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Paranoid Android

An exercise in understanding

16 posts in this topic

I vaguely remember starting a similar thread to this several years ago, but I think it's time to bring this topic up again. On these boards, it's often asked, "what do you believe". Simple. But it's not a question that really helps us understand the beliefs of others. So my question is:

What don't you believe about God, but you must answer from a believer's point of view?

For example, if you're a Christian and wish to share about Buddhism, start with a phrase along the lines of "I'm a Christian normally, but today I'm Buddhist and would like to tell you about it". People can be encouraged then to probe you further on the nature of your non-beliefs. So a follow-up question might be "Can you elaborate on the Noble Truths, I'm not quite sure I get your meaning". To which the Christian would reply with information about said Noble Truths.

In this manner I think we may learn about other people and their motivations. It may require research because we don't know everything about other belief systems, but we have to approach the answer from a believing point of view to gain insight into the mind of others.

So let's have some fun, and be respectful -the last time I began a thread similar to this, one person began by saying (paraphrasing) "today I'm a Christian and for a nonsensical reason I believe in a Jewish zombie and his mythical sky daddy, and believe that if I lobotomise myself to his wishes I'll spend eternity in clouds while everyone else burns forever". This type of response is the exact OPPOSITE of what I'm hoping to achieve - I'd like understanding to be developed, even if it's confronting, as opposed to further derision and strife.

So go crazy, enjoy, and I'll see everyone on the Flipside.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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... for today , i am an athiest ...

the order of the universe can be explained with out a system of logical order that has a force of will behind it .

when a person dies , they are worm food. you , your person is a machine that is a fractal replication of a crystal called DNA.

... all life on earth is a fractal replication of a crystal that self replicates .... and this crystal is very good at doing one thing... makeing copies of itself .

what we call laws is no more complex than field effect force applied to reduction of function... the form follows function.

we make it seem so fancy and balanced... its not balanced at all . exstinctions have come and gone since the first moments in the primordel soup... amino asids have been killing each other off since the very start , in a deadly war of musical chairs .. and tag ...

to say a god was behind all this is laughable . most religons are just a complex tenent vs. landlord screening process any way ... a way for control freaks to get weak minded people to follow rules ... " better be good or god will get you " ... or more to the point " god says its time to kill the bad guys "... you know , the bad guys who failed the tenant landlord screening process... and we need to remove them from earth as well.

the last thing that is true about religon is that they want to discover anything about god . if you want to talk about god... you get drunk , go into the garage and listen to music and talk about god .

if you talk about god in a church , they will ask you to leave , or tell you that its not the doctrine that they beleive in.

they will call the police and have you arrested for disturbing the peace if you make sense .

if its islam.. they will kill you if you talk about god in the wrong country .

so, if we want to talk about god... it has absolutely nothing to do with civilized people .

in the scientific method... repeat the expariment. show me a soul . show me any evidance that a soul is real or that we can measure it in a repeatable way . define the word god , and give any repeatable evidance of god being real .

human kind is a meat machine . when the machine stops working , the parts of the machine are recycled ...

but if you recycle a soup can into a chevie bumper...the bumper does not remember being a soup can.

( post script . how did i do android? )

Edited by onereaderone
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For today, I am Christian in that I believe the teachings of Jesus Christ are profound and worthy of a life's work in understanding. But you see, there my christianity as many dogmas would have it ends.

I know there is a God because my life has given me that surety, in too many ways, some very personal to document but there you have it. I asked alot of questions and received some incredible insights and answers - and also alot more questions, I love the journey that has given me and will have so much more exploring to do.

I have no knowledge about whether Jesus is the one true Son of God as Paul would have it, but he is definitely a Son of God in the best meaning of the word or as far as any man can reach to be in my own esteemed opinion of him. Also he made a sacrifice of his life that only a true Son of God would make, so this is a point of common dogma where I differ from some others, a subtle but important distinction. If there is more for me to know on this matter, I have no doubt the time will come when I will know because it is a question which means alot to me - it is the difference between being swayed by religious dogma or knowing something as a fact.

Moreover, I see God in many many places and wisdom teachings other than christianity alone, I think of him as a Universal non-partisan force that is there for us all and approaches us each according to our understanding, tradition and capacity to recognise and understand his presence within the boundaries of what life has made us capable of comprehending at any given time.

