Biblical Arguments Against Christian Zionism

[buckskin scout]

Christian Zionism supports the theological argument that the new covenant of Christ has not abrogated God's original covenant with Moses, that the church has not replaced Israel and that Israel's covenant privilages have never been revoked.

Christian Zionism supports the theological argument that the land promise is intrinsically linked to covenant and since this covenant cannot be annulled even through disobedience - even rejection of the messiah - then the land of Israel belongs exclusively to Judaism.

Nevertheless, the chief message of the prophets was Israel's fidelity to the covenant, how this was lived out in a life of righteousness, and the historic judgments that will fall on the land if there is disobedience.

Christian Zionism supports the theological argument that to fail to bless Israel, to fail to support Israel's political survival today, will incur divine judgment - that Christians are called on to blindly endorse all of Israel's political policies. Even criticism of Israel is unacceptable to many Christian Zionism.

Yet, according to the New Testament, all Christians are the children of Abraham, Jesus is the new Moses, the 12 apostles evoke memories of the 12 tribes, etc. To neglect this vital New Testament theme is to do a genuine disservice to the New Testament itself.

The central motif of the Book of Judges, is it simply foreshadowing for the kingdom era. The Babylonian exile is the best example of the consequences of infidelity to the covenant. In addition, the New Testament is making a stunning claim about genuine continuity between the covenants in that Christians are the children of Abraham and heir to his promises.

Christian Zionism is committed to what has been termed a "territorial religion." It assumes that God's interests are focused on a land, a locale, a place. From a New Testament perspective, the land is holy by reference to what transpired there in history. But it no longer has an intrinsic part to play in God's progress for the world. In other words, the land and that temple are now secondary. The fusion of national politics and religious mandate is gone. God wishes to reveal himself to the entire world.

What do the Jews think? According to Rabbi Yehiel Poupko, 85% of Jews worldwide see no religious significance to Israel. And they view the Christian Zionist program with some amusement.

But here is the key: Christian Zionists must beware of projecting unto Israel a religious self-justification that may not even be there. For most Jews, the State of Israel may have less to do with God than it has to do with ethnic or cultural survival.

The theological worldview embraced by Christian Zionism is that the Christian faith and politics MUST be wed in Israel.

Yet, in the New Testament, the term "chosen" however, is never used of the Jewish people. It is therefore no longer appropriate to designate the Jews as God's "chosen people". The term has been redefined to describe all those who trust in Jesus Christ.

And it is difficult to conceive how such an entirely futuristic interpretation of the prophecies would have brought any comfort to the Jewish exiles in Babylon to whom Ezekiel was sent to minister, yet this and similar passages provide the motivation for the restorationist movement today [Christian Zionism].

The conviction that the Jewish Temple must be rebuilt is, ironically, the Achilles' heel of Christian Zionism for it is inevitably also associated with the reintroduction of the Mosaic sacrificial system.

The immediate context for Ezekiel's vision of a rebuilt Temple is the promised return of the Jews from the Babylonian exile, not some long distant eschatological event. This would have been utterly meaningless to the exiles longing to return to Israel. How could Ezekiel be referringf to some future millennial age, when Jesus Christ fulfilled the role of the sacrificial system, ONCE AND FOR ALL, by the shedding his own blood? To suggest that animal sacrifices must be reintroduced undermines the New Testament insistance that the work of Christ is sufficient, final and complete.

The followers of Jesus Christ are called to be peace makers (Matthew 5:9), to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44) and to no longer regard others from a worldly point of view but instead reach out to the widow and orphan, the poor, the sick and stranger, through a ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:16-20). Tragically, many Christian Zionists, it seems, are more concerned with heralding Armageddon than building peace.

Best-selling Christian Zionist writers such as Hal Lindsay and Jack Van Impe detach predictions concerning the future from the convenantal context within which the prophecies were originally given. Lindsay's view is at variance with the Hebrew prophets themselves who consistently stress that their intention was to call God's people back to the terms of their covenant relationship, not reveal arbitrary and otherwise hidden facts about predestined future events. Authentic biblical prophecy is always conditional rather than fatalistic. The promises and warnings are conditional upon how people respond to God's instructions.

