9]

I would also say that for all my life, the immigration of first Americans has been used as the hypothesis to explain the megafauna extinction. I would rather ponder now that Clovis First is nearly dead what event(s) led to both the megafauna extinction and the demise of Australoid populations in South America and Solutrean populations in North America( if either were indeed present). Something happened at the end of the last ice age that is yet to be fully explained. The megafauna extinction and an apparent change in human morphological features suggesting population change after that extinction speaks to an unresolved mystery. What I am getting at is that whatever whacked the megafauna may have had a similar impact on the humans that were present at the time.

[docyabut2]

I don't think hominids made it to the Americas, would`nt there be some hominids bones found just like in Africa and Asia? Hss came as the Colvis, but there could have been a few earlier that crossed the Pacific.

[jmccr8]

Hi Kane9,

After reading the article,my thoughts were that if ocean levels were lower during the last ice age that there may have been more island groups available with some of the current island groups having greater landmass which may have made island hopping easier.I realize that they would not have had very large water crafts to carry suppies and would need to replenish food stocks often so being able to see land would be advantageous as well as a motivator.

I took today off of work as I will be working through the weekend and took advantage of the time to look around and see what I can find.I have been looking to see if there were any similarities with lithic artifacts in Siberia,Asia and Eastern European to compare with Clovis points.From what I've been finding Clovis points are unique to the Americas and the only precursor to the appears to originate in the Americas as well.At this point I this point I am inclined to think that there may have been a back migration to Siberia from a population that had come to the Americas much earlier.I only say this because of some of the articles that I have been reading and posting in this and two other threads.Of course I haven't been posting everything that I have been reading .

I did try to find more on Dr. Willerson's findings on the Anzick Clovis Childs Dna that you mentioned a few posts back but there ian't much being said about that,I will keep an eye out for more on that in the future.Thanks for the response

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Hi Docyabut2,

At this time there isn't any evidence that other hominid groups have been in the Americas,but that does rule out the possibility,it's only recently that we have found out about Denisovans and more is discovered quite regularly so who knows what the future holds.

jmccr8

[kane9]

Hi Kane9,

After reading the article,my thoughts were that if ocean levels were lower during the last ice age that there may have been more island groups available with some of the current island groups having greater landmass which may have made island hopping easier.I realize that they would not have had very large water crafts to carry suppies and would need to replenish food stocks often so being able to see land would be advantageous as well as a motivator.

I took today off of work as I will be working through the weekend and took advantage of the time to look around and see what I can find.I have been looking to see if there were any similarities with lithic artifacts in Siberia,Asia and Eastern European to compare with Clovis points.From what I've been finding Clovis points are unique to the Americas and the only precursor to the appears to originate in the Americas as well.At this point I this point I am inclined to think that there may have been a back migration to Siberia from a population that had come to the Americas much earlier.I only say this because of some of the articles that I have been reading and posting in this and two other threads.Of course I haven't been posting everything that I have been reading .

I did try to find more on Dr. Willerson's findings on the Anzick Clovis Childs Dna that you mentioned a few posts back but there ian't much being said about that,I will keep an eye out for more on that in the future.Thanks for the response

jmccr8

Yes. I am keeping an eye out for the Anzick results also. I suspect that the DNA sequencing has been completed for some time but are giving the folks involved pause because they are anomalous. I might would do the same if I were looking at something that didn't fit my expectations and was potentially controversial as well. I still think that the Mal'ta child's DNA sequencing results were released first because they help lay the framework in which those folks wish to place the Anzick results. None of us can be completely without bias and I freely admit that includes me.

[cormac mac airt]

Yes. I am keeping an eye out for the Anzick results also. I suspect that the DNA sequencing has been completed for some time but are giving the folks involved pause because they are anomalous. I might would do the same if I were looking at something that didn't fit my expectations and was potentially controversial as well. I still think that the Mal'ta child's DNA sequencing results were released first because they help lay the framework in which those folks wish to place the Anzick results. None of us can be completely without bias and I freely admit that includes me.

Cart before the horse, don't you think, since it's just as likely if not moreso that any DNA testing either produced less than adequate results for making any kind of conclusions or that the DNA testing didn't show anything out of the ordinary.

cormac

Edited January 11, 2014 by cormac mac airt

[kane9]

True. We don't really know yet. It could be that they feel the need for additional sequencing to eliminate possible contamination or there may be other valid technical reasons for the delay. It is mere speculation on my part based on suspicion of human bias. Hopefully, we will know the results in the near future. The results are of scientific interest even if they show nothing out of the ordinary if only because this is the only known skeleton associated with Clovis culture at the present time. If the results are not anomalous, they then present something of a challenge to the Solutrean Theory. It is important one way or another.