My approach is through self knowledge and observation, I firmly believe that the answers are written inside us - as the Kingdom of Heaven is inside us and that to know oneself is to know those answers.

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Thanks, 1 reader 1. Could you explain what you mean by us being a "fractal reflection"of DNA? I'm not a scientist, and I think I know what you mean, based on the context -that we are a sum of our parts, just the macro version of the billions of micro strands that make us "us". But of you could clarify I'd appreciate it.

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For today, I am Christian in that I believe the teachings of Jesus Christ are profound and worthy of a life's work in understanding. But you see, there my christianity as many dogmas would have it ends.

I know there is a God because my life has given me that surety, in too many ways, some very personal to document but there you have it. I asked alot of questions and received some incredible insights and answers - and also alot more questions, I love the journey that has given me and will have so much more exploring to do.

I have no knowledge about whether Jesus is the one true Son of God as Paul would have it, but he is definitely a Son of God in the best meaning of the word or as far as any man can reach to be in my own esteemed opinion of him. Also he made a sacrifice of his life that only a true Son of God would make, so this is a point of common dogma where I differ from some others, a subtle but important distinction. If there is more for me to know on this matter, I have no doubt the time will come when I will know because it is a question which means alot to me - it is the difference between being swayed by religious dogma or knowing something as a fact.

Moreover, I see God in many many places and wisdom teachings other than christianity alone, I think of him as a Universal non-partisan force that is there for us all and approaches us each according to our understanding, tradition and capacity to recognise and understand his presence within the boundaries of what life has made us capable of comprehending at any given time.

My approach is through self knowledge and observation, I firmly believe that the answers are written inside us - as the Kingdom of Heaven is inside us and that to know oneself is to know those answers.

Ditto.

I don't really understand PA's request, but your post sums up my actual basic feelings. There are additional thoughts, complexities and knowledge involved for me, but t his says it simply and accurately.

Edited by Mr Walker
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I will give it a go. Today I am a gaean. I believe that all of earth is part of a unified cosmic consciousness. As a self aware human I have a particular duty to walk softly on the earth, to maintain a small ecological foot print, and to live in a sustainable way. While all life has a hierarchy on earth, it is all an essential part of an interwoven web of life, and I can either destroy or repair that web by my own actions and life style. Thus it is ok for me to eat meat occasionally, but I need to realise that meat eating is not sustainable and is destroying Gaea. To protect and care for Gaea. I should not do things like travel by air, or eat food which comes from far away .I should use sustainable energy and minimise my use of non renewable resources, by never buying anything new without good reason, and never buying any thing at all that I do not need, or use, regularly.

Ie not be a part of the throw away economy (As an example I just bought a new computer. My old ones were 10 years, 13 years and 17 years, old They still operated, but could not cope with modern advances in technology.) My wife got the 10 year old one and it meets her needs adequately The two older ones I suppose will have to be thrown out but I will really miss the wonderful 1997 Toshiba laptop which is still operating perfectly and appears quite modern and stylish.

I don't own or use a mobile phone, because i do not need one. My car is now five years old. My last two cars lasted about 12 years, (and 500 000 kilometres) and this one, ( which is approaching 200 000 ks) I hope will last the same. If cars were better made and lasted longer, I would be happy using the same one for 20 years. I finally bought a smart TV. My old one was 10 years old, and again, could not cope with changes in digital technology. I once had a mobile phone that lasted 10 years. It was working perfectly well when the system switched over to digita,l and it became useless. I refused to buy another one, which was just as well because the system has changed twice since then, requiring people to update their phones. .

Edited by Mr Walker

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Ditto.

I don't really understand PA's request, but your post sums up my actual basic feelings. There are additional thoughts, complexities and knowledge involved for me, but t his says it simply and accurately.