Such literalist assumptions preclude any possibility of an alternative reading of the Bible, history or a just and lasting outcome to the search for peace in the Middle East.

Satirically, Kenneth Cragg summarises the implications of Christian Zionism's ethnic exclusivity:

It is so; God chose the Jews; the land is theirs by divine gift. These dicta cannot be questioned or resisted. They are final. Such verdicts come infallibly from Christian biblicists for whom Israel can do no wrong, thus fortified. But can such positivism, this unquestioning finality, be compatible with the integrity of the Prophets themselves? It certainly cannont square with the open peoplehood under God which is the crux of New Testament faith. Nor can it well be reconciled with the ethical demands central to law and election alike.

Christian Zionism only thrives on a futurist and literal hermeneutic when Old Testament promises made to the ancient Jewish people are transposed on to the contemporary State of Israel. To do so it is necessary to ignore, marginalise or by-pass the New Testament which reinterprets, annuls and fulfills those promises in and through Jesus Christ and his followers.

Ultimately, what difference did the coming of Jesus Christ make to the traditional Jewish hopes and expectations about the land? We may not interpret the Old Covenant as if the coming of Jesus made little or no difference to the nationalistic and territorial aspirations of the 1st-century Judaism.

Christian Zionism is an exclusive theology that focuses on the Jews in the land rather than the inclusive theology that centres on Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world. Christian Zionism provides a theological endorsement for apartheid and human rights abuses, rather than a theology of justice, peace and reconciliation which lies at the heart of the New Covenant.

GoSC would like to Gary M Burge and Stephen Sizer, the true authors of this content I posted rather piecemail.

Edited October 20, 2013 by GoSC

[+and-then]

The article fairly states what a Christian Zionist believes and I have no problem admitting it. With the ONE exception that a CZ MUST agree with every political move of the secular government of Israel. Some do, I'm sure, but as with any group there are differences and shades of conscience. Replacement theology is negated in this statement: Genesis 17: 6-8

God makes it crystal clear that his contract with Abram's descendants is EVERLASTING. That they will have the land and his blessings. The blessings ARE contingent on obedience and they were several times removed and sent into punishment but it also is clear that they will be regathered and that through a chastisement at the end of days they will FINALLY "get it" and understand what they have been missing and why. The fact that your authors disagree with this is not unusual - MANY replacement theological types are out there. They (and you) are free to believe anything you like. The proof will come with time. If Israel is defeated and completely removed from their land in my lifetime I will admit that I am wrong. Until then I see no proof here - just another interpretation of scripture.

[buckskin scout]

The article fairly states what a Christian Zionist believes and I have no problem admitting it. With the ONE exception that a CZ MUST agree with every political move of the secular government of Israel. Some do, I'm sure, but as with any group there are differences and shades of conscience. Replacement theology is negated in this statement: Genesis 17: 6-8

God makes it crystal clear that his contract with Abram's descendants is EVERLASTING. That they will have the land and his blessings. The blessings ARE contingent on obedience and they were several times removed and sent into punishment but it also is clear that they will be regathered and that through a chastisement at the end of days they will FINALLY "get it" and understand what they have been missing and why. The fact that your authors disagree with this is not unusual - MANY replacement theological types are out there. They (and you) are free to believe anything you like. The proof will come with time. If Israel is defeated and completely removed from their land in my lifetime I will admit that I am wrong. Until then I see no proof here - just another interpretation of scripture.

That is the nation promise, the land promise, and the seed promise made to Abraham by God. And these were already ALL fulfilled.

The Nation Promise was already fulfilled see Genesis 46:3; Exodus 1:7; and Deuteronomy 26:5

The Land Promise was already fulfilled see Joshua 21:43-45, 23:14-15; 1 Kings 4:21, 8:56; and 2 Chronicles 9:26

And the Seed Promise was already fulfilled see Acts 3:25-26

And what about Galatians 3:26-29. Replacement theology has never been negated. Are you going to argue against Saint Paul?

Paul says Christians are the children of Abraham and heirs to the promises. What promises, you say? Why the promises written down in Genesis 17:6-8, of course, silly!

