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TheVeryFirstDinosaur

Ancient Confession Found

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http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2013/10/prweb11201273.htm

"Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

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I haven't read the other threads on this subject yet, but my question is, how did the Romans convince people of the reality of this fictional character? That would be a real PR achievement.

Or, perhaps the Romans hired an actor to portray this phoney Messiah. ?

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I haven't read the other threads on this subject yet, but my question is, how did the Romans convince people of the reality of this fictional character? That would be a real PR achievement.

Or, perhaps the Romans hired an actor to portray this phoney Messiah. ?

Things were written after the supposed event.

Jesus 6 BCE-33 CE? (No mention of Jesus by anyone,or even about Matthew 27:52-:53.)

Pauline Epistles 51-58 CE (The letters considered genuine tell very little about Jesus, and have some interpolations.)

Romans Sack Judea 70 CE (Vespasian,Titus,and Flavius Josephus are key figures.)

Mark 65-70 CE (The Gospels are from unknown Greek educated writers.)

Matthew 75-80 CE

Luke 75-90 CE

John 85-100? CE

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I haven't read the other threads on this subject yet, but my question is, how did the Romans convince people of the reality of this fictional character? That would be a real PR achievement.

Or, perhaps the Romans hired an actor to portray this phoney Messiah. ?

This was before radio, tv and youtube. Most people took stuff they heard from "reliable sources" as 'gospel' (pun intended) - which is pretty much like today, really.

I read the story from another source and found it interesting, but ultimately unproveable unless we discover an actual first-hand source (from the time in question) to corroborate Atwill's claims.

...ancient confessions recently uncovered now prove, according to Atwill, that the New Testament was written by first-century Roman aristocrats and that they fabricated the entire story of Jesus Christ.

While I know that different sources may present the same story differently, and even inaccurately, I did not read that Atwill had any actual first-hand sources, but was relying on the parallels he drew between the biblical New Testament and Josephus' Wars of the Jews.

If he does have actual first-hand accounts, that would change things considerably, otherwise the claims can be dismissed by Church orthodoxy as others have been - as unsubstantiated.

Edited by Leonardo

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wow

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Hi,

I'm glad you posted that "Which One Is Your Jesus?" video because it's a good one, and I've seen it months ago. The Romans may have, indeed, manipulated the messiah story, but one cannot go around Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 7:14. They can't touch that old prophet. Thing is, the "Lord" is not a mere messiah, He is Immanuel, which is "El is with us." He's basically an Avatar, not just an "anointed" man. Was there a "Jesus"? Saint Paul said he saw Jesus (yes, that name), and He spoke to Paul. The Romans didn't concoct Paul. At any rate, there are many stories (interpretations) and pieces of the puzzle floating around out there waiting to be discovered and "created" and no doubt, deliberately kept in the dark. One might even say that Satan is doing an overtime to confuse people. This messiah label is actually like a MacGuffin, and in the end, it's unnecessary because it's the wrong designation.

I do know that there is a power that I called "Lord" in the Void (and my "awareness" assumed that it was Jesus Christ), and apparently, many religions are waiting for a coming Avatar. Again, the "Lord" is Immanuel...an Avatar of "El," not a messiah, an "anointed" human creature. Jesus or not, the NT is a tool to prepare the way for this "Love" God because the true "Lord" is all about love.

Peace.

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Lord

zzzzlord.jpg

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Hi,

I'm glad you posted that "Which One Is Your Jesus?" video because it's a good one, and I've seen it months ago. The Romans may have, indeed, manipulated the messiah story, but one cannot go around Isaiah 9:6 and Isaiah 7:14. They can't touch that old prophet. Thing is, the "Lord" is not a mere messiah, He is Immanuel, which is "El is with us." He's basically an Avatar, not just an "anointed" man. Was there a "Jesus"? Saint Paul said he saw Jesus (yes, that name), and He spoke to Paul. The Romans didn't concoct Paul. At any rate, there are many stories (interpretations) and pieces of the puzzle floating around out there waiting to be discovered and "created" and no doubt, deliberately kept in the dark. One might even say that Satan is doing an overtime to confuse people. This messiah label is actually like a MacGuffin, and in the end, it's unnecessary because it's the wrong designation.

I do know that there is a power that I called "Lord" in the Void (and my "awareness" assumed that it was Jesus Christ), and apparently, many religions are waiting for a coming Avatar. Again, the "Lord" is Immanuel...an Avatar of "El," not a messiah, an "anointed" human creature. Jesus or not, the NT is a tool to prepare the way for this "Love" God because the true "Lord" is all about love.

Peace.

OY!

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Doesn't really matter does it. This all happened 2000 years ago and modern people educated in the most modern western countries still accept Christ in faith. He heals, changes hearts and minds, and brings peace to peoples minds he transforms the body and spirit of modern humans just as he has done for two millenia. So really his origins are irrelevant ( I Have my own quite conventional opinion about him.) Belief in him continues to heal and empower people. It eases grieving, allows forgiveness and teaches so much about how we should behave towards our selves and others.

it can turn a Pakistani killer/politician, into a preacher of love forgiveness and peace, as well as bringing him back from fear and suicidal thoughts at the way his life was going, with many people trying to assassinate him, and he in turn killing his rivals.