I'm trying to get people to think about world views from the point of view that others hold. By putting ourselves in the shoes of others, and opening the door for people to question us about those beliefs we need to empathise with another view, and often actually go out and research the answer. When someone asks us about our beliefs, it's easy to lay out our doctrines and thought processes - we have spent time moulding our views in a way that makes sense to us. But if I'm asked about Mormon beliefs (for example) all I have is the information from one or two UM members over the years, plus a six-week course I took with an American Mormon door-knocker, and a few random browsings through the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price that I was given by that door-knocker. If I were to post as a Mormon I'd have to get into the mind of a Mormon and begin to "get" what they are about. Then if a Mormon wanted to challenge me they could try and test me by asking me a question and seeing how well I did. I'd then have to research and hope I could answer well enough for a believer in that belief to say "yes, that's also what I believe".

I was going to respond in a day or so from a Nihilist point of view (I have a copy of my post saved in the memory banks of my phone). But I'm going to change that to something more well known, and post as a Mormon, try and get into what it means to actually be a Mormon. I'll get that done in the next day or so :)

I will give it a go. Today I am a gaean. I believe that all of earth is part of a unified cosmic consciousness. As a self aware human I have a particular duty to walk softly on the earth, to maintain a small ecological foot print, and to live in a sustainable way. While all life has a hierarchy on earth, it is all an essential part of an interwoven web of life, and I can either destroy or repair that web by my own actions and life style. Thus it is ok for me to eat meat occasionally, but I need to realise that meat eating is not sustainable and is destroying Gaea. To protect and care for Gaea. I should not do things like travel by air, or eat food which comes from far away .I should use sustainable energy and minimise my use of non renewable resources, by never buying anything new without good reason, and never buying any thing at all that I do not need, or use, regularly.

Ie not be a part of the throw away economy (As an example I just bought a new computer. My old ones were 10 years, 13 years and 17 years, old They still operated, but could not cope with modern advances in technology.) My wife got the 10 year old one and it meets her needs adequately The two older ones I suppose will have to be thrown out but I will really miss the wonderful 1997 Toshiba laptop which is still operating perfectly and appears quite modern and stylish.

I don't own or use a mobile phone, because i do not need one. My car is now five years old. My last two cars lasted about 12 years, (and 500 000 kilometres) and this one, ( which is approaching 200 000 ks) I hope will last the same. If cars were better made and lasted longer, I would be happy using the same one for 20 years. I finally bought a smart TV. My old one was 10 years old, and again, could not cope with changes in digital technology. I once had a mobile phone that lasted 10 years. It was working perfectly well when the system switched over to digita,l and it became useless. I refused to buy another one, which was just as well because the system has changed twice since then, requiring people to update their phones. .

Hi, I'm not sure I understand. What makes a gaean different to a conscientious environmentalist? I could see any "greenie" thinking the same. All I can see as different is that you believe in a "cosmic consciousness" of the earth. Could you tell me more about this and what it means to you as a gaean? Thanks.

As an aside, this is what I was hoping to achieve - now you need to get into the mind of a real gaean and tell me what Gaia actually is (honestly, all I know I learnt from Final Fantasy and Avatar and Captain Planet), maybe you can help me with more?

Edited by Paranoid Android

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I'm trying to get people to think about world views from the point of view that others hold. By putting ourselves in the shoes of others, and opening the door for people to question us about those beliefs we need to empathise with another view, and often actually go out and research the answer. When sometime asks us about our beliefs, it's easy to lay out our doctrines and thought processes - we have spent time moulding our views in a way that makes sense to us. But if I'm asked about Mormon beliefs (for example) all I have is the information from one or two UM members over the years, plus a six-week course I took with an American Mormon door-knocker, and a few random browsings through the Book of Mormon and the Pearl of Great Price that I was given by that door-knocker. If I were to post as a Mormon I'd have to get into the mind of a Mormon and begin to "get" what they are about. Then if a Mormon wanted to challenge me they could try and test me by asking me a question and seeing how well I did. I'd then have to research and hope I could answer well enough for a believer in that belief to say "yes, that's also what I believe".

I was going to respond in a day or so from a Nihilist point of view (I have a copy of my post saved in the memory banks of my phone). But I'm going to change that to something more well known, and post as a Mormon, try and get into what it Mensa to actually be a Mormon. I'll get that done in the next day or so :)

Hi, I'm not sure I understand. What makes a gaean different to a conscientious environmentalist? I could see any "greenie" thinking the same. All I can see as different is that you believe in a "cosmic consciousness" of the earth. Could you tell me more about this and what it means to you as a gaean? Thanks.

