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markdohle

I ching, Tarot, how I used them

38 posts in this topic

I find systems like the I Ching and tarot interesting tools. I did use the Tarot for about 25 years but it has been years since I have used it. When I started to use the Tarot, I found the cards gave me a way to give names to aspects of my inner self, as well as the relationship they had with each other, and how I could stand outside and learn from each of them. Perhaps it gave a way for my fragmented self to speak to me and not just have vague irrational images.

The healthy thing about such system is that they give a way to take responsibility for ones life and choices, and can give alternate ways of thinking through a difficulty, or giving insight into some sort of spiritual problem. It is a tool, an extension of the unconscious, a mirror that can reflect back, and I believe that any spread will respond to a question that deals with the inner life. The future is always uncertain, changing with each small choice or large decision. To think the Tarot can direct ones life, is a mistake, for I believe some inferior aspect of ones unconscious, or fragmented personality can take over and lead one down a path of dependency that can be harmful.

The I Ching I believe is the same, though it is geared from my limited experience, to make one think...to go forward, stay put, or withdraw in any given situation. I used the I Ching a few times in my life, and the hexagrams were helpful.....though again any hexagram would be helpful because I let go of control for a short time and allowed the hexagram, or again the tarot symbols to work on me, to give me an angle to pursue in my deliberation.

Now I write, I believe the Tarot was a good instrument in allowing me to learn to name the many components parts of my inner life, which gave me a way to inscribe. Though even now, when I write it is more like allowing a flowing river of thoughts to come up, I seldom actually think about what I am writing, just let it flow. The sending for me is an important part of the process, and if not sent, then it seems that what I wrote is stillborn. Crazy I know.

In fact books do the same thing. As a Christian the Scripture speak to me in a certain way because of the relationship I have with it. Some people when they read scripture only clean negatives, or things to prove wrong, or to show some point that goes against faith or whatever Christianity may represent to them in a negative way. Again, it is relationship that will bring forth a certain kind of fruit, or not. Novels and other books, of philosophy, or psychology do the same thing I believe.

Of course I did not let many of my Christian friends know of my tarot or I Ching interest, they could not understand that divination is not the only way t use such tools. To me the tarot is like opening a book at a random page and reading, allowing whatever comes to up teach and lead towards some sort of inner integration.

I made the mistake of doing a few readings for people. For the most part, they just wanted me to tell them what to do, or to give them some sort of definite future, which I believe is counterproductive and even at times destructive on many levels. The seeking after wisdom, is one thing, to try to control the future is something else altogether

Edited by markdohle
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Tarot can be a good tool for evaluating your situation and gaining new angles, insights. I use it more as a reminder because you can practically pick any card, somehow they just seem to be fitting. Astrology background has taught me to interpret anything widely, so I usually pick a subject before doing tarots for myself. Like work, love life, this day... it's an odd but effective way to reassure myself.

I made the mistake of doing a few readings for people. For the most part, they just wanted me to tell them what to do, or to give them some sort of definite future, which I believe is counterproductive and even at times destructive on many levels. The seeking after wisdom, is one thing, to try to control the future is something else altogether

This is all fine and good with a little bit of humor, but I've avoided giving readings to these types in astrology when they ask something serious like losing a job or marriage. I dont like my readings to be used as replacements for taking care of your life and different aspects in it. I do divination, but not the definite kind, because the interpretations truly are diverse, there's not one and only one right interpretation of anything in astrology as far as I'm concerned, because I Ching, Tarot, Astrology, Hand palm reading, all those things read about the conditions our mind-body whole is put in. Our soul or spirit or both however, or something else in us, decided how we choose to handle ourselves in those conditions. Whether to succumb or to rise and meet the pain and the difficulties, whether to embrace, to dance on a neutral ground or to reject, those are some of the choises we make in everything like this. I dont believe we even can predict those choises, unless you do a prediction to a person who's a drifter. Just goes along the flow. It's different from being natural, because drifter pays less thought and focuses less on the true choises.

But I still ask myself, would our soul or spirit or whatever it is that we use to make those choises, so separate from this reality it wouldn't be influenced by the more mundane influences?

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Tarot can be a good tool for evaluating your situation and gaining new angles, insights. I use it more as a reminder because you can practically pick any card, somehow they just seem to be fitting. Astrology background has taught me to interpret anything widely, so I usually pick a subject before doing tarots for myself. Like work, love life, this day... it's an odd but effective way to reassure myself.