It can transform an alcoholic, an abuser or a violent person, or a hells angel in the same way by transforming the person within them and creating a "new man" from the old one..

It can bring peace, strength, and power to the abused, the crippled, and the weak/down trodden, in the world.

With this transformative power, it is no wonder that this message, and faith in him, endures into the post modern age.

Edited by Mr Walker
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"Atwill asserts that Christianity did not really begin as a religion, but a sophisticated government project, a kind of propaganda exercise used to pacify the subjects of the Roman Empire. "Jewish sects in Palestine at the time, who were waiting for a prophesied warrior Messiah, were a constant source of violent insurrection during the first century," he explains. "When the Romans had exhausted conventional means of quashing rebellion, they switched to psychological warfare. They surmised that the way to stop the spread of zealous Jewish missionary activity was to create a competing belief system. That's when the 'peaceful' Messiah story was invented. Instead of inspiring warfare, this Messiah urged turn-the-other-cheek pacifism and encouraged Jews to 'give onto Caesar' and pay their taxes to Rome."

This entire thesis is rather absurd on the face of it. Jesus came along at the height of the Roman Empire and there was no need to engage in the theatrics proposed in this work by "Atwill". Not to mention the fact that this sort of wag-the-dog politcal subterfuge was not yet invented at the time given that brute force smack-downs were heretofore so very effective. The total and complete annihilation of the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora in 70AD made the Jews a non-problem. The fact of the persecution of the early Christians in 65-300AD time frame further undermines this idea of the Christian movement being a Roman fabrication to quell a puny Jewish revolt that never expanded beyond the borders of Palestine.

[spartacus -- now *that* was a revolution that the Romans really needed to worry about].

There is a fair amount of very real historical evidence that Jesus was a real man who walked the Earth (Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger). The real debate is over what he actually taught. We are presented with the canonical Gospels from only four of twelve Apostles. With the discovery of the Nag Hamaddi scrolls and more recently the Gospel of Judas the waters are now considerably more muddied.

But this incessant campaign to deny the historical Jesus is growing tedious.

Who are these characters pushing that nonsense?

?

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OY!

Do I believe in Satan? I, personally, wouldn't discount it. There are negative forces in this world. But...you always have the choice to ignore them.

Jesus. "Lord" is more like it. That's the name I called that entity in Void. It's emanation is "unconditional love." "Unconditional love," unlike what most people believe, is not an emotion. It is pure power to give that fullness in one's "awareness." I wonder why you're so invested in Jesus. Isaiah's Immanuel is an Avatar, not a messiah. You seem to ignore that. Oi.

No one can get around Isaiah.

Peace.

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I personally do not think it matters if it is true or false. No importance AT ALL.

Christianity IS becoming less an less among people now .. the groups of christianity and other faiths that are around are more of a 'pick and choose what you want to follow' variety, who will ignore some parts of the bible and grasp onto others, or admit 'yes many evils in bible, baby killing, et et et et but.. that was then.. this is now'.. type of thing.

As the pick and choose moves forward, less and less is being kept and more and more ignored or tossed out for being just 'tradition'.

There will always be some groups around, but I would say by the time my great great grandchildren are grandparents themselves, religion will be almost a 'moot point' and tossed into the bin of 'superstition and willfull ignorance'.

And bad things will STILL happen and good things will STILL happen.

Science in all it's glory, is wonderful for one very very huge reason.

It is admittedly ever changing, ever growing. It does not DICTATE one life in order to gain some life afte life. It is not even about disproving or proving god.

It is about change. What we learn today can change tomorrow when something else it learned, science fact can become 'oh wow.. NOW look what we learned that changed what we thought we kenw!' and it does htis without shame.

It is about growth and moving forward, never about standing still on one thing.

People are scared of science because it is NOT standing still. Because evry so often we disprove something we thought was proven.

But that is the wonder of science.

And more and more youths today who has access to multiple media platforms, are learning this for themselves.

SO jesus being made up? I always believed it was. But true or false on who made it up, is no longer important.

And for THAT.. I am glad.

Edited by willowdreams
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Science hasn't found the cure for the common cold not to mention cancer.

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Science hasn't found the cure for the common cold not to mention cancer.

Nor Christianity.
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I could quote St. Paul but being in love with my husband would make me sound hypocritical. I applaud science and medical innovations. Science doesn't have all the answers. God has the key to eternal life.

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I could quote St. Paul but being in love with my husband would make me sound hypocritical. I applaud science and medical innovations. Science doesn't have all the answers. God has the key to eternal life.

If he does he hasn't offered it to his followers.
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I could quote St. Paul but being in love with my husband would make me sound hypocritical. I applaud science and medical innovations. Science doesn't have all the answers. God has the key to eternal life.

