Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
Ben Masada

What is the Truth?

130 posts in this topic

What is the Truth?

Once Jesus was asked about the Truth and he said that the Truth is the Word of God.(John 17:17) That's the Word of God which was given to the Jews only and to no other people on earth.(Psalm 147:19,20)

How is this then that so many different kinds of beliefs claim to teach the Truth? That's true but if they submit their claims to the test of Isaiah 8:20 all collapse but one.

Isaiah says in 8:20 that, "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't teach according to this word, it is because they do no teach the Truth."

Interesting to notice, Isaiah mentions above two words, "Law and the Prophets" then says that if they do not teach according to "this word" as if he had mentioned only one word it is because Judaism was in his mind. According to Judaism.

Who teaches according to the Law and the Prophets if not the Jews? It means that they are the only ones to teach according to the Truth. The only one claim that did not collapse.

Jesus himself was a good example of a Jew who taught according to the Law and the Prophets if you read Matthew 5:17-19. His Apostles followed the same method and headquartered themselves in Jerusalem to coexist peacefully with mainstream Judaism.

One day Paul decided to bring his gospel to Jerusalem and was almost killed for teaching idolatry in Jerusalem as he was preaching about Jesus as Christ, son of God and that he had resurrected.(II Timothy 2:8) It means that his gospel was different from that of the Apostles. Hence he named them false apostles for preaching about a different Jesus from the one he was preaching. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) In other words Paul did not pass the test of Isaiah 8:20 for not preaching the Truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the Truth?

Once Jesus was asked about the Truth and he said that the Truth is the Word of God.(John 17:17) That's the Word of God which was given to the Jews only and to no other people on earth.(Psalm 147:19,20)

How is this then that so many different kinds of beliefs claim to teach the Truth? That's true but if they submit their claims to the test of Isaiah 8:20 all collapse but one.

Isaiah says in 8:20 that, "To the Law and the Prophets; if they don't teach according to this word, it is because they do no teach the Truth."

Interesting to notice, Isaiah mentions above two words, "Law and the Prophets" then says that if they do not teach according to "this word" as if he had mentioned only one word it is because Judaism was in his mind. According to Judaism.

Who teaches according to the Law and the Prophets if not the Jews? It means that they are the only ones to teach according to the Truth. The only one claim that did not collapse.

Jesus himself was a good example of a Jew who taught according to the Law and the Prophets if you read Matthew 5:17-19. His Apostles followed the same method and headquartered themselves in Jerusalem to coexist peacefully with mainstream Judaism.

One day Paul decided to bring his gospel to Jerusalem and was almost killed for teaching idolatry in Jerusalem as he was preaching about Jesus as Christ, son of God and that he had resurrected.(II Timothy 2:8) It means that his gospel was different from that of the Apostles. Hence he named them false apostles for preaching about a different Jesus from the one he was preaching. (II Cor. 11:3-6,13) In other words Paul did not pass the test of Isaiah 8:20 for not preaching the Truth.

Most Christians will disagree Ben. I thtink we will soon get the answer from the One who knows for sure :) Til then - peace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is a pathless land.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ben, 2 Timothy is written in the context of Paul being imprisoned in Rome, not " almost killed for teaching idolatry in Jerusalem". Add to this that 2 Corinthians 11:3-6, 13 is not referring to the 11 apostles of Jesus, and I have no choice but to reject the entire premise of your post, except to agree that the Hebrew scriptures are indeed the word of God (I happen to believe the New Testament is also God's word though).

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The truth is a pathless land.

True.

Which is why walking it is referred to as the razor's edge.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is a pathless land.

Your metaphor makes me think; if we say that the purpose of our journey in life is truth, and we seek paths to it (which is I think the most common metaphor), then it would seem we are wasting out time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can assess what comes at us on a variety of scales. There is the good/evil scale, the beautiful/ugly scale, the useful/useless scale and related to it the valuable/worthless scale. These and no doubt others are value judgments.

The question now is whether where we put something on a true/false scale is also a value judgment. I think, having finite access to knowledge and finite wisdom, we have no choice but to largely do that -- to take as true those things from sources we trust and honor and to take as false things from sources we don't trust. Of course that means we have already made a value judgment about those sources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Your metaphor makes me think; if we say that the purpose of our journey in life is truth, and we seek paths to it (which is I think the most common metaphor), then it would seem we are wasting out time.

I do not say, " that the purpose of our journey in life is truth", Truth is a fruit of the well led life.