This is all fine and good with a little bit of humor, but I've avoided giving readings to these types in astrology when they ask something serious like losing a job or marriage. I dont like my readings to be used as replacements for taking care of your life and different aspects in it. I do divination, but not the definite kind, because the interpretations truly are diverse, there's not one and only one right interpretation of anything in astrology as far as I'm concerned, because I Ching, Tarot, Astrology, Hand palm reading, all those things read about the conditions our mind-body whole is put in. Our soul or spirit or both however, or something else in us, decided how we choose to handle ourselves in those conditions. Whether to succumb or to rise and meet the pain and the difficulties, whether to embrace, to dance on a neutral ground or to reject, those are some of the choises we make in everything like this. I dont believe we even can predict those choises, unless you do a prediction to a person who's a drifter. Just goes along the flow. It's different from being natural, because drifter pays less thought and focuses less on the true choises.

But I still ask myself, would our soul or spirit or whatever it is that we use to make those choises, so separate from this reality it wouldn't be influenced by the more mundane influences?

Thank you very much for sharing so deeply my friend. These systems can give a way of thinking that is helpful in dealing with life's cycles, and a way to diminish them or even from time to time becoming freer.

Peace

mark

Edited by markdohle

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I see them all as psychological tools, too, Mark. Tarot can be especially helpful because of the art work on the cards. You know, a picture is worth 1,000 words. I've never read them as divination or to find answers to questions, just as a way to provide one possible explanation of how we got the current moment. Personally, the cards help me understand the person's thinking process & perceptions, and what kinds of positive changes might be possible if those things changed.

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The healthy thing about such system is that they give a way to take responsibility for ones life and choices, and can give alternate ways of thinking through a difficulty, or giving insight into some sort of spiritual problem.

I have to admit that I fail to see anything "healthy" about relying on pieces of cardboard to give one any real insight on anything nor do I see anything that can be interpreted as "responsible".

From what I have observed, most want to actually avoid any responsibility for their actions and even ignore the consequences of actions taken on them by letting these pretty pieces of paper "indicate" that whatever happened was fate/karma/destiny/boogety-man, etc.

I have found that these "tools" simply reflect what you want to believe or what you wish to be true rather than actually "showing" you anything that is remotely connected to any truth, especially about yourself.

I mean, would you be really all that "open" to a piece of paper indicating that your problems are not because of fate or a irrelevant birth sign but because of your inability or refusal to look at your own behavior or acknowledge that you might be (for example) in a relationship that is toxic?

I understand what these "tools" are being claimed to do but if anything, all they do is reinforce what you want to think...you pull a card and attach your own meaning to it by picking out what you like and ignoring that which you do not.

Also..if one does "readings" for others then you have to deal with your own biased opinions before you can help another.

I met, many years ago, a woman who claimed to do tarot readings; while I was talking to her I discovered she had quite a bias against men and I thought to myself that her "service" would be useless and even damaging if she holds such a low view of men while doing readings for customers who some are sure to be male.

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I have to admit that I fail to see anything "healthy" about relying on pieces of cardboard to give one any real insight on anything nor do I see anything that can be interpreted as "responsible".

From what I have observed, most want to actually avoid any responsibility for their actions and even ignore the consequences of actions taken on them by letting these pretty pieces of paper "indicate" that whatever happened was fate/karma/destiny/boogety-man, etc.

I have found that these "tools" simply reflect what you want to believe or what you wish to be true rather than actually "showing" you anything that is remotely connected to any truth, especially about yourself.

I mean, would you be really all that "open" to a piece of paper indicating that your problems are not because of fate or a irrelevant birth sign but because of your inability or refusal to look at your own behavior or acknowledge that you might be (for example) in a relationship that is toxic?

I understand what these "tools" are being claimed to do but if anything, all they do is reinforce what you want to think...you pull a card and attach your own meaning to it by picking out what you like and ignoring that which you do not.

Also..if one does "readings" for others then you have to deal with your own biased opinions before you can help another.

I met, many years ago, a woman who claimed to do tarot readings; while I was talking to her I discovered she had quite a bias against men and I thought to myself that her "service" would be useless and even damaging if she holds such a low view of men while doing readings for customers who some are sure to be male.

