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davros of skaro

Son of God Divi Filius Augustus Caesar

56 posts in this topic

The great Comet of 44 BCE was seen as Julius Caesar's soul among the Gods.Octavian the grand nephew of Caesar,adopted son,and heir to his title became son of a God.

Augustus Caesar as Pontifex Maximus (Pope) started the Imperial Cult,and the Cult of Comet for the worship of the Deified Caesar.

Why do we not worship Caesar today? Watch the video,and feel free to comment.

Wiki for base reference

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divi_filius

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar's_Comet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamen_Dialis

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Without watching any link, I submit exhibit A, thanks to the Walking Dead thread in this forum.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/undeniable-proof-that-the-walking-dead-and-toy-story-have-th?s=mobile

In any historical study we can choose to fit the facts into the story, or we can construct the story to fit the facts. From experience, the OP tends to construct a story and then fit the facts into that story.

The link I provided should show how such an approach is invalid.

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In any historical study we can choose to fit the facts into the story, or we can construct the story to fit the facts. From experience, the OP tends to construct a story and then fit the facts into that story.

The link I provided should show how such an approach is invalid.

With all due respect, PA, I've noticed you doing exactly that on some other threads. I admit it is hard to do; thus, we need to be extremely careful in our analyses. Usually, there aren't enough "facts" to justify anybody's interpretation. Example: Try to validate the traditional Christian viewpoint using only observable facts.

Doug

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Without watching any link, I submit exhibit A, thanks to the Walking Dead thread in this forum.

http://www.buzzfeed....ave-th?s=mobile

In any historical study we can choose to fit the facts into the story, or we can construct the story to fit the facts. From experience, the OP tends to construct a story and then fit the facts into that story.

The link I provided should show how such an approach is invalid.

Without watching any link, I submit exhibit A, thanks to the Walking Dead thread in this forum.

http://www.buzzfeed....ave-th?s=mobile

In any historical study we can choose to fit the facts into the story, or we can construct the story to fit the facts. From experience, the OP tends to construct a story and then fit the facts into that story.

The link I provided should show how such an approach is invalid.

The video I posted is backed by historical documentation, and physical proof.

You present Hollywood fiction.

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With all due respect, PA, I've noticed you doing exactly that on some other threads. I admit it is hard to do; thus, we need to be extremely careful in our analyses. Usually, there aren't enough "facts" to justify anybody's interpretation. Example: Try to validate the traditional Christian viewpoint using only observable facts.

Doug

Due to only having a phone and limited bandwidth I haven't seen the video, but the OP's track history suggests he's attempting to argue that Caesar is the template for the Jesus tale. In order to do this one must stretch the known facts and for them into a narrative. The link I provided showed the problem in this, since whoever constructed that web page was able to stretch the similarities to "prove" that a zombie-apocalypse episodic TV-show was based on a Family movie about cute talking toys. But if you look at the wider story of the two, there is almost nothing in common between Toy Story and The Walking Dead, let alone a reason to think that one of them copied the other.

In essence, Davros is taking the Jesus narrative, and attempting to force Julius Caesar's life into that narrative.

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The video I posted is backed by historical documentation, and physical proof.

You present Hollywood fiction.

You missed my point. By taking superficial similarities and stretching/twisting them, it can be made to appear that two narratives are near-identical, but when you actually look at the content there is virtually nothing in common. In similar vein, you take the Jesus-narrative, and try and "fit" the life of Caesar into that narrative. Sorry Davros, but that's just not how a real historian conducts business.

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I also haven't watched the clip, but would argue that 'historians' of the period see how the 'son of god' had numerous prototypes in the Greco Roman world.

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You missed my point. By taking superficial similarities and stretching/twisting them, it can be made to appear that two narratives are near-identical, but when you actually look at the content there is virtually nothing in common. In similar vein, you take the Jesus-narrative, and try and "fit" the life of Caesar into that narrative. Sorry Davros, but that's just not how a real historian conducts business.

You missed my point, because I am working with historical facts not childrens tales, and resurrected zombie drama. :whistle:

Julius Caesar 100 BCE- 44 BCE

Assassinated dictator of Rome.Later deified as a God thru the Great Comet of 44 BCE which

laid ground work for the Imperial Cult (first historical Roman to be officially deified.)