THE PURPOSE is a matter of 'choosing well' and executing in impeccable fashion". TRUTH is the result of living a Life with Purpose... however miniscule it might be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Truth is unattainable, and your seeming assertion otherwise strikes me as unwise. We obtain individual truths, I suppose, surrounded by caveats, and always being careful to avoid the traps of ideology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We can assess what comes at us on a variety of scales. There is the good/evil scale, the beautiful/ugly scale, the useful/useless scale and related to it the valuable/worthless scale. These and no doubt others are value judgments.

The question now is whether where we put something on a true/false scale is also a value judgment. I think, having finite access to knowledge and finite wisdom, we have no choice but to largely do that -- to take as true those things from sources we trust and honor and to take as false things from sources we don't trust. Of course that means we have already made a value judgment about those sources.

Knowledge is finite .

Wisdom is infinite.

"to take as true those things from sources we trust and honor and to take as false things from sources we don't trust." is totally lame, imho.

Trust but verify. Test the ancient wisdom on a faith based method. Apply the sacred knowledge. Observe the outcome. Adjust accordingly and proceed apace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Truth is unattainable,

Speak for yourself.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are obviously talking past each other; at least you are not listening. "Wisdom is infinite" strikes me as empty words trying to sound wise.

I included a warning about ideology, which you ignored. Faith is perhaps the most dangerous ideology there is, and I think I see clear evidence of its danger in what you have just posted.

If you actually think Truth is attainable I feel sorry for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We are obviously talking past each other; at least you are not listening. "Wisdom is infinite" strikes me as empty words trying to sound wise.

I included a warning about ideology, which you ignored. Faith is perhaps the most dangerous ideology there is, and I think I see clear evidence of its danger in what you have just posted.

If you actually think Truth is attainable I feel sorry for you.

And I obviously disagree with you.

I am not the first to observe that knowledge is finite and wisdom is infinite.

(And... just *who* is not listening?)

Faith is dangerous maybe... but only in the wrong hands. It is most efficacious for those who know how to use it properly.

Edited by Labyrinthus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you measure wisdom? What is "infinite" and how is it that it is endless (or does infinite mean something else?) This strikes me as gibberish unless you want to explain it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What is the Truth?

"Truth", in the context you place the word, is only what a person believes it to be. It has no more value as an objective measure carrying some value, than that. When considering the impact of religious teachings on the perception of "Truth", then that impact is only to limit the perception to conform to what another has believed.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my view, "truth" or "the truth" cannot be discovered through dogma. Dogma will always be someone else's truth. Any kind of conformity will never lead us to knowledge of ourselves, and truth only lies within, untouched by external influences.

I consider truth to be the deepest understanding of ourselves. If we do not look objectively deeply into our own self to discover our fundamental being, we are just mimicking what others believe to be true. This kind of truth is superficial in that it does not originate from a deep knowledge of our own basic wisdom.

I think there is a universal truth for us in a broad sense. It can be discovered by getting to know ourselves, But when we look at ourselves through the filter of conformity we will never discover what lies beyond that conformity.

Truth is the freedom to be who we really are.

Edited by StarMountainKid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How do you measure wisdom? What is "infinite" and how is it that it is endless (or does infinite mean something else?) This strikes me as gibberish unless you want to explain it.

Starting with the assertion that "Truth is unattainable"... this is only true if perception and Awareness are constrained to the material realms. For those with an open mind open enough to allow the 'mind' to be set aside for a moment, Awareness of Eternal Beingness beyond the dualistic, 0-1, hot-cold, true-false dichotomy can be recognized.

Knowledge exists only in the material universe so it is limited to the extent that the universe is bounded at some point. Also it is bounded by Time, which at some point, did not exist, then came into existence, and then will one day cease to exist.

Wisdom derives from Awareness beyond the realms of duality, beyond time and space, thus can effectively be said to be limitless and eternal/infinite (and therefore, inherently unmeasurable).

Truth is attained when the Consciousness becomes organized enough to recognize the Eternal. So yes, in the material realm truth can be asymptotically approached but never attained or reached. But the moment one recognizes Itself as an Eternal Being beyond duality one is immediately immersed In Eternal Truth (which constitutes 'attaining' truth).

Expounding on this further could get very lengthy so I will leave this here for now, as an introduction.

Edited by Labyrinthus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone who says they can define the truth for you is suspect. Truth for you is a process of internal self-discovery.

Edited by StarMountainKid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Starting with the assertion that "Truth is unattainable"... this is only true if perception and Awareness are constrained to the material realms. For those with an open mind open enough to allow the 'mind' to be set aside for a moment, Awareness of Eternal Beingness beyond the dualistic, 0-1, hot-cold, true-false dichotomy can be recognized.