Interesting, except that Christians don't seem to live longer than the rest of us.
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Science hasn't found the cure for the common cold not to mention cancer.

so............?

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I could quote St. Paul but being in love with my husband would make me sound hypocritical. I applaud science and medical innovations. Science doesn't have all the answers. God has the key to eternal life.

no one has proven there is an eternal life.. let alone a key.

science never claimed to have all the answers, but it does work towards finding the answers

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This entire thesis is rather absurd on the face of it. Jesus came along at the height of the Roman Empire and there was no need to engage in the theatrics proposed in this work by "Atwill".

hello, Labyrinthus, welcome to UM.

Regarding the above. I believe Atwill proposes a considered and believable reason for this issue you raise. At the height of the Roman Empire, the requirement for Rome to extend it's military presence into and along the expanded frontier meant internal dissents requiring extra 'policing efforts' were draining to the Empire out-of-proportion to the problem. A non-military (and so, non-economically draining) solution would be viewed favourably by Rome. Such a scenario is both plausible and feasible.

Not to mention the fact that this sort of wag-the-dog politcal subterfuge was not yet invented at the time given that brute force smack-downs were heretofore so very effective.

The subterfuge and political nuances of the various dialogues between Jesus and the Jewish authorities in scripture would seem to put the lie to your claim. Politics was a highly evolved art by the time in question, and probably was so going back to the prehistory of human civilisation.

But this incessant campaign to deny the historical Jesus is growing tedious.

The 'campaign' promoting a historical Jesus has been going on for over 2000 years, so I am curious as to how long a 'campaign' should go on for before becoming 'tedious' in your view?

Edited by Leonardo

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This entire thesis is rather absurd on the face of it. Jesus came along at the height of the Roman Empire and there was no need to engage in the theatrics proposed in this work by "Atwill". Not to mention the fact that this sort of wag-the-dog politcal subterfuge was not yet invented at the time given that brute force smack-downs were heretofore so very effective. The total and complete annihilation of the Jews, the destruction of Jerusalem and the diaspora in 70AD made the Jews a non-problem. The fact of the persecution of the early Christians in 65-300AD time frame further undermines this idea of the Christian movement being a Roman fabrication to quell a puny Jewish revolt that never expanded beyond the borders of Palestine.

[spartacus -- now *that* was a revolution that the Romans really needed to worry about].

There is a fair amount of very real historical evidence that Jesus was a real man who walked the Earth (Josephus, Tacitus, Pliny the Younger). The real debate is over what he actually taught. We are presented with the canonical Gospels from only four of twelve Apostles. With the discovery of the Nag Hamaddi scrolls and more recently the Gospel of Judas the waters are now considerably more muddied.

But this incessant campaign to deny the historical Jesus is growing tedious.

Who are these characters pushing that nonsense?

?

LOL I think it is funny and actually points to the reality of Jesus Christ, so much trouble coming up with so many theories about him. When in reality, the NT is actually dealing with a real man, real experiences of his rising from the dead, and the changing of lives because of this awesome reality. Jesus is real, an historical character, and he has to be dealt with. People deal with him the best way they know how I guess.

Peace

Mark

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OMFG WILLOWDREAMS YOUR SIGNATURE IS DRIVING ME INSANE IM ALREADY HUNG OVER I SPENT LIKE TEN MINUTES TRYING TO KILL THAT BUG UHHHHGGGJGHGHGHHG.

:whistle:

I just posted the article, knowing the consequences of the same debate that's been inflicted on this site over and over.

I do not venture into such debates. I follow esoteric teachings in a way, and I study Qlipoth texts. No,I do not strictly follow anything. I am also a very astrological man.

Though, not to sound naive or cruel, but I do find the theory of your all-loving, peaceful, white "Messiah" to be rather...droll. ;)

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OMFG WILLOWDREAMS YOUR SIGNATURE IS DRIVING ME INSANE IM ALREADY HUNG OVER I SPENT LIKE TEN MINUTES TRYING TO KILL THAT BUG UHHHHGGGJGHGHGHHG.

:whistle:

I just posted the article, knowing the consequences of the same debate that's been inflicted on this site over and over.

I do not venture into such debates. I follow esoteric teachings in a way, and I study Qlipoth texts. No,I do not strictly follow anything. I am also a very astrological man.

Though, not to sound naive or cruel, but I do find the theory of your all-loving, peaceful, white "Messiah" to be rather...droll. ;)

Everyone has an opinion, then there is experience. Many have found Jesus as truly Risen, loving and a healing force in their lives. Love is what the heart seeks, the fact that I believe we are made in the image of God, would point that love is also what God is. A loving relationship with the infinite is what deals with the inner thirst of our souls, at least I believe that.

I agree with you about Willow's "bug", the first time I saw it I thought it was on my screen :unsure2: , kind of creepy, but from such a nice lady.

Peace

Mark

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