Caesar claimed lineage to his celestial mother the Goddess of love Venus (aka Morning

Star.)

Caesar practiced—and widely publicized—his policy of clemency (he would put no one to

death and confiscate no property).Caesar proposed a law for the redistribution of public

lands to the poor,In his will he also left a substantial gift to the citizens of Rome.

The Senate named Caesar dictator perpetuo ("dictator in perpetuity"). Roman mints

produced a denarius coin with this title and his profile on one side, and with an image

of the goddess Ceres and Caesar's title of Augur Pontifex Maximus on the reverse. While

minting the title of dictator was not controversial, Caesar's image was, as it was

unusual to feature living consuls and other public officials on coins during the Republic.

Suetonius also gives the story that a crowd shouted to him rex ("king"), to which Caesar

replied, "I am Caesar, not Rex".

The poet Virgil wrote in the Georgics (26 BCE) that several unusual events took place

following Caesar's assassination.

He,no other was moved to pity Rome on the day that Caesar died,when he veiled his

radiance in gloom,darkness,and a Godless age feared everlasting night.

He goes on to write:

The Alps rocked with Earthquakes.

Mount Etna hurled balls of fire.

Animals uttered speech,and showed signs that heralded disaster.

Booming voices heard in the falling darkness,and the Earth gaped open while rivers stood

still etc.

Besides his own writings "Commentaries Gallic Wars", other examples of historicity for

Julius Caesar includes.

~ Sallust (86-34BC);

~ Suetonius (c75-120AD)1

~ Plutarch (46-127AD).

~ Appian (c95-165AD)

~ Cicero

~ Dio Cassius

~ Livy

~ Lucan

~ Valerius Maximus

~ Vitruvius

~ Catullus

Plus:

~ inscriptions

~monuments

~statues

~coins

Augustus (Octavius) Caesar 63 BCE- 14 CE

Grand nephew, and adopted son of Julius Caesar in which he inherited his title.Rome's

first Emperor, and ushered in the Pax Romana which was peace across the Empire.As

Pontifex Maximus (Pope) he enacted the Imperial Cult, and the Cult of Comet for the

worship of Caesar.

Philo of Alexandria 20 BCE- 50 CE

Hellenistic Jewish philosopher born into Roman citizenship thanks beforehand to Julius

Caesar.He combined Jewish philosophy with Greek philosophy, and it's believed to have

influenced later Christology.He was a part of an embassy to Rome in 40 CE to prevent

Emperor Caligula erecting statues in synagogues, end turmoil between Alexandrian Jewish

and Greek communities.Philo sourced Jewish scripture from the Septuagint (Greek

translation of the Old Testament), and used concept of "Logos".Logos is a celestial high priest

that is a shadow of God which is the expiator of sins, mediator, and advocate for men.

http://en.wikipedia....f_God#The_Logos (see Logos)

Jesus 6 BCE- 33 CE?

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus , have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the

churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.

Son of God, and saviour.There is no contemporary mention of Jesus by anyone, but

historians know that "argument from silence" is a fallacy , and does not negate

historicity.Most scholars agree that Jesus existed, but keep in mind taboos associated

with talking about religion.In reality the Gospels, and the Pauline Epistles are the only

evidence for Jesus.

In 1909 John Remsburg published The Christ, and he lists 42 silent writers at around the

time of Jesus.

http://www.positivea...st/rmsbrg02.htm

Additional cited references;

http://rationalwiki....of_Jesus_Christ

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Apostle Paul aka Saul of Tarsus circa 5 BCE?- circa 67 CE? The letters of Paul that are

considered non-psuedogrphical talks of a Jesus that is more like Philo's Logos than a

historical person.

http://rationalwiki..../Paul_of_Tarsus

The Pauline Epistles date from 51-58 CE, and Paul does not claim to have met Jesus, but a

post resurrection revelation.

http://en.wikipedia....auline_epistles

The four Canonical Gospels are named Mark, Matthew etc out of church tradition, because

the authors are unknown.As evidenced by many scholars they are sourced from the

Septuagint for Old Testament references, and contain many contradictions to each other.