Did you even read the whole article I posted, and then? Why would God speak to Ezekiel to deliver messages to the Jews in exile about event that are to occur according to Christian Zionist... 2,545 years from the exile?

So basically God says through his prophets, "Hey guys, I am going to end your exile soon... but I am going to exile you guys again... and I will bring you back into the land 2,545 years from today. Sounds great huh, guys? Wonderful news indeed. But get this, the third you are exiled from the land it will be nearly two whole millenniums, about 1,800 years to be precise guys. How does that grab you. Ain't I an awesome and wonderful God? Keep up the faith, guys. Here's looking at the year 1948."

And this is no mockery I intended just point out the absurdities that Ezekiel and the other prophets were prophecying about events over 2,500 years into the future in order to get the Israelites to repent and return to the God, and observe the convenant with fidelity.

Here's the thing, the Bible says God only promised that land to the Jews three times, first to Abraham, then to Moses, and finally to the post-Babylonian exile Jews. There is no mention in the scriptures of a fourth time. The Old Testament Prophets most if not all were written DURING the exile. It was a contemporary message to the contemporary Jews that their messages spoke to.

Edited October 21, 2013 by GoSC

[buckskin scout]

The blessings and promises of Abraham can be forfeited through unbelief and disobedience. The prophet Jeremiah gives the following warning:

Then you will call upon and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back from captivity. I will gather yoiu from all the nations and places where I have banished you," declares the LORD, "and will bring you back to the place from which I carried you into exile." (Jeremiah 29:12-14)

The physical restoration of Israel did take place at the time of Ezra and Nehemiah. The Jews returned to Jerusalem and the Temple was rebuilt.

The return of the Jews had already been fulfilled at the time of their return from the Babylonian exile which King Cyrus made possible. They did return and the temple was rebuilt and was dedicated in the year 516 BC. Restoration to the land in the Old Testament, however, is conditional. Since the people of Israel disobeyed God, they forfeited any right of return or the blessings of promises.

As we enjoy the promise of the Father, we need to be very careful when we come to the subject of prophecies and end times. Jesus is telling us today also that "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His authority." (Acts 1:7)

Furthermore, now onto the topic of the Temple:

"Jesus answered them, 'Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.'

The Jews replied, 'It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?' But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken." (John 2:19-22)

Which interpretation is correct? Certainly the Jewish leaders were wrong since Jesus was talking about His body.

If the temple is rebuilt, it will not be part of God's plan. God will not dwell in it and no sacrifice will be accepted by God for the remission of sin. The Spirit of the Lord stopped dwelling in the temple when Jesus died on the cross and veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom. (Matthew 27:51)

Paul, in Acts 17:24, puts it beautifully: "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of Heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands."

Hebrews 10:12-14 tells us very clearly that Jesus was the last sacrifice for sin:

"But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

[Jor-el]

Nowhere in the bibe does it say that the promises to Israel were revoked or "abrogated" as you put it. Actually the opposite is true.

As Paul himself put it:

Romans 11

1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. ² God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? ³ “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” ⁴ But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

¹¹ So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. ¹² Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

¹³ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry ¹⁴ in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. ¹⁵ For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? ¹⁶ If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

¹⁷ But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, ¹⁸ do not be arrogant toward the branches.

While you may reject Zionism, it is also a mistake to believe it to something that is not biblical.

[buckskin scout]

Jor-El,

Please read Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28-29.

Their message is this, God leveled the field between Jew and Gentile. One does not hold any special privilages ESPECIALLY land promises over the other. They are all equal before God, thus Palestinian and Jew are equals. God is no repecter of persons, remember (including Jews).

[Mr Walker]

Israels right to existence as a nation and to the territories it was given under international law is an entirely secular political matter. It has nothing to do with any religious belief. I am a strong supporter of israel for historical, political, and moral reasons, but theology has no say in this matter. i would argue that to use it clouds, and even weakens, Israel's real arguments for its right to existence.

[Yamato]

Israels right to existence as a nation and to the territories it was given under international law is an entirely secular political matter. It has nothing to do with any religious belief.