As an aside, this is what I was hoping to achieve - now you need to get into the mind of a real gaean and tell me what Gaia actually is (honestly, all I know I learnt from Final Fantasy and Avatar and Captain Planet), maybe you can help me with more?

Ok it comes to motivation. As a christian, I am motivated by my belief in the teachings of christ. As a geasn my life is motivated by my belief in the life and intervconnectedness of the planet The planet and indeed the universe is an interconnected part of consciousness.

So it is possible to communicate with animals plants etc as a part of that consciousness. Thus my ethics and behaviour are predicated on my belief that earth (gaea)_ is a living planet which i can hurt or harm. All plants animals and humans form part of this connection and while it is not wrong to use thease resources one must do wisely sustainable and equitably i cannot destroy another species jus tfor my own survival for example.

if you have seen avatar this closelty represents my own experiences and beliefs as a gean. ie that even our consciousness might be stored and later reproduced as a part of the gaen consciousness So, a mixture of belie,f experience and logical ethics and moralities motivates me to live by my beliefs as a gaean just as they would do if I was a christian.

Inmy personal intepretation of gaenism I see people as important. We must reduce our population and live sustainabl,y but we have a right to live in and use gaea as much as any other living organism Our abilities give us a duty and a potential to improve the health and ecosystems of gaea over the long term.

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Mr Walker, so does the interconnectedness of life governed by a conscious mind, that can hear our thoughts and grant our wishes? In Avatar, the main character was able to get Eywa to intervene in the fight and ally the creatures of the planet to fight against the humans. Can this happen in the real world where Gaia may intervene? If so, how does this happen?

By speaking to the planet, is this imbuing the planet with its own godlike (for lack of a better term) properties. Does this extend to the rest of the universe - each planet supporting its own deity, or is the universe connected in a super-interconnectedness? If we are part of this universe does this mean we are part of deity in traditional Gaean philosophy? Or is this anthropomorphising things too much?

I'd like to know traditional Gaean views on this, thanks.

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Mr Walker, so does the interconnectedness of life governed by a conscious mind, that can hear our thoughts and grant our wishes? In Avatar, the main character was able to get Eywa to intervene in the fight and ally the creatures of the planet to fight against the humans. Can this happen in the real world where Gaia may intervene? If so, how does this happen?

By speaking to the planet, is this imbuing the planet with its own godlike (for lack of a better term) properties. Does this extend to the rest of the universe - each planet supporting its own deity, or is the universe connected in a super-interconnectedness? If we are part of this universe does this mean we are part of deity in traditional Gaean philosophy? Or is this anthropomorphising things too much?

I'd like to know traditional Gaean views on this, thanks.

Certainly hear our thought And not exactly grant wishes but enable abilities. So never getting lost in the wilderness Speaking with gaea to find water sources. Having a good relationship with animals or a green thumb. The intellect of gaea interacts with other sapient creatures such as humans, so at present the only ones it can influence to save the planet are us, because we can hear gaea and we can act .Although I can and do speak with plants and animals and hear their responses, I do not believe they have independent consciousness. What I hear is the voice of gaea speaking through them, just as when a Christian hears the voice of god speaking through various forms or avatars.

I am not sure about "imbuing". The consciousness exists and we can interact with i.t I do not imbue my wife with ability to speak whenever I speak to her. It is a communication between similar but different intelligences. the universe is connected via consciousness through a "neural network I suspect, from observation and using it that this is an engineered network, but it might be somehow a natural evolved product of the universe. Anyone on earth who has learned to communicate with local consciousness can extend their consciousness via this neural network out into space and to other planets galaxies and even other 'universes"

This of course is the mystical or spiritual element of gaeism. The practical and daily life/works, inspired by the belief is much more important, and can happen without any mystical involvement, as is true for most Christian believers.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker, can I ask if this is how other Gaeans would respond if they were answering (if a Gaean were reading you, would they be agreeing with you), or is it how you would incorporate Gaean belief into your life if you were to do so. Maybe I'm reading to much into it, but I get the impression that if you substitute the consciousness of the earth with the consciousness of Christ then you're pretty much describing what you believe . And since you've said in the past that you follow Christianity simply because that is your social choice, and you could choose any social system, I'm wondering if you're doing that now with Gaean belief.