Knowledge exists only in the material universe so it is limited to the extent that the universe is bounded at some point. Also it is bounded by Time, which at some point, did not exist, then came into existence, and then will one day cease to exist.

Wisdom derives from Awareness beyond the realms of duality, beyond time and space, thus can effectively be said to be limitless and eternal/infinite (and therefore, inherently unmeasurable).

Truth is attained when the Consciousness becomes organized enough to recognize the Eternal. So yes, in the material realm truth can be asymptotically approached but never attained or reached. But the moment one recognizes Itself as an Eternal Being beyond duality one is immediately immersed In Eternal Truth (which constitutes 'attaining' truth).

Expounding on this further could get very lengthy so I will leave this here for now, as an introduction.

If knowledge only exists in the material universe, as you claim, then there cannot be any "Awareness of Eternal Beingness" given that you also claim this "Awareness" lies beyond the "material realm".

There can be no awareness without knowledge, and vice-versa.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Anyone who says they can define the truth for you is suspect. Truth for you is a process of internal self-discovery.

Truth is not malleable or differentiated in essence simply because an individual unit of Consciousness reports a different perspective within the material realms.

Those who say "maybe your truth is not my truth" are defiling the Eternal. "Truth" with a capital T ceases to be Truth the moment it is rendered as a dualistic perspective.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If knowledge only exists in the material universe, as you claim, then there cannot be any "Awareness of Eternal Beingness" given that you also claim this "Awareness" lies beyond the "material realm".

There can be no awareness without knowledge, and vice-versa.

Not true.

For the purely materialistic, those who never experience anything else beyond cognition and various modes of knowledge play, your claim seems obvious. But it is not true. Perception can be and is possible without a material mind. For those who first experience this it is almost a shock to realize. It usually takes repeated experiences to begin formulating a knowledge based conception of the experience to even be able to recognize it in the brain centered processing.

Edited by Labyrinthus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not true.

For the purely materialistic, those who never experience anything else beyond cognition and various modes of knowledge play, your claim seems obvious. But it is not true. Perception can be and is possible without a material mind. For those who first experience this it is almost a shock to realize. It usually takes repeated experiences to begin formulating a knowledge based conception of the experience to even be able to recognize it in the brain centered processing.

Which is nothing to do with what I argued, or what you stated.

You stated "Knowledge exists only in the material universe."

If you are now arguing for awareness and experience of something "outside the material universe", then that directly contradicts your previous claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Truth is not malleable or differentiated in essence simply because an individual unit of Consciousness reports a different perspective within the material realms.

Those who say "maybe your truth is not my truth" are defiling the Eternal. "Truth" with a capital T ceases to be Truth the moment it is rendered as a dualistic perspective.

I've not read a definitive definition of Truth here so far, so I'm not sure what we're even talking about.

The truth I'm trying to portray is not dualistic in nature and it is not a personal truth that depends on experience or personality. In this sense, I consider Truth to be "what is" or "suchness". I think one can come to an understanding of this "what is" that includes the one who gains this understanding. This is not an intellectual understanding and does not depend on knowledge. In my view, this fundamental understanding is intrinsic in all human consciousness. It may be buried deep and not easily accessible, and therefore we do not always realize it exists, yet there is this basic level of consciousness which we all share.

I would consider Truths derived from the intellect as something completely different than this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Which is nothing to do with what I argued, or what you stated.

You stated "Knowledge exists only in the material universe."

If you are now arguing for awareness and experience of something "outside the material universe", then that directly contradicts your previous claim.

It is not at all contaradictory. If you can only recognize awareness and experience as being limited to what can be processed intellectually within the realm of 'knowledge' -- I can see that it will appear to be so to those who are purely materialistic and not just grounded in brain centered cognition but limited entirely to that mode of operation. It requires a major paradigm shift to just be able to begin to grasp this idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is not at all contaradictory. If you can only recognize awareness and experience as being limited to what can be processed intellectually within the realm of 'knowledge' -- I can see that it will appear to be so to those who are purely materialistic and not just grounded in brain centered cognition but limited entirely to that mode of operation. It requires a major paradigm shift to just be able to begin to grasp this idea.

Cutting away the waffle, how can one be 'aware' without any "intellectual processing"?

I never mentioned "brain centred cognition" and never promoted "materialism" - these are just strawmen introduced by you to make my argument rebuttable. So please don't bring things I haven't claimed into your reply - simply answer how "awareness" cannot be knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.