Palestine's right to existence as a nation and to the territories it was given under international law is an entirely secular political matter.

So it has nothing to do with religious beliefs...to you. To many people who support it, it is the central reason for doing so.

[Yamato]

Zionism creates "anti-Semitism" and I put that insult in quotes because we have to butcher the definition of the word "Semite" in order to make sense of it.

The reasons given by orthodox Jews in the US sound reasonable enough to me. Because Americans generally don't have to personally suffer with Israel's inhuman policies overseas, they can sweep the moral outrage of that place under the rug easily enough, and just take the safe road that they've been goaded and guilt-tripped their whole lives into taking.

[Jor-el]

Jor-El,

Please read Romans 10:12 and Galatians 3:28-29.

Their message is this, God leveled the field between Jew and Gentile. One does not hold any special privilages ESPECIALLY land promises over the other. They are all equal before God, thus Palestinian and Jew are equals. God is no repecter of persons, remember (including Jews).

I am well aware that one is no more important than the other in the eyes of God, but i would like you to consider that what you are transmitting is that the Jews have been cut off from the promises, something that is not biblical and is in fact a terrible heresy that has led to anti-semitism in the gentile christian world.

Because of this terrible lie perpetuated by some less than responsible christians, even if they are called saints by many in this day and age, millions of Jews have died and been persecuted throughout the ages...

[Jor-el]

Zionism creates "anti-Semitism" and I put that insult in quotes because we have to butcher the definition of the word "Semite" in order to make sense of it.

The reasons given by orthodox Jews in the US sound reasonable enough to me. Because Americans generally don't have to personally suffer with Israel's inhuman policies overseas, they can sweep the moral outrage of that place under the rug easily enough, and just take the safe road that they've been goaded and guilt-tripped their whole lives into taking.

Zionism does NOT create anti-semitism, anti-Zionism does this.

Zionism acknowledges the God given right of Israel to exist and its existence for all time is a promise made by God.

[buckskin scout]

Zionism does NOT create anti-semitism, anti-Zionism does this.

Zionism acknowledges the God given right of Israel to exist and its existence for all time is a promise made by God.

And my argument is that Israel is not even God's plan anymore. Christian Zionist claim "Israel is God's timepiece". And I ask how so?

"It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His authority." (Acts 1:7)

Right there Christian Zionism is contradicting the Word of God.

Have you heard what the new Israel Of God is? (Galatians 6:16)

I'll tell you, It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Romans 9:6

Do you know what that verse above is stating, it is stating Jews who aren't believers in Christ aren't descendents of Israel. And vice versa, Gentiles that are believers in Christ are descended from Israel.

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

If one belong to Christ, both Gentile and Jew, then they are both Abraham's seed and both are heirs according to the promises of Abraham.

For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, Philippians 3:3

Who is truly circumcised? Well, the Jews and Gentiles that worship by the Spirit of God and rely on what Christ did for them and put no confidence in human effort (attempting to fulfill the Old Testament law). Who is uncircumcised? The Jews and Gentiles that fail to worship by the Spirit of God and don't rely on what Christ did for them and put confidence in human efforts (attempt to fulfill the Old Testament law).

But here is one of my favorite passages against Christian Zionism, Ephesians 2:11-22

¹¹ Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— ¹² remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ¹³ But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ¹⁴ For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

What groups is Paul speaking that Christ made into one? ... why, Jews and Gentiles. And what barrier of the dividing wall did Christ break down?... Why, the Old Testament covenent and God's "chosen". Both Christ-believing Jews and Gentile are now God's chosen.

¹⁵ by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, ¹⁶ and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

What two did Christ make into one new man? Who did Christ reconcile both in one body to God? The answer to both questions here is Christ-believing Jews and Gentiles.

¹⁷ And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; ¹⁸ for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. ¹⁹ So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, ²⁰ having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, ²¹ in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, ²² in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit

Who represents the whole building? Who is being fitted together? Who is growing into a holy temple in the Lord? Who is being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit?

Christ-believing Jews and Gentiles.

Christian Zionists are literally throwbacks and defying the Word of God. In essence defying God.