[cormac mac airt]

Where genetics is concerned the Solutrean theory presents a challenge to itself since, of the 16 known mitochondrial haplogroups for Native Americans, none could remotely be misconstrued as supporting it.

cormac

[kane9]

I really should say hypothesis rather than theory. I will not contest your comment as genetic evidence is lacking at this time.

[jmccr8]

Hi Kane9,

With respect to your earlier comment about the demise of the Clovis culture and the North American megafauna I did come across this article related to the Topper site.

Topper Site Supports Theory of Extraterrestrial Impact 12,900 Years Ago | Archaeology | Sci-News.com

I know that I did read something with respect to Dr.Willerslav's dna research being completed but was not ready for release,I will look later and see if I can find it again.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

I also found this link and will add it as it deals with genetics as well

Lack of Founding Amerindian Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Extinct Aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Sorry I guess I've been reading so much that I forgot that I had posted the previous link earlier

jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

I'm not sure how link-mining is any better than quote-mining, but in any case perhaps these will be of some interest to you jmccr8. Particularly as they aren't as dated as your previous link.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0071390

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0043486

cormac

[jmccr8]

Hi Cormac,

Thanks and yes I do have those links in my files,I am sorry about not adding more of a personal notation with the last link,my grand-daughter is here now and my attention is divided right now.I use the links to give others something to respond to,they may noy reflect my position on a subject but they do express the authors position which is what I question.I have two finger typing skills and after a while they get dyslexic and I spend a fair bit of time correcting spelling and then I lose my structure of presentation.Which is why I try to hand write what I am going to type beforehand.This form of communication is still something that I am trying to become more adept at,and hopefully I will be somewhat better at this by the time I retire.

Many times I see a request for a link in support of and argument in the threads none are given and then the fiasco of demanding gets annoying for both parties those requesting and those refusing.I don't have an argument however because I get the occasional opportunity to spend time reading and I do read the links several times to try to assimilate the information I put it out there to see what kind of feed back I get and then I go and read up on what is presented by other members.I am interested in learning and find no benefit in confrontational aggression,I save that for the real world where I can enjoy that in your face feeling,

I have never professed to be any kind of know it all in any of these threads because I'm not,My areas of specialty are and always have been high stress physical and at times highly risky,and in that forum I don't blink or shrink,which is why I am here it is a somewhat humbling experience but not one that intimidates me in any way,because I want to learn.

I am and always have been thankful for your and several of the other members input and that have been patient with me,and I know that there are some members here that are less inclined to share or guide me as you have and I hope that one day they will as I respect their input in the threads that I follow.I am still trying to form a position but do not feel that I know enough to either support or refute any position with any efficiency or conviction at this time as the more I learn the more questions I have and when I feel that I have more answers than questions then I will likely be wrong.

cheers

jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

Hello jmccr8,

I appreciate what you're saying. Sadly not everyone is willing to support their position/s beyond "because I say so", which is rather ignorant in my opinion. That being said, when link-mining one runs the risk (on top of correct information) of providing material that is as often as not either outdated, woefully incorrect or misleading and can cause an information "quagmire" of sorts where it becomes hard (if not impossible) for the average person to know where to start or what to believe. Your last link to "Lack of Founding Amerindian Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in Extinct Aborigines from Tierra del Fuego-Patagonia" is a good example as it comes across, initially, as there being "no" founding NA lineages in South American lines, which is incorrect. What it was actually saying is that, as of 1996, there was no evidence that all mtDNA lineages were in South America. Which is rather common sense as a geneticist wouldn't expect to find every haplogroup/subgroup in every location. The devil is in the details.

As a general note in my experience in researching various genetic studies if something is more than 8 - 10 years old then it's likely to have been superceded by much more recent, and accurate studies. Which is why I personally try to stick to studies within the last 5 - 7 years. Believe me, it cuts down on the quagmire I mentioned above.

cormac

[jmccr8]

Thanks Cormac,

I appreciate the correction and will be more careful in the future,I will go through my files and delete any out dated material that may cause any confusion.

jmccr8