Mark 65-70 CE

Matthew 75-80 CE

Luke 75-90 CE

John 85-100? CE

John 1:35-1:42 says Jesus's first disciples,are also disciples of John the Baptist,which

are Andrew,and brother Simon Peter along the Jordan river.Matthew 4:18 says his first

disciples are fishing in the Sea of Galilee.

Did he go to Egypt after his birth? (Matt 2:12-15)

Or did his parents take him straight back to Nazareth? (Luke 2:39)

At his trial before Pilate, did Jesus remain silent? (Matt 27:14)

Or did he answer all questions put to him? (John 18:33-37)

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Septuagint

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0879755725

http://www.npr.org/t...ryId=124572693

Coins of Divi Filius Son of God.

post-142153-0-36507400-1383179450_thumb.

post-142153-0-85834700-1383179456_thumb.

post-142153-0-73451700-1383179465_thumb.

post-142153-0-24966900-1383179485_thumb.

post-142153-0-37315100-1383179508_thumb.

post-142153-0-67397000-1383179536_thumb.

post-142153-0-78699400-1383179557_thumb.

post-142153-0-96498200-1383179577_thumb.

post-142153-0-95770400-1383179599_thumb.

post-142153-0-92107200-1383179623_thumb.

post-142153-0-15601800-1383179658_thumb.

post-142153-0-62770700-1383179677_thumb.

post-142153-0-60780200-1383179704_thumb.

post-142153-0-45554700-1383179717_thumb.

post-142153-0-14882000-1383179730_thumb.

post-142153-0-00958500-1383179746_thumb.

post-142153-0-17355900-1383179764_thumb.

post-142153-0-38748200-1383179769_thumb.

post-142153-0-97849300-1383179775_thumb.

post-142153-0-17059100-1383179783_thumb.

post-142153-0-01803700-1383179795_thumb.

post-142153-0-81922300-1383179817_thumb.

post-142153-0-96912100-1383179834_thumb.

post-142153-0-64751900-1383179844_thumb.

post-142153-0-89786400-1383179853_thumb.

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, and resurrected zombie drama.

And I think that clears up who missed what point.

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I also haven't watched the clip, but would argue that 'historians' of the period see how the 'son of god' had numerous prototypes in the Greco Roman world.

How many of these claimed offspring of a God can be traced to an actual historical person in the Greco Roman world?

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I just wonder what would have happened if this was done: A stack of indestructible books containing the foundation of modern scientific principles, written in Latin, were left to the 1st century Roman empire...by thousands.

Barry Allen Edit: Anybody consider Ebionites as the true followers of Jesus of Nazareth?

Edited by ambelamba

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I just wonder what would have happened if this was done: A stack of indestructible books containing the foundation of modern scientific principles, written in Latin, were left to the 1st century Roman empire...by thousands.

Barry Allen Edit: Anybody consider Ebionites as the true followers of Jesus of Nazareth?

That would be interesting, and I imagine Hypatia would not have died a brutal death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypatia

Did Ebionites exist?

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You missed my point, because I am working with historical facts not childrens tales, and resurrected zombie drama. :whistle:

They are still two narratives unrelated to one another that appear similar if you stretch some random facts to appear similar

Julius Caesar 100 BCE- 44 BCE

Assassinated dictator of Rome.Later deified as a God thru the Great Comet of 44 BCE which

laid ground work for the Imperial Cult (first historical Roman to be officially deified.)

Caesar claimed lineage to his celestial mother the Goddess of love Venus (aka Morning

Star.)

Caesar practiced—and widely publicized—his policy of clemency (he would put no one to

death and confiscate no property).Caesar proposed a law for the redistribution of public

lands to the poor,In his will he also left a substantial gift to the citizens of Rome.

The Senate named Caesar dictator perpetuo ("dictator in perpetuity"). Roman mints

produced a denarius coin with this title and his profile on one side, and with an image

of the goddess Ceres and Caesar's title of Augur Pontifex Maximus on the reverse. While

minting the title of dictator was not controversial, Caesar's image was, as it was

unusual to feature living consuls and other public officials on coins during the Republic.