[Labyrinthus]

... that Christians are called on to blindly endorse all of Israel's political policies. Even criticism of Israel is unacceptable to many Christian Zionism.

I am no expert on this subject but I am pretty sure that this claim is just plain false.

[Yamato]

Zionism does NOT create anti-semitism, anti-Zionism does this.

Zionism acknowledges the God given right of Israel to exist and its existence for all time is a promise made by God.

Zionism is what it is, and it is in the encyclopedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

That whole biblical thing wasn't necessary when you start doing more research into Zionism and where the "Jewish Homeland" was supposed to be. They considered many different places on many continents. The Zionist movement was not limited to this "God-given" or "made by God" stuff you're bringing up. These Zionists aren't pious, they aren't even religious. If the Biblical bit reinforces their political interests then so be it. Why would they fight that? Christian Zionists like the kind we see on this board today are as good a political ally as an Israeli will ever have.

[Yamato]

I am well aware that one is no more important than the other in the eyes of God, but i would like you to consider that what you are transmitting is that the Jews have been cut off from the promises, something that is not biblical and is in fact a terrible heresy that has led to anti-semitism in the gentile christian world.

Because of this terrible lie perpetuated by some less than responsible christians, even if they are called saints by many in this day and age, millions of Jews have died and been persecuted throughout the ages...

Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Jewish Messiah. What's heresy to you is what you're not familiar with, maybe it's what you're not comfortable with, but unfortunately like all religions, different interpretations are not only possible, they're certain.

Millions of native Americans, of Asians, of Christians, of people of all types in all places have been persecuted through the ages. Time to live in the present and stop blaming innocent people alive today for all the historical crap and bull that happened centuries ago.

[Mr Walker]

Palestine's right to existence as a nation and to the territories it was given under international law is an entirely secular political matter.

So it has nothing to do with religious beliefs...to you. To many people who support it, it is the central reason for doing so.

I agree that the issue is entirely secular on both sides and must be settled by law and using peaceful methods. The jews do not have a superior position because they are jews and the palestians have no superior rights because they are muslim.

I know religious people of many persuasions disagree, but that is belief based on other underlying beliefs; not fact. Israel is neither a player in some great religious scheme, nor a victim of one. Israel is a nation state, and the same rationales and legal arguments apply to it, as to any nation state. No more no less. Religious arguments cannot be used to either argue for it, or against it. If the Palestinians can be granted their own territory, then that too will be just another nation state, not some element in prophecy.

[Mr Walker]

Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Jewish Messiah. What's heresy to you is what you're not familiar with, maybe it's what you're not comfortable with, but unfortunately like all religions, different interpretations are not only possible, they're certain.

Millions of native Americans, of Asians, of Christians, of people of all types in all places have been persecuted through the ages. Time to live in the present and stop blaming innocent people alive today for all the historical crap and bull that happened centuries ago.

Obviously the majority of jews do not agree with this principle or belief. And it is just silly in the 20/21 st. centuries, to base geopolitical realities on 2000 year old beliefs of any sort. Otherwise we might as well all sit back and wait for Armageddon or the second coming of Christ.

[Jor-el]

And my argument is that Israel is not even God's plan anymore. Christian Zionist claim "Israel is God's timepiece". And I ask how so?

"It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His authority." (Acts 1:7)

Right there Christian Zionism is contradicting the Word of God.

Have you heard what the new Israel Of God is? (Galatians 6:16)

I'll tell you, It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Romans 9:6

Do you know what that verse above is stating, it is stating Jews who aren't believers in Christ aren't descendents of Israel. And vice versa, Gentiles that are believers in Christ are descended from Israel.

If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3:29

If one belong to Christ, both Gentile and Jew, then they are both Abraham's seed and both are heirs according to the promises of Abraham.

For we who worship by the Spirit of God are the ones who are truly circumcised. We rely on what Christ Jesus has done for us. We put no confidence in human effort, Philippians 3:3

Who is truly circumcised? Well, the Jews and Gentiles that worship by the Spirit of God and rely on what Christ did for them and put no confidence in human effort (attempting to fulfill the Old Testament law). Who is uncircumcised? The Jews and Gentiles that fail to worship by the Spirit of God and don't rely on what Christ did for them and put confidence in human efforts (attempt to fulfill the Old Testament law).