Well, not sure you really read what I wrote:

The healthy thing about such system is that they give a way to take responsibility for ones life and choices, and can give alternate ways of thinking through a difficulty, or giving insight into some sort of spiritual problem. It is a tool, an extension of the unconscious, a mirror that can reflect back, and I believe that any spread will respond to a question that deals with the inner life. The future is always uncertain, changing with each small choice or large decision. To think the Tarot can direct ones life, is a mistake, for I believe some inferior aspect of ones unconscious, or fragmented personality can take over and lead one down a path of dependency that can be harmful.

How the above is a way to escape is not something I understand.

In any case thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Edited by markdohle

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I read what you wrote and I am not sure why you would use practices that are in conflict with your bible. (I am not a religious person so I am just asking really)

As for using cards or whatever..I thought I was being clear but I guess not. I have used the tarot or tried to many times as well as other "methods" and never got anything. I guess I fail to see how relying on pieces of paper/cardboard is going to help with anything.

Just like with dowsing, you are getting whatever answers or "insights" that you want and therefore a mindset is reaffirmed even though it may be wrong.

In the end it just seems like one is still left guessing as to what to do or how to actually extract a real meaning from it all.

It's not really my intent to argue or anything but I just don't see how it helps..I though discussions with people was more productive (best advice I got one time was from my cat who fell asleep in the sun...it was one of the best ideas I had come across too :) )

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I read what you wrote and I am not sure why you would use practices that are in conflict with your bible. (I am not a religious person so I am just asking really)

As for using cards or whatever..I thought I was being clear but I guess not. I have used the tarot or tried to many times as well as other "methods" and never got anything. I guess I fail to see how relying on pieces of paper/cardboard is going to help with anything.

Just like with dowsing, you are getting whatever answers or "insights" that you want and therefore a mindset is reaffirmed even though it may be wrong.

In the end it just seems like one is still left guessing as to what to do or how to actually extract a real meaning from it all.

It's not really my intent to argue or anything but I just don't see how it helps..I though discussions with people was more productive (best advice I got one time was from my cat who fell asleep in the sun...it was one of the best ideas I had come across too :) )

Thanks for making it clearer for me. Using Tarot is not against my faith, since I was not trying to 'divine' from some sort of god, or spirit some sort of information. For me it is accessing the unconscious. We do it all the time when watching movies, reading novels, or in how we interrupt art and react to others. Using cardboard images is just a conscious way of doing it. True it is hard work to actually go deeper, but many actually do who use this system, or the I Ching for insight.. In any case, I found them helpful, but then did not need them any more. Writing is much better I believe for me to get access to my inner world.

Thanks again for sharing.

peace

mark

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As for using cards or whatever..I thought I was being clear but I guess not. I have used the tarot or tried to many times as well as other "methods" and never got anything. I guess I fail to see how relying on pieces of paper/cardboard is going to help with anything.

Just like with dowsing, you are getting whatever answers or "insights" that you want and therefore a mindset is reaffirmed even though it may be wrong.

In the end it just seems like one is still left guessing as to what to do or how to actually extract a real meaning from it all.

It's not really my intent to argue or anything but I just don't see how it helps..I though discussions with people was more productive (best advice I got one time was from my cat who fell asleep in the sun...it was one of the best ideas I had come across too :) )

It can be about how open you are to yourself, how willing you are to face both the ups and so-called downs and challenges of life. I look at the challenges too through tarot, like this one time when I looked at the cards about the state of my career. It's much like having someone suggest you basically anything, but as you said, we people have biases, and the problem with talking with people about these things is that you tend to get answers colored by their bias. Cards dont have that kinda bias, just the way you read them might have but you also have your bias about how you take in what other people say. There's always a bias in everything you take in with your senses so I can't bring myself to see it as a reason to limit anything. If you've lived enough to be able to see the silver linings in a lot of painful and tiresome things, you know it's in your own best interest to see through that pain and take those alternatives too to account.