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Since I began this thread I suppose it's my turn to put my head on the chopping block:

Today I'm a Mormon. It's easy for some people to laugh at us and dismiss us as polygamists with an underwear fetish but it's not at all accurate. We believe that Jesus was the son of God, but the Bible has suffered copyist errors and mistranslations over the centuries, so God revealed himself to Joseph Smith, to put God's people back on track and this testament to Jesus can be found in the Book of Mormon.

You see, when Jesus died, he left his message in the hands of the twelve apostles. But as the apostles one by one also died, the leadership group crumbled. Through the angel Moroni's guidance, Smith reestablished the apostleship, and now there are 12 new apostles to carry out the leadership of God's church. When one dies, the 11 others choose a twelfth apostle, in prayerful submission to God (just as Jesus chose the apostle Paul to replace Judas Iscariot).

Because of this leadership, it is God's true church on earth. Those who call themselves "Christians" are in fact not, they have become a law unto themselves. Imagine if one of my students wanted to drive but had no licence, and I write a note saying, "I, Paranoid Android, hereby give permission for this student to drive", will a police officer accept it? No, I don't have that kind of authority. Only by going through the government of your state or country can that authority be given. So it is with God. Only by going through God's church, the Church of the Latter Day Saints, does it work.

Obviously there's more to my beliefs than this (details of Mormon life, doctrines, etc), so please ask me questions and I'll try and answer as best I can to why I believe what I believe about Mormonism.

Edited by Paranoid Android

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Mr Walker, can I ask if this is how other Gaeans would respond if they were answering (if a Gaean were reading you, would they be agreeing with you), or is it how you would incorporate Gaean belief into your life if you were to do so. Maybe I'm reading to much into it, but I get the impression that if you substitute the consciousness of the earth with the consciousness of Christ then you're pretty much describing what you believe . And since you've said in the past that you follow Christianity simply because that is your social choice, and you could choose any social system, I'm wondering if you're doing that now with Gaean belief.

You are making my head hurt.

I tried to answer as you asked, but of course my "gaean beliefs" reflect a more complete total world view (as would happen if, like you, I tried to "be" a Mormon)

I actually studied for two years with Mormons and a year with jehovahs witnesses, just out of interest for thier beliefs and a desire to understand them better.

I do not know how another gaean might respond I assume there are as many differences among gaeans as there are among Christians.

I have just responded how I would do so as a gean. The religious surveys we sometimes do on this site, show me to be more Jainist, Buddhist and gaean than traditional Christian but with, naturally, a tendenc y towards Judaism or seventh day Adventism in my lifestyle.

My gaean beliefs DO correspond, as a geography and history teacher, to my commitment to sustainability and population control in my life. They do reflect how I live my life trying to minimise my ecological footprint and they do refect my working relationship with my environment and the worlds ecosystem. I do live by gaean principles because of deep ethical beliefs. Those also correspond to christ's messages about how to live and what is important in life. My spirituality encompasses the spirituality of the earth and all living things, even if only because, as a thinking human being, I can make it so.

here is a part of what at least one other gaean believes. I agree with parts and disagree with other parts.

Gaean Values

The sacred texts of Gaean religion are the Earth and the cosmos, and Gaean laws are the laws of Nature as revealed by science and magic. Gaean religious beliefs center on the concept that divinity is both immanent and transcendent, that there is no limit to the sacred. Restoration of the divine feminine, as symbolized by the Triple Goddess, and embodied in Mother Earth and all people, is a paramount goal in Gaean religion. As this restoration proceeds, the sacred masculine must be honored and not be neglected, because spiritual wholeness requires all polarities to be honored.

Rather than seeing creation as a pyramid with God or mankind on the top, Gaeans map creation as a multidimensional web of relationships, and each thing, be it living or inanimate, is a node in that web. It follows that an essential aspect of Gaean religion is holism, the belief that all of reality is an interconnected whole that has emergent properties the component parts lack.