But here is one of my favorite passages against Christian Zionism, Ephesians 2:11-22

¹¹ Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— ¹² remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ¹³ But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ¹⁴ For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

What groups is Paul speaking that Christ made into one? ... why, Jews and Gentiles. And what barrier of the dividing wall did Christ break down?... Why, the Old Testament covenent and God's "chosen". Both Christ-believing Jews and Gentile are now God's chosen.

¹⁵ by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, ¹⁶ and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

What two did Christ make into one new man? Who did Christ reconcile both in one body to God? The answer to both questions here is Christ-believing Jews and Gentiles.

¹⁷ And He came and preached peace to you who were far away, and peace to those who were near; ¹⁸ for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. ¹⁹ So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, ²⁰ having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, ²¹ in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, ²² in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit

Who represents the whole building? Who is being fitted together? Who is growing into a holy temple in the Lord? Who is being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit?

Christ-believing Jews and Gentiles.

Christian Zionists are literally throwbacks and defying the Word of God. In essence defying God.

Israel will always be in Gods plan...

You confuse a number of things in this post of yours, but here two simple questions that will divide the waters and bring understanding...

Which peoples constitute the body of christ?

And which peoples will inhabit the land of Israel during the Millenium after christ returns?

[buckskin scout]

Israel will always be in Gods plan...

You confuse a number of things in this post of yours, but here two simple questions that will divide the waters and bring understanding...

Which peoples constitute the body of christ?

And which peoples will inhabit the land of Israel during the Millenium after christ returns?

What message would Ezekiel speak to Christian Zionist today? Christian Zionists toss away their Christian ethics and fail to live beyond 6th century BCE of the exiled Jews. This is no longer the 6th century BCE, this the 21st century CE.

According to the Christian Zionists, I bet pre-Babylonian apostate Israel would be fully supported by Christian Zionists.

You are gravely mistaken if you think Christian ethics and the common rights of all men mean nothing to God and that cruel oppressive disputations over land is more important than two former.

It is unethical what happened to the Palestinian peoples. Christian Zionists and Christian Zionism, simply put, are terms used to identify any Christian who, due to a particular understanding and interpretation of the Bible, supports the ingathering of all Jews to Israel and their claim to the whole land of Palestine and, therefore, denies Palestinian rights.

Let's look at how the Psalmist describes God. Psalm 101 says, "I will sing of your love and justice." Singing refers to really singing! "To you, O Lord, I will sing praise." When we sing about the Lord, we are singing to the Lord of justice, not just any God. Psalm 103 declares, "The Lord works righteousness and justice for the oppressed." That's what the Lord does. So when we say we are singing of God's love and justice, we are singing to the Lord, we are singing praise, we are singing of the Lord's righteousness and the justice he has for all people, oppressed people. Psalm 140 too says, "I know that the Lord secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy. Surely the righteous will praise your name and the upright will live before you." You know Micah 6:8: "He has shown you, O man, what is good, and what the does the Lord require of you?" He doesn't say, "What the Lord suggests to you?" "What does the Lord REQUIRE? To act justly and to have mercy and to walk humbly with your God."

Christian Zionists incorrectly asserts that God is still in covenant with the physical Jewish people, and therefore, at the end of the days, as the Bible says, the Jews must return to their land, create their kingdom and build their temple on the Temple Mount. The Jews become what the dispensationalists often refer to as God's timepiece, and this creates, an incredible fascination with what the Jews are doing.

Christian Zionism asserts that it is pro-Judaism and pro-Israel, but at the end of the script, Jews must die or convert. Popular promoters, people who insist that the Christians support Israel more than the Jews do, state in the same breath that the Second Coming will be worse for the Jews than the Holocaust. This is a strange attitude to take for someone who claims to be an ally of the Jews, and an even stranger attitude fore someone embraced by some Jews as being their ally. The Jews become actors and characters in the Christian myth, not people with their own beliefs, not people who are making their own choices. Christian Zionism, therefore, becomes a rejection of Jews as normal people in history. It supports hard-line policies of the Israeli government, not for the benefit of Israel or the Jews, but to realize the scenario of Armageddon in which blood will flow as high as a horse's bridle in the Holy Land, and the Jews will be destroyed. Arabs and Palestinians, by the way, tend to become little more than stage props in this round. Actions and policies themselves are measured neither by their pragmatic outcomes nor by their ethical outcomes, but by their mythic outcomes.