That said, I was and still am in front of a big decision, whether to keep my job for some years or try seriously try my hand as a professional, paid astrologer or in another career. It's not as simple as the words tend to be, mental images are simple but putting them to words isn't always. And cards are good because one card can give you a thousand ideas that are based on the same thing. Death card for example symbolises endings and through that new beginnings, but it can be an ending of my current career or just an ending of something that prevents me from taking the truly benefical way in whatever career I choose to go to. But it still symbolises a bit more profound change. It's only us who limit ourselves to see certain kinds of things in the cards. And that's a very good point. I've actually been considering of doing an astrological version of tarot and what you say gave me more to work with there... because there's often a part of us which we tend to reject, whether it's responsibility (in case of a believer who doesn't care about evidence for example) or visions and insights (in case of sceptic who chants "evidence please" all over) or basic form of asserting yourself or giving credit to others instead of making your stand. I think that could be a very useful card game to remind us of something we might leave less attended in our life.

Thanks for making it clearer for me. Using Tarot is not against my faith, since I was not trying to 'divine' from some sort of god, or spirit some sort of information. For me it is accessing the unconscious. We do it all the time when watching movies, reading novels, or in how we interrupt art and react to others. Using cardboard images is just a conscious way of doing it. True it is hard work to actually go deeper, but many actually do who use this system, or the I Ching for insight.. In any case, I found them helpful, but then did not need them any more. Writing is much better I believe for me to get access to my inner world.

Thanks again for sharing.

peace

mark

And you give something to think about for the rest of us too. I think hard work is anything you're not grown accustomed to, because you can grow accustomed to a lot of difficult things. But writing about diverse stuff with a touch in life is a good thing. I dont know if people realise it but it's really no hocus-pocus nor abstract things for the practitioners, not to me at least. Things about our life. If we kept looking at them the same old way, it's harder to expand our views on things. That means it's harder to see how others see life, harder to understand them. Harder to get where they're coming from with the way they are and the way they live. It's a very geminian way to just put it to words and ask "why you act like that" and a more maybe scorpioish way to instead study things in-depth and just listen their lives and joys and troubles. Both ways have their perks.

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I have to admit that I fail to see anything "healthy" about relying on pieces of cardboard to give one any real insight on anything nor do I see anything that can be interpreted as "responsible".

From what I have observed, most want to actually avoid any responsibility for their actions and even ignore the consequences of actions taken on them by letting these pretty pieces of paper "indicate" that whatever happened was fate/karma/destiny/boogety-man, etc.

I have found that these "tools" simply reflect what you want to believe or what you wish to be true rather than actually "showing" you anything that is remotely connected to any truth, especially about yourself.

I mean, would you be really all that "open" to a piece of paper indicating that your problems are not because of fate or a irrelevant birth sign but because of your inability or refusal to look at your own behavior or acknowledge that you might be (for example) in a relationship that is toxic?

I understand what these "tools" are being claimed to do but if anything, all they do is reinforce what you want to think...you pull a card and attach your own meaning to it by picking out what you like and ignoring that which you do not.

Also..if one does "readings" for others then you have to deal with your own biased opinions before you can help another.

I met, many years ago, a woman who claimed to do tarot readings; while I was talking to her I discovered she had quite a bias against men and I thought to myself that her "service" would be useless and even damaging if she holds such a low view of men while doing readings for customers who some are sure to be male.

I appreciate you take on it, while having reached conclusions different from yours. I love the cards, not for reasons of divination, but because they sometimes allow me to move outside of myself & my perspectives and see things in a different way than I normally do. And not everyone reads cards the same way. I can read the same card for a half dozen people and never repeat myself, because we each have our own private iconology based on our unique life's experiences. And every time this happens I learn as much about myself as I do the person I'm reading. I learn about my own prejudices and perspectives that sometimes blind me to seeing the world outside of my own personal lense of perceptions & understandings, and being able to move outside of that allows me to see/experience the complexities of human behavior. and with that comes compassion. Surely, Ryu, you can't honestly believe that your views & conclusions are the only valid ones?

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I guess I fail to see how relying on pieces of paper/cardboard is going to help with anything.

Just like with dowsing, you are getting whatever answers or "insights" that you want and therefore a mindset is reaffirmed even though it may be wrong.

Tarot isn't for everyone by all means, but no it's not just pieces on paper or cardboard -- that's all you see because you are not engaging with it. I don't know what it is you are missing or being blocked with, lack of faith (selfdoubts), trust or something blocking you, because you are always one to dismiss anything metaphysical as being a waste of time or pointless. You do this in thread after thread.

I can tell you one thing, what you describe in your post about such tools reflecting only what you want to hear, fluff etc - that happens to anyone who is stuck in their ego, doubts and fears. The inability or ability to accept the truth begins with the self and these tools if used properly help one to work on all self limiting factors by showing them. Everyone on this thread thus far has been giving examples of that.

