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zoser

Astrology and Human Trends

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I'm not sure if anyone on UM is actually interested in this subject and I haven't seen many posts about it. I'm therefore not expecting a huge response but nonetheless I thought I would give it a go since it has been an interest of mine over the years although less so today than it once was.

My question is how does Pluto signify mass trends in thoughts and attitudes?

I have noticed a dramatic shift in the last half a dozen years or so markedly towards pragmatism in the world. Examples are more people seem skeptical than they used to be as a general feature. There seems to be less of an interest in sci fi as an example.

This seemed to coincide with Pluto entering the sign of Capricorn. This sign being commonly associated with pragmatic affairs.

Prior to this Pluto was in Sagittarius and we saw people migrating around the world. This sign is traditionally been associated with freedom and expanding one's horizons.

Prior to that Scorpio, then Libra, with corresponding mass attitude shifts (or so it would seem).

Make of it what you will. It's a hunch, and nothing more; do people take an interest in this subject any more?

Z

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How is a dwarf planet at the fringes of the solar system having this effect, exactly?

I haven't seen any mass attitude shifts on this planet. People are still more sympathetic towards white collar criminals than they are towards drug addicts and prostitutes. People are still killing each other for ideological differences. People are still more concerned with which celebrity had a wardrobe malfunction this week than they are with the plight of their fellow human.

Instead of sitting around waiting for Pluto to be in the right constellation to change peoples attitudes, why don't you go out and try to change them yourself?

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How is a dwarf planet at the fringes of the solar system having this effect, exactly?

The very basis of astrology. Energies that we do not see or even feel that nonetheless affect everything at least in the automatic realms.

And as for size; other's should tell you that does not really matter.

I haven't seen any mass attitude shifts on this planet. People are still more sympathetic towards white collar criminals than they are towards drug addicts and prostitutes. People are still killing each other for ideological differences. People are still more concerned with which celebrity had a wardrobe malfunction this week than they are with the plight of their fellow human.

I'm talking in much more subtle terms than that. Things that affect the masses and not what happens to a small minority.

Instead of sitting around waiting for Pluto to be in the right constellation to change peoples attitudes, why don't you go out and try to change them yourself?

I'm not sure it's my right and permission to do so. The chips will come down on this planet soon enough; you need not worry about that. In the meantime why not explore these great mysteries?

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It seems to me that if celestial objects had an affect on human lives, the sheer number of asteroids would muddy the waters and render any type of prediction ineffective.

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Whether the cause be astrologically or not I have noticed an increasing pragmatism among many perhaps it's a by product of the rampant capitalist culture we live in (or vice versa) where a materialistic reductive view of life which concerns itself little with broad perspectives but rather on the parochial, trivial and crass commercialism is upheld. It's a worrying trend and might point toward a spiritual malaise as we become ever more decadent and enthralled by our own sense of hubris.

Edited by aimlesswalk
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It seems to me that if celestial objects had an affect on human lives, the sheer number of asteroids would muddy the waters and render any type of prediction ineffective.

Some astrologers do take asteroids into consideration. Chiron as an example. Don't forget you are talking about an ancient science here by many cultures east and west. How likely is it that astrology is a work of pure fiction?

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Whether the cause be astrologically or not I have noticed an increasing pragmatism among many perhaps it's a by product of the rampant capitalist culture we live in (or vice versa) where a materialistic reductive view of life which concerns itself little with broad perspectives but rather on the parochial, trivial and crass commercialism is upheld. It's a worrying trend and might point toward a spiritual malaise as we become ever more decadent and enthralled by our own sense of hubris.

I concur with that and the causes of the pragmatism may indeed lie in these things. Astrology seems to me to be a kind of mirror, or litmus paper indicating the state of affairs; I don't see it as a cause as such. The apparent synchronicity intrigues me though.

Edited by zoser
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How likely is it that astrology is a work of pure fiction?

Given the number of writers I know who work writing astrology columns for national papers (and for big name astrologers) I can tell you - 100% fiction.

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I wasn't aware that age guarantees veracity.

I am asking from a practical standpoint. If celestial objects influence human action, then all such objects must be considered, or perhaps only those objects of a certain size and larger. An astrologer would then need to be aware of all large asteroids in order to make accurate predictions. So how does an astrologer gain that knowledge?

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Given the number of writers I know who work writing astrology columns for national papers (and for big name astrologers) I can tell you - 100% fiction.

Popular astrology is not the same thing Emma. It's done by showmen mainly.

Once again inadequate research on your part Emma I'm afraid.

Edited by zoser

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I wasn't aware that age guarantees veracity.