Many Gaeans either are pantheists, believing that God is identical with everything, or are panentheists, believing that divine spirit is present in everything. Belief in reincarnation also is widespread in Gaean religion, as it is in Eastern religions. In the West, belief in reincarnation was found in Gnosticism and Manichaeanism, and passed from Pythagoras and Plato through Neoplatonism to Western occultism. Followers of the monotheistic Abrahamic religions - Samaratinism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - are conspicuous in not espousing a formal belief in reincarnation. However, esoteric Judaism - the Kabbalah - contains numerous references to the transmigration of souls. Belief in reincarnation also is found in esoteric Islam, as in the writings of Rumi. Reincarnation has obvious moral implications for such contentious issues as abortion and the death penalty.

Gaeans believe the human body to be sacred; it is the temple of our Self. Because we hold complete spiritual autonomy over our person, the state has no right to control our beliefs, what we ingest, or our sexuality. Community concerns in these matters rightfully enter only when our behavior harms other parts of Gaea.

I don't believe in reincarnation but most of the rest I can go along with at least.

Edited by Mr Walker

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You are making my head hurt.

I tried to answer as you asked, but of course my "gaean beliefs" reflect a more complete total world view (as would happen if, like you, I tried to "be" a Mormon)

Sorry if I'm making your head hurt, but you seem to have misunderstood my reasons for starting this thread. If you posted, as I did, about Mormonism, I suspect you'd mould it to fit your world outlook. But consider my response about Mormonism. I've taken views I do not believe to be true and presented them as true. I don't believe the angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith. But because I'm a Mormon today, I do believe that the only true church is the church of the latter-day Saints. In challenging myself to think like a Mormon I need to move away from my conservative evangelical protestantism who believes in the inerrancy of the Bible, and accept the Bible is corrupted and God sent us the Book of Mormon to set us on the right path again.

In doing this, I accomplish three things (possibly more): 1- challenge myself to let my beliefs be false, 2- empathise with someone from a different view to try and see things their way, and 3- research another belief system so I can actually know what it is someone else believes.

Does that clarify? Perhaps try and put yourself in the shoes of a Young Earth Creationist? One of the truly fire-and-brimstone types that think gaean philosophy is Satanism. Challenge yourself to a worldview totally incompatible with your own. Not necessarily the one I suggested, but something that requires you to think like someone that is not you.

I actually studied for two years with Mormons and a year with jehovahs witnesses, just out of interest for thier beliefs and a desire to understand them better.

excellent, then could you ask me a question about their doctrine and I'll try and respond as best I can as a Mormon. You can tell me how close I am.

I do not know how another gaean might respond I assume there are as many differences among gaeans as there are among Christians.

I have just responded how I would do so as a gean. The religious surveys we sometimes do on this site, show me to be more Jainist, Buddhist and gaean than traditional Christian but with, naturally, a tendenc y towards Judaism or seventh day Adventism in my lifestyle.

My gaean beliefs DO correspond, as a geography and history teacher, to my commitment to sustainability and population control in my life. They do reflect how I live my life trying to minimise my ecological footprint and they do refect my working relationship with my environment and the worlds ecosystem. I do live by gaean principles because of deep ethical beliefs. Those also correspond to christ's messages about how to live and what is important in life. My spirituality encompasses the spirituality of the earth and all living things, even if only because, as a thinking human being, I can make it so.

here is a part of what at least one other gaean believes. I agree with parts and disagree with other parts.

Gaean Values

The sacred texts of Gaean religion are the Earth and the cosmos, and Gaean laws are the laws of Nature as revealed by science and magic. Gaean religious beliefs center on the concept that divinity is both immanent and transcendent, that there is no limit to the sacred. Restoration of the divine feminine, as symbolized by the Triple Goddess, and embodied in Mother Earth and all people, is a paramount goal in Gaean religion. As this restoration proceeds, the sacred masculine must be honored and not be neglected, because spiritual wholeness requires all polarities to be honored.

Rather than seeing creation as a pyramid with God or mankind on the top, Gaeans map creation as a multidimensional web of relationships, and each thing, be it living or inanimate, is a node in that web. It follows that an essential aspect of Gaean religion is holism, the belief that all of reality is an interconnected whole that has emergent properties the component parts lack.