I don't use tarot but i have honed my pendulum/dowsing skills to a pretty good level where i can use it to read just about anything. I trust in my self therefore i trust my pendulum because it is an extension of me. If i doubt myself, my pendulum will show me that. If all you are getting is nonsense and fantasy from such tools then it IS SHOWING you something, that something with you is way offbase. So rather than turn it in on the people who you think are all wasting their time or scamming others, why not start working on why you are so incredibly blocked to this field, because you obviously have interests in it or you wouldn't be trying these things out or reading about others doing it.

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You do this in thread after thread.

Yup. Horrible, isn't it? An adult being skeptical of claims? Refusing to buckle down and "believe" on command?

Placing ones trust in inanimate objects simply seems..dangerous to me and I am merely trying to understand how one can possibly extract anything meaningful from drawing random cards for example. Even when placed in a pattern they are all still randomly drawn.

So far what I am seeing is that when one draws a card, you have to invent your own meaning because the "book" that accompanies these cards is merely a "guide" and nothing more. From what I read, one shouldn't even really rely on the book.

Sure I really tried the whole "trust the universe" and suspended my thinking..you know, be like a child thing. Still nothing so whatever. If it works for any of you then I am truly happy that you are happy with it.

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I appreciate you take on it, while having reached conclusions different from yours. I love the cards, not for reasons of divination, but because they sometimes allow me to move outside of myself & my perspectives and see things in a different way than I normally do. And not everyone reads cards the same way. I can read the same card for a half dozen people and never repeat myself, because we each have our own private iconology based on our unique life's experiences. And every time this happens I learn as much about myself as I do the person I'm reading. I learn about my own prejudices and perspectives that sometimes blind me to seeing the world outside of my own personal lense of perceptions & understandings, and being able to move outside of that allows me to see/experience the complexities of human behavior. and with that comes compassion. Surely, Ryu, you can't honestly believe that your views & conclusions are the only valid ones?

As usual you say it better than me my friend :nw::clap::nw:

peace

mark

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. Surely, Ryu, you can't honestly believe that your views & conclusions are the only valid ones?

Never said that, did I? Actually I refrain from "believing" altogether.

Anyway, I just do not feel obligated to believe something because others do nor do I feel others should either.

I am under the impression that forums are for discussions even if views do not dovetail with others.

Edited by Ryu

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Never said that, did I? Actually I refrain from "believing" altogether.

Anyway, I just do not feel obligated to believe something because others do nor do I feel others should either.

I am under the impression that forums are for discussions even if views do not dovetail with others.

No, you never said that. Thanks for the clarification, because there are people who don't seem to understand that their truth is not universal, and discussions with them are usually pretty fruitless.

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Yup. Horrible, isn't it? An adult being skeptical of claims? Refusing to buckle down and "believe" on command?

And this is what you think needs to be done, believing on command? Are you serious? really, or just being sarcastic. I think you know exactly what i meant and this response is just flippant. Infact i wouldn't be replying if it weren't for the fact that you at least try things for yourself. Some part of you goes to the effort to try these things but something is blocking you and that is why you can't see these things on the level they operate, or as nothing more than pieces or cardboard or potentially dangerous tools. But you didn't pick up the relevance of the message, rather instead, getting defensive over the responses that no one can make you believe anything. Why? Because here is NOT one person even saying that or trying to do that here. That is something projecting from you. I can assure you it's not coming from anyone here.

Placing ones trust in inanimate objects simply seems..dangerous to me and I am merely trying to understand how one can possibly extract anything meaningful from drawing random cards for example. Even when placed in a pattern they are all still randomly drawn.

It's not placing trust in inanimate objects - you don't get it. - It's about trusting-in-yourself (innerself). When you trust IN your self, and go in the flow of your inner self (not ego, not fears) everything changes, these tools become an extension of you. There archetypal meanings become an extension for your subconscious vocab. The relationship is about you and with yourself not the tools, the trust is with your self, you have to learn to trust yourself and let the doubts and fears go, it's nothing about the objects/tools at all. Until you can do that, you are going to be blocked and continue seeing all this as pointless.