I am asking from a practical standpoint. If celestial objects influence human action, then all such objects must be considered, or perhaps only those objects of a certain size and larger. An astrologer would then need to be aware of all large asteroids in order to make accurate predictions. So how does an astrologer gain that knowledge?

Many processes on earth (including bodily processes) are a result of the moon and moon cycles. Gravity works at very large distances. Planets influencing us in very subtle ways is not so far fetched. To see what kinds of influence it might have, we just have to turn to physics. Calculate the force of gravity Pluto (or any large celestial mass) has on us (probably using the average molecular mass of some chemicals that are present in our bodies) from it's current position. Large masses such as planets are relatively fixated in distance from us than an asteroid. The force doesn't change as much compared to the asteroid which could explain why asteroids would not necessarily be included. But let's not forget that astrology is based on observations and tendencies over many many years. They don't claim to have a formula -- they claim that given observational patterns from the past, they can give predictions of how you might be influenced in the future. You don't have to know how a pattern works in order to recognize that there is a pattern.

We always have the ability to overcome any influence because consciousness gives us choice, but it doesn't mean that chemical imbalances can't subtly affect our decisions.

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Then what is the basis of astrology? The actual effect of gravity on humans, or predictions based on past patterns of behavior?

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Some astrologers do take asteroids into consideration. Chiron as an example. Don't forget you are talking about an ancient science here by many cultures east and west. How likely is it that astrology is a work of pure fiction?

It's a piecemeal bit of intellectual stimulation at best. Each society has a different form of of the Zodiac, and the sun doesn't rise in the same sign that it did two thousand years ago. Combine that with the fact that a mechanism has never been identified, and that no two astrologists can agree on what their discipline is about, and you've got all the elements you need for grade A bunkum.

If you wan't to find a factual basis for astrology, look not to the stars but to the seasonal effects on foetuses in utero. I think ancient people may have noticed a correlation between certain traits and the month the person was born, but linked it to a celestial cause instead of an environmental one. I'll try to find an article on the subject.

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Then what is the basis of astrology? The actual effect of gravity on humans, or predictions based on past patterns of behavior?

I'm just saying that the effects of gravity might be a legitimate explanation, which is not necessarily the basis. Astrology itself may have started from pure observation. And as Almagest says, ancient peoples may have looked to the stars to explain the observations. They might not be too far off though if in fact effects of gravity can be determined to be a culprit.

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Did you know that the doctor who delivered you had a stronger gravitational effect on you than any of the other planets in the solar system?

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Did you know that the doctor who delivered you had a stronger gravitational effect on you than any of the other planets in the solar system?

This isn't true. Let's just play with factors of 10:

Force of gravity on you from a typical planet:

M*m*G / r^2

10^24 * 10 * 10^-11 / (10^6)^2 = 100

Give or take an order of magnitude. After crunching some numbers using Mars, I get roughly 0.5N of force or about 0.1 lbs.

Now consider you at birth:

10*10*10^-11 / (10^-1) ^2 = 10^-11

The force on us from any planet is ridiculously greater than any person.

***Note that the calculations are very rough estimates, but all we need to check are the orders of magnitude to get an idea of which forces are greater

Edited by all16universes

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Oh whoops. That should be 10^-9 instead of 10^-11 -- forgot to include the denominator. Still incredibly large in comparison ;)

Edited by all16universes

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I'm going to have to concede and withdraw that point since I'm terrible at mathematics.

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Many processes on earth (including bodily processes) are a result of the moon and moon cycles. Gravity works at very large distances. Planets influencing us in very subtle ways is not so far fetched. To see what kinds of influence it might have, we just have to turn to physics. Calculate the force of gravity Pluto (or any large celestial mass) has on us (probably using the average molecular mass of some chemicals that are present in our bodies) from it's current position. Large masses such as planets are relatively fixated in distance from us than an asteroid. The force doesn't change as much compared to the asteroid which could explain why asteroids would not necessarily be included. But let's not forget that astrology is based on observations and tendencies over many many years. They don't claim to have a formula -- they claim that given observational patterns from the past, they can give predictions of how you might be influenced in the future. You don't have to know how a pattern works in order to recognize that there is a pattern.

We always have the ability to overcome any influence because consciousness gives us choice, but it doesn't mean that chemical imbalances can't subtly affect our decisions.

I would pretty well agree with that. The planets are mechanical. That's certain.The idea of synchronicity is still to be explained though. We are creatures of free will, that's indisputable (within the limits of our personal development), but the great mystery for me is how does this apparent synchronicity between life events and the planets occur?

I honestly don't know.

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Popular astrology is not the same thing Emma. It's done by showmen mainly.

Once again inadequate research on your part Emma I'm afraid.

I'll concede it when you show that there's an actually difference between "popular" astrology and otherwise.