Suetonius also gives the story that a crowd shouted to him rex ("king"), to which Caesar

replied, "I am Caesar, not Rex".

The poet Virgil wrote in the Georgics (26 BCE) that several unusual events took place

following Caesar's assassination.

He,no other was moved to pity Rome on the day that Caesar died,when he veiled his

radiance in gloom,darkness,and a Godless age feared everlasting night.

He goes on to write:

The Alps rocked with Earthquakes.

Mount Etna hurled balls of fire.

Animals uttered speech,and showed signs that heralded disaster.

Booming voices heard in the falling darkness,and the Earth gaped open while rivers stood

still etc.

Besides his own writings "Commentaries Gallic Wars", other examples of historicity for

Julius Caesar includes.

~ Sallust (86-34BC);

~ Suetonius (c75-120AD)1

~ Plutarch (46-127AD).

~ Appian (c95-165AD)

~ Cicero

~ Dio Cassius

~ Livy

~ Lucan

~ Valerius Maximus

~ Vitruvius

~ Catullus

Plus:

~ inscriptions

~monuments

~statues

~coins

Augustus (Octavius) Caesar 63 BCE- 14 CE

Grand nephew, and adopted son of Julius Caesar in which he inherited his title.Rome's

first Emperor, and ushered in the Pax Romana which was peace across the Empire.As

Pontifex Maximus (Pope) he enacted the Imperial Cult, and the Cult of Comet for the

worship of Caesar.

Philo of Alexandria 20 BCE- 50 CE

Hellenistic Jewish philosopher born into Roman citizenship thanks beforehand to Julius

Caesar.He combined Jewish philosophy with Greek philosophy, and it's believed to have

influenced later Christology.He was a part of an embassy to Rome in 40 CE to prevent

Emperor Caligula erecting statues in synagogues, end turmoil between Alexandrian Jewish

and Greek communities.Philo sourced Jewish scripture from the Septuagint (Greek

translation of the Old Testament), and used concept of "Logos".Logos is a celestial high priest

that is a shadow of God which is the expiator of sins, mediator, and advocate for men.

http://en.wikipedia....f_God#The_Logos (see Logos)

Jesus 6 BCE- 33 CE?

Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus , have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the

churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.

Son of God, and saviour.There is no contemporary mention of Jesus by anyone, but

historians know that "argument from silence" is a fallacy , and does not negate

historicity.Most scholars agree that Jesus existed, but keep in mind taboos associated

with talking about religion.In reality the Gospels, and the Pauline Epistles are the only

evidence for Jesus.

In 1909 John Remsburg published The Christ, and he lists 42 silent writers at around the

time of Jesus.

http://www.positivea...st/rmsbrg02.htm

Additional cited references;

http://rationalwiki....of_Jesus_Christ

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

Apostle Paul aka Saul of Tarsus circa 5 BCE?- circa 67 CE? The letters of Paul that are

considered non-psuedogrphical talks of a Jesus that is more like Philo's Logos than a

historical person.

http://rationalwiki..../Paul_of_Tarsus

The Pauline Epistles date from 51-58 CE, and Paul does not claim to have met Jesus, but a

post resurrection revelation.

http://en.wikipedia....auline_epistles

The four Canonical Gospels are named Mark, Matthew etc out of church tradition, because

the authors are unknown.As evidenced by many scholars they are sourced from the

Septuagint for Old Testament references, and contain many contradictions to each other.

Mark 65-70 CE

Matthew 75-80 CE

Luke 75-90 CE

John 85-100? CE

John 1:35-1:42 says Jesus's first disciples,are also disciples of John the Baptist,which

are Andrew,and brother Simon Peter along the Jordan river.Matthew 4:18 says his first

disciples are fishing in the Sea of Galilee.

Did he go to Egypt after his birth? (Matt 2:12-15)

Or did his parents take him straight back to Nazareth? (Luke 2:39)

At his trial before Pilate, did Jesus remain silent? (Matt 27:14)

Or did he answer all questions put to him? (John 18:33-37)

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Septuagint

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0879755725

http://www.npr.org/t...ryId=124572693

Coins of Divi Filius Son of God.