They aren't designed to be interpreted from the ego 3d everyday mind, it's a subconscious thing. You're saying these things are a waste of time and don't work and yes you are entitled to say that, but when it is screamingly obvious in the examples you relate to, that your experience is missing a link or block to comprehending the either the topic or the work of the innerself, and riddled with doubts, then other people are entitled to give their opinion if they think it may help and it doesn't mean they are trying to convert you. And if it's not for you, its not for you, but no one is making you oblige anything so cut that obnoxious vibe out. Most people involved in these type of discussions who are helping others to bridge the gaps are harmless and underground of all the heavy debating and rough seas of nit picking that goes on.

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I think, on the whole, trusting in inanimate objects is kind of naive. I would say altogether stupid, but then I am reminded of some of the inanimate objects I've been in the presence of that radiated so much energy that I couldn't bring myself to even touch them. But generally life is about what we bring to the party. Most objects are neither inherently good nor bad, just neutral; it's our perceptions that change them from a neutral thing into a positive or negative thing. So in that way, our reactions to these things, like tarot cards, a crucifix, a pentacle, a bronze statue of Shiva or Bast, a 1960 muscle car, spiders, tell us perhaps more about ourselves than about the object itself.

I collect dragonflies, earrings, necklaces, pins, vases painted with dragonflies, etc. because they are my personal symbol for the ancestors, that I carry their DNA, their blood, possibly their memories, that I only here because of their courage & determination to cross a big ocean in a tiny ship to emigrate to a land full of wilderness, and if they stepped up to the plate like that surely I can find in within myself to do the same. I also collect suns in various forms, because they remind me of my warrior self, which sometimes needs to come into play, the destruction and new life that occurs because of a wildfire and the cycles of life in all of its forms. So the cards work the same way for me. I see a man on a tarot card dressed in gold standing on a golden chariot with a world globe in his hand, and I'm thinking how it symbolizes movement, self-confidence, and the will to direct one's life. Of I see a woman beneath a starry sky with a full moon stooping to fill up a jug with water from the river at her feet, and I think of cycles, of the moon, of a woman's life and her intuition, and how our lives might change if we become of where we are at in a particular cycles in our lives. So while the objects, the cards, are inanimate, I'm certainly not. I can put things together, see how one thought might lead to another, how one holds one's self might lead to fairly predictable results. And I can offer compassion & non-judgment, which is maybe more important than the cards to someone who has never given themselves a break, and has never been able to love or accept themselves. To talk to them about how it might be possible to do this is a joy.

So that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!

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Seems liek these cards are just crutches to be sued when you don't trust your own thinking.

Looking at them and going by "sucosncious" stuff comes across as hedging your bets, so that if you're wrong you cna blam eit on the cards, or your inner self, or whatever metaphysical thing the person wants to use in that moment.

Psychology and smoke and mirrors used to make a buck would be my way of seeing it

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Seems liek these cards are just crutches to be sued when you don't trust your own thinking.

Looking at them and going by "sucosncious" stuff comes across as hedging your bets, so that if you're wrong you cna blam eit on the cards, or your inner self, or whatever metaphysical thing the person wants to use in that moment.

Psychology and smoke and mirrors used to make a buck would be my way of seeing it

You only get to make a buck if you claim it for divination purposes for other folk. What I am seeing here in this thread is the more pure purpose of the tarot, which is comprehension of the individual users psychology and decision making capacity in any event. You can't "make a buck" if you are using it for yourself - or at least you can only understand what is prompting your "financial choices" with the tarot, which may help you "make a buck" but not by using it to divine for others.

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I've never made a buck from a reading. What some see as a crutch I see as just another tool in the tool box, and sometimes a useful tool, though almost never my first choice. I prefer just sitting down and talking to people, but some people are more comfortable with the cards as an intermediary, so to speak. As I said earlier, the cards are inanimate, it's what we bring to them that makes 'em good, bad, a crutch, a tool, inspirational, informative, evil, etc. And the archetypes, the major arcana, are universal, to which most everyone can relate. Here's one definition from Wikipedia:

  • In Jungian psychology, archetypes refer to a collectively inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, image, etc., universally present in individual psyches.

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Seems liek these cards are just crutches to be sued when you don't trust your own thinking.

Looking at them and going by "sucosncious" stuff comes across as hedging your bets, so that if you're wrong you cna blam eit on the cards, or your inner self, or whatever metaphysical thing the person wants to use in that moment.