Many Gaeans either are pantheists, believing that God is identical with everything, or are panentheists, believing that divine spirit is present in everything. Belief in reincarnation also is widespread in Gaean religion, as it is in Eastern religions. In the West, belief in reincarnation was found in Gnosticism and Manichaeanism, and passed from Pythagoras and Plato through Neoplatonism to Western occultism. Followers of the monotheistic Abrahamic religions - Samaratinism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam - are conspicuous in not espousing a formal belief in reincarnation. However, esoteric Judaism - the Kabbalah - contains numerous references to the transmigration of souls. Belief in reincarnation also is found in esoteric Islam, as in the writings of Rumi. Reincarnation has obvious moral implications for such contentious issues as abortion and the death penalty.

Gaeans believe the human body to be sacred; it is the temple of our Self. Because we hold complete spiritual autonomy over our person, the state has no right to control our beliefs, what we ingest, or our sexuality. Community concerns in these matters rightfully enter only when our behavior harms other parts of Gaea.

I don't believe in reincarnation but most of the rest I can go along with at least.

Thanks for the info :tu: Edited by Paranoid Android

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Thanks, 1 reader 1. Could you explain what you mean by us being a "fractal reflection"of DNA? I'm not a scientist, and I think I know what you mean, based on the context -that we are a sum of our parts, just the macro version of the billions of micro strands that make us "us". But of you could clarify I'd appreciate it.

this is kinda hard if i do not have a god to fall back on... let me give the truth ... then the athiest veiw .

fractal = fractional dimension's ... that is ... a dimension has three qualitys ... 1) infinite quality , finite quality , a base measurement system .

however , you can have 1.43434343... dimesion , or a 3.8 dimension . that is to say ... dimensions that have quaifide parameters or partical or space/time that modifies them . space time is a good exsample.

time has limitations on direction and scope , awareness has limitations out side [ before birth ] and [after death]

these are simptoms of a fractal being expressed... or simptom of a expression of a fractional dimension .

if god is the underlying order... then the order is as much god as the fractal being expressed... therefore ... it is kinda a back door proof of the reality of a god that does not belong to any ones church .

as the athiest.. i would ignore that unpleasentness... and state that :

amino asids have propertys of polarized sites that attract (and attack) other amino asids... and like any good crystal... bigger is better .

the propertys of the micro scale up , as the bigger it gets , the bigger it becomes .

much like a govermental function... of giving permission to some one who gives you the right to give that permission is the smallest part of goverment... states and nations give to their people order , which the people them selves order of their goverment ...

amino asids are no diffrent than people ...

as the athiest... i would say that the order is accidental .

as the athiest ... i would suggest... to the christian . go in to a room full of liberal democrats and say the word

" george bush "

you will have a pathological explosion of emotional rants that border on insainity .

not so diffrent than saying " richard nixon" in 1976 .

they lose bladder control and flop around like fish on a dock ... the proof of this is the loud cry that will follow this post .

my point is... when you see the involintary knee jerk response of liberal democrat robotic tape recorded massage playing ... christians are not so diffrent ...

the good intentions , the heart felt passion , the soul song singer

... that aside...

the words of a christian have no meaning .

you speak in a code that is meaningless to people who do not have the decoder ring and that days encryption kit.

there is no real diffrence between a liberal democrats mindless gabber about george bush , and your gabber about sin and death on a cross ... historicaly .... alot of people died no diffrent from christ did before he did.... and frankly speaking , more people died in exsactly the same way christ did after he did it... uniqueness is nothing christ can claim .

so either get your words right , and stop spouting meaningless words... or understand that nothing you say will be taken seriously .

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post script .

as the person who beleaves in a god ...

god does not beleave in god , he just is .

god does not go to church , does not belong to a religon , and frankly speaking never made a mistake .

muslims hate christians... christians hate catholics , catholics hate witchs .... and every one hates the jews...

god loves you all ... god made you all perfect , and thinks its funny when your all shouting at one another.

your all just the way he made you , no one is more or less right or wrong...

it all comes down to point of veiw.

god does not have a point of veiw.

but you do.

point of veiw is critical to understanding god. people who want me dead are bad... people who give me chocolet are good . your point of view is who you are.... and god made you perfect for your point of view.

do not try to make bad people have your point of view... god did not make them that way....

and " god never makes mistakes" and god made you.... and god made the bad guys.... your not suppost to understand!

be the person god made you to be... and try to stay away from the bad people.

its alright if you kill bad people... just don't make it your lifes work .

Edited by onereaderone

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