In Israel as a Jewish state, only those defined as Jews in an ethnoreligious sense can enjoy full citizen benefits. Palestinians are denied equal citizenship within Israel. This also makes it unacceptable to many Israelis to consider giving the Palestinians in the occupied territories citizenship in Israel since this would mean Jews would become a bare majority and perhaps eventually a minority. This is seen as a "demographic problem." But continued numbers of Palestinians are a demographic problem only if one continues to define Israel as a Jewish state, rather than accepting the reality that there are two national communities and three religions in this land. For justice and peace to be possible in Israel/Palestine any state or states in this land have to accommodate and give equal citizenship to all peoples across this ethnic and religious diversity.

One cannot continue to argue that the State of Israel is neccessary because it provides a secure haven for Jews against the possibility of another anti-semitic outbreak by Christians. This myth of Israel as a "safe haven" for Jews, both necessary and deserved as compensation for past anti-Semitism of the gentiles. But in fact in the last fifty years there is no place more insecure for Jews than Israel. This is not because of some "cosmic hate" against Jews by gentiles, but because Israel has been built on an antagonistic relationship to the Palestinians in particular and the Arab world in general that generates a cycle of violence. There is certainly a desire of many on all sides, Jewish Israelis and Palestinians Arabs, Muslims and Christians, and in the larger Arab world to end this cycle of violence. But this can only happen if there is a real movement on the part of Israel and the West to recognize the historical injustice to the Palestinians and to grant some sharing of land and political self-rule that would bring some ability of Palestinians to live normal lives in which they can cultivate their land, go to school and work and get medical care without threat of injury and death.

Western Christians are often led to a one-sided assumption that Jews have an exclusive "right" to Palestine by an ignorance of the actual history of the area. This land has never been a land of one people, but a land of many peoples. Many peoples lived there before the period of Hebrew hegemony in antiquity. Many peoples continued to live side by side with the Hebrews during that period of Hebrew hegemony. Many peoples have come to this area, in migrations and amalgamations of peoples and cultures, for the last 2500 years. These people became predominately Christian in the 4th century and became predominately Muslim after the 7th century, with a significant Christian minority and a tiny Jewish minority. All three communities became Arabized in language and culture.

The descendents of all those people are Palestinians. As residents, these people had the primary right to the land of Palestine in the mid-20th century. These people were still the majority, some 70 percent of the population, when the land was partitioned in 1947. Thus, whatever rights must now be given to the Israeli Jewish population, largely descended from people who immigrated to this land in the 20th century, can only be on the basis of a recent construction of a national community in the region, not on the basis of the basis of ancient religious claims. This national community has shaped its occupation of the land through a continual process of conquest and displacement of the earlier people that is fundamentally unjust. These unjust "facts" of history must be adjusted to make place for at least an equal claim to the land of those who were present as the majority population until their forced and cruel displacement over the last sixty-five years.

What then of the claim that God gave this land to the Jews in ancient times and thus they have a prior claim to it? This claim makes essentially ethnocentric assumptions about God which are unacceptable to Christian theology. However much Christians need to honor the Jewish people and Judaism as our religious ancestors, Christians cannot accept an ethnocentric notion of God and of God's election of one people at the expense of others. Fundamental to Christian theology is a belief that God is a God of all nations, all peoples. In Christ there is no more Jew or Greek (Gal. 3:28). No one people is especially favored by God against others.

There is no doubt that Jews have a deep emotional symbolic identification with the land that is rooted in ancient experience and has been carried through their religious tradition. But Palestinians also have a deep identification with the land rooted in their family and communal memories. Many Palestinians who have been refugees for more than fifty years still keep a vivid identification with their ancestral village and home. Ancient memories from more than two thousand years ago cannot be used to expel people from their homes who have been resident continually to recent times.