Gave my reply to this in 1st reply, when talking about the kind of people Marc and Me avoid giving readings to, the kind who think something is compelled to happen:

This is all fine and good with a little bit of humor, but I've avoided giving readings to these types in astrology when they ask something serious like losing a job or marriage. I dont like my readings to be used as replacements for taking care of your life and different aspects in it.

Needless to say, I dont use astrology and tarot that way myself either, dont see them useful for that. Because lets be honest here: you try foretelling something for yourself and then try make the events in your life go exactly the opposite way. What happens? A good chance something exactly opposite to how you predicted things to happen, will happen. Mark described pretty well how I use these tools too.

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Seems liek these cards are just crutches to be sued when you don't trust your own thinking.

Looking at them and going by "sucosncious" stuff comes across as hedging your bets, so that if you're wrong you cna blam eit on the cards, or your inner self, or whatever metaphysical thing the person wants to use in that moment.

Psychology and smoke and mirrors used to make a buck would be my way of seeing it

It is your own thinking that seeks to use the cards to dig deeper......it is a wonder that you can't see nor understand this....oy....well we are each different.

peace

mark

Edited by markdohle

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And this is what you think needs to be done, believing on command?

This is how I see most religions. They rely on force and coercion to keep adherents.

It's not placing trust in inanimate objects - you don't get it. - It's about trusting-in-yourself (innerself).

Oh I get it alright. If one trust ones "intuition" so much then why the need for a intermediary object? If one is so in tune with oneself then stones and cards are not needed are they?

So basically because I tried different things and did the whole "trust yourself" bit and still none of them worked then it is still MY fault that these things weren't giving me answers. Ok. Got it. No problem.

Look..I realize that you believe in these things and obviously you feel you are getting what you want from it. Ok. Great. I really am happy that it works for you. Divination doesn't work for everyone and I prefer to have a straight line to my "sub conscious" rather than relying on pieces of decorated card board or carved pieces of stone.

To each his own. I accept your ways and I accept mine.

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This is how I see most religions. They rely on force and coercion to keep adherents.

Oh I get it alright. If one trust ones "intuition" so much then why the need for a intermediary object? If one is so in tune with oneself then stones and cards are not needed are they?

So basically because I tried different things and did the whole "trust yourself" bit and still none of them worked then it is still MY fault that these things weren't giving me answers. Ok. Got it. No problem.

Look..I realize that you believe in these things and obviously you feel you are getting what you want from it. Ok. Great. I really am happy that it works for you. Divination doesn't work for everyone and I prefer to have a straight line to my "sub conscious" rather than relying on pieces of decorated card board or carved pieces of stone.

To each his own. I accept your ways and I accept mine.

I don't need to use cards to do readings, but some people are uncomfortable with this kind of reading, so I pull out the cards for them. I think the cards serve as a sort of barrier for some people who are't quite ready to have an intimate conversation about their lives and what's troubling them. Sometimes we look at the cards together, and sometimes we look at each other and have a meaningful conversation, cards forgotten. And I never give anyone answers, instead I encourage them to access & trust their own inner wisdom & intuition, telling them that they are the experts on themselves & their lives. Nor do I use cards for divination, they are just triggers for talking about people's experiences, beliefs, joys, grief, psychological wounds, etc. I don't "believe" in tarot, either. They are just cards, inanimate, it's what we bring to it.

To clarify, no coercion or force is present, no overt or implied threats of doom, no suggestion that what I say should be considered more important than the person's own intuition, wisdom, and inner-knowing, no promises that life will work out better after a reading or even improve. No fault is found, no divination is done, no money changes hands, few answers given to specific questions and none given when the question is one that the querent should be answering themselves. What is given: a listening ear, a new/different perspective or way of looking at the issue to be considered, compassion, empathy, encouragement to love & honor one's self. Some times just sitting quietly with someone who's not in judgment is the biggest gift of all.

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They are just cards, inanimate, it's what we bring to it.

So its no different than using a puppet to talk to a child.

The difference being that children grow up, and learn to process emotions and thoughts in a constructive way. These pictures that people look at serve no purpose but to allow a delusion to continue.

As for my earlier money statement, y'all personally may not be using it for money,but I assume you bought these cards somewhere, or bought a book, and if all that's not true, well groovy you're playing with cards for free. The idea at its core though is a scam, like any other metaphysical thing.

You claim to use these for introspective thinking, why? Why these things?

Edited by SkepticalB

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