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I would pretty well agree with that. The planets are mechanical. That's certain.The idea of synchronicity is still to be explained though. We are creatures of free will, that's indisputable (within the limits of our personal development), but the great mystery for me is how does this apparent synchronicity between life events and the planets occur?

I honestly don't know.

I do have a hypothesis in regards to synchronicity, but this is separate from astrology. Here goes:

There's a guy by the name Neil Slade out there promoting the works of a man called T.D.A. Lingo. Lingo apparently was in school for neuroscience. Either before, after, or during (I don't remember) he enlisted or was drafted for some war (it might have been WWII but again I don't remember). He comes back and asks the question "why must I fight my brother?" His professor tells him that he won't find his answer at the university -- he needs to do his own research to find the answers he was looking for. He left school to found an institute to find his answers.

What they discovered is that there is a part of your brain called the amygdala (we have two) associated with your emotions. They act like a light switch and are connected to your nose (perhaps as a way to sense danger). When we are happy they push forward and allow us to use our frontal lobes (which allow for higher level thinking), and if we experience negative emotions it flips backwards and pushing us to use primal, lower level instincts (think fight or flight). What's fascinating is that they found that the feeling of enlightenment and nirvana (and a feeling of "oneness" with the universe) occurs if you push these switches completely forward (referred to as "popping your frontal lobes"). There were studies done on cats and mice where they induced nirvana in cats by pushing the amygdalas forward (called kindling). The cats were completely peaceful and playful with the cats after having this done.

They found that people can consciously control this switch and "pop" their frontal lobes with thought alone with enough practice. What effects does this have on people? A feeling of enlightenment, but also apparently synchronicity -- all the time.

What is synchronicity? It's when something is on your mind, and suddenly it manifests itself in the physical world. This isn't the best explanation but more or less sufficient.

Now let's talk about your subconscious mind. Many things are taken care of by our subconscious minds (many things that keep you alive). For instance, or breathing and heartbeat. Imagine if you forgot to breath or forgot to beat your heart -- we die. Part of the duty of the subconscious is to keep you alive. It's also constantly taking in information around you and filtering out useless information and allows your conscious mind to be aware of information that keeps us alive. Imagine if this didn't happen and you were consciously aware of everything around you. You might never leave your house because you are overwhelmed by everything you're taking in. To keep you alive it's necessary that information not increasing your survival is thrown away by your subconscious. Of course you can choose consciously to be aware of things but your subconscious probably already decided it wasn't useful by the time you decided to pay attention to it. On top of this your subconscious is an incredible problem solving machine -- it needs to be to keep you alive. Unfortunately, the subconscious only works out those problems that involve your survival...

Suppose you could freely communicate to your subconscious mind and tell it what YOU think is important. It would work miracles for you because it has access to ALL information around you including the slightest details you are completely oblivious to.

I hypothesize that by "popping" your frontal lobes we open communication to or subconscious. You have conscious thoughts and your powerhouse of a subconscious pulls in every piece of info around you to find or make this thought come to be because it believes it needs it for you to survive. And when it does happen we experience synchronicity. If we don't have control over this communication, synchronicity still may occur but not consistently if you weren't in a happy/blissful state (these emotions switch the amygdalas forward).

Think about how this could explain prayer and acts of "god" and possibly the many religious prophets and the supposed miracles they performed. Not to mention the feeling of "oneness", and enlightenment. Perhaps their way to explain this at the time was through a god or higher power, when all along it was really just them having open communication with a deeper part of their conciousness.

Thoughts?

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.

Edited by all16universes

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Did pluto only become a factor after it's discovery?

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Wouldn't the gravitational effect of Pluto be microscopic compared to Earth's gravity? Wouldn't the Earth's gravity simply overwhelm Pluto's?

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Wouldn't the gravitational effect of Pluto be microscopic compared to Earth's gravity? Wouldn't the Earth's gravity simply overwhelm Pluto's?

I crunched some numbers and it turns out Pluto would have almost an equivalent gravitational effect as the doctor would when you were born. I'd say this is insignificant but consider the following:

The gravitational effects of the moon cause our tides, but the force it creates is only about 4.5*10^-4 lbs -- microscopic compared to that of the Earth, but the effects are not. We can extend this and say that since our bodies consist mostly of water and that chemicals in our bodies are transported via fluids, there's a good chance some of the fluid flow in our bodies (and thus the transport of chemicals in our bodies) MIGHT be influenced from celestial bodies. Furthermore, the position of these celestial bodies is important for determining the total force (and direction of the force) we experience. This isn't to say that planets definitely affect our decisions, but that it's a possible scientific explanation if there exists any truth to astrology at all.

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