I have said quite a breathful, more later...

[Jor-el]

Your preocupation with the so called Israeli palestinian problem blinds you to what Gods word tells us of the future and importance of israel in the world. No mater what colour you paint it, Israel is central to Gods plan for mankind.

*snip*

Edited October 29, 2013 by Saru
Removed misrepresentation of another's post

[Jor-el]

This is the land that will one day be ISRAEL... you might as well start getting used to it...

[buckskin scout]

This is the land that will one day be ISRAEL... you might as well start getting used to it...

*snip* There are roughly 14,000,000 Jews in the world, Jews make up less than 0.2% of the world population, and make up 2% of the U.S. population today. and roughly half of the 14,000,000 live in Israel. And roughly 40% of Israeli Jews live in Tel Aviv or center of that country in metropolitan cities.

Do you know, the world population of Jews in 1948, was roughly 12,000,000. How do you like dem apples?

What about this piece of scripture found in Genesis 22:17?

¹⁷ indeed I will greatly bless you, and I will greatly multiply your seed as the stars of the heavens and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your seed shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Compared to Deuteronomy 28:62?

⁶² You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord your God.

0.2 of the world population, that experienced a population growth of roughly 2,000,000 between 1948 to 2013.

I question your mathematical skills and you're sanity if you think 7,000,000 Jews could rule all the land you posted in the map above.

*snip*

Edited October 29, 2013 by Saru
Removed personal remarks

[buckskin scout]

Your preocupation with the so called Israeli palestinian problem blinds you to what Gods word tells us of the future and importance of israel in the world. No mater what colour you paint it, Israel is central to Gods plan for mankind.

What prophecies concerning Israel does the New Testament have?

[buckskin scout]

That prophecy was already fulfilled Jor-El! The Genesis prophecy isn't going to ever be fulfilled ever again, it happened roughly 3,000 years ago during the reign of David and King Solomon. Like I said, Christian Zionists are genuinely throwbacks. Read these scripture verses...

Now Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River to the land of the Philistines and to the border of Egypt; they brought tribute and served Solomon all the days of his life.

1 Kings 4:21

For he had dominion over everything west of the River, from Tiphsah even to Gaza, over all the kings west of the River; and he had peace on all sides around about him.

1 Kings 4:24

He was the ruler over all the kings from the Euphrates River even to the land of the Philistines, and as far as the border of Egypt.

2 Chronicles 9:26

[buckskin scout]

- post removed -

Herzl and Zionism met plenty of oppostion from Jews themselves and that opposition continues today, Jor-El, and here is why...

Zionism was not merely a variant on the Jewish faith, but a very substitute for it. That the Zionist movement would arrogate to itself the agency for the restoration of the Jewish people to its ancestral land - a task uniquely for accomplishment by the Messiah - was, for Orthodox Jews, nothing short of blasphemy. Thus, rabbis representing all shades of opinion denounced Zionism as a fanaticism, and contrary to the Jewish scriptures. Herzl and his Zionism were anathema to the most influential eastern European rabbis alsmost as a matter of course. Even within the small circle of the Orthodox supporters of Zionism there was the widespread recognition that Zionism was not merely a variant on the Jewish faith, but a very substitute for it.

The Zionist movement, then, was considered to be a rebellion against classical Judaism, and with good reason. For political Zionists in general, religion was irrational, and a repressive and regressive force. For them, salvation lay in escaping from the prison of the sacred, and the hypnotic spell of the Bible. Judaism was a weight of lead attached to the feet of Jews, and was a sympton of Jewry's sickness in exile. For such people, Zionist Palestine would be new, secular, and qualitativley different from the past of the diaspora.

Understandably, therefore, the Jewish religion establishment was vehemently opposed to the Zionist programme. For Orthodox Jews the diaspora was a condition ordained by God, who alone would bring it to an end. Reform Judaism, for its part, viewing Jewish history as evolutionary and dynamic, and according no essential significance to any one period, rejected the notion that Jews outside of Palestine were 'in exile', and insisted that Jews constituted a religious community, and not a nation, and had made their homes in and had become citizens of many states.