Is it just me or does it seem that people obsessed with one conspiracy theory or another is compelled to copy-paste their alleged evidence over and over, as if anyone reading it will shout "Hallelujah, you've really figured it out". Edited by Paranoid Android
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Did Ebionites exist?

Very briefly.

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How many of these claimed offspring of a God can be traced to an actual historical person in the Greco Roman world?

Caesar was voted posthumous divine honours. Demetrius poliorcetes was voted divine honours whilst he was alive. Lysander was another, there are more, including Alexander and his father Phil. Both who had divine honours awarded during their lives. More than anyone it is likely that Alexander paved the way for peoples acceptance of the concept in the Greek and Roman world

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They are still two narratives unrelated to one another that appear similar if you stretch some random facts to appear similar

Would this be another example of the point you are trying to make?

Mark 8:23 When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him.

Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars The Life of Vespasian p299 chapter 7 line 2

Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them.

Hadrian's letter to Servianus 134 CE "The worshipers of Serapis are called Christians,and those who are devoted to the god Serapis,call themselves Bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis."

Is it just me or does it seem that people obsessed with one conspiracy theory or another is compelled to copy-paste their alleged evidence over and over, as if anyone reading it will shout "Hallelujah, you've really figured it out".

Is it me, or does it seem like believers use weak apologetic arguments instead of doing actual research because they are afraid of what they might find, and just nit pick as if victorious?

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Caesar was voted posthumous divine honours. Demetrius poliorcetes was voted divine honours whilst he was alive. Lysander was another, there are more, including Alexander and his father Phil. Both who had divine honours awarded during their lives. More than anyone it is likely that Alexander paved the way for peoples acceptance of the concept in the Greek and Roman world

Exactly, and such a concept is nothing new, but was used politicaly.

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Due to only having a phone and limited bandwidth I haven't seen the video, but the OP's track history suggests he's attempting to argue that Caesar is the template for the Jesus tale. In order to do this one must stretch the known facts and for them into a narrative. The link I provided showed the problem in this, since whoever constructed that web page was able to stretch the similarities to "prove" that a zombie-apocalypse episodic TV-show was based on a Family movie about cute talking toys. But if you look at the wider story of the two, there is almost nothing in common between Toy Story and The Walking Dead, let alone a reason to think that one of them copied the other.

In essence, Davros is taking the Jesus narrative, and attempting to force Julius Caesar's life into that narrative.

Let's see here. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD. The biblical Jesus was executed in 33 AD. The earliest known snippet of text to make it into the gospels is a quotation from Philo written in 41 AD describing the hazing of a mentally-challenged man named Carabbas in which the tormenters placed a purple robe on him and hung a sign around his neck that read "King of the Jews." Sound familiar?

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew. Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

I can make a circumstantial case for Matthew and Mark having been written between 132 and 135 AD, but there is no actual reference to them from that time. Whether Luke/Acts was a source for Marcion (excommunicated in 144AD), or whether Marcion was a source for Luke/Acts has never been clearly demonstrated. One can argue forever whether Justin ("Second Apology"; c. 152 AD) quoted from the gospels or whether the gospel writers quoted Justin, but I note that Justin's sources weren't the modern gospels - Justin tells of the Jordan catching fire as Jesus emerges from it after being baptized. That story didn't come from the modern versions.

One can also trace the evolution of Jesus' divinity by comparing the dates of ancient writings: in earlier ones there is no mention of his divinity, but as time passes, stories of his divinity get added.

All things considered, basing the Jesus stories in part on Augustus Caesar fits right into the way things were done in those days. I agree that there is no solid evidence that this was done, but then again, there is no solid evidence that this wasn't done.

Doug

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Would this be another example of the point you are trying to make?

Mark 8:23 When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him.

Suetonius, The Lives of the Caesars The Life of Vespasian p299 chapter 7 line 2

Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them.

Hadrian's letter to Servianus 134 CE "The worshipers of Serapis are called Christians,and those who are devoted to the god Serapis,call themselves Bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis."

ideally I'd like the full context of the quote. I googled the text from Suetonius and the first links that popped up were pro-copycat videos saying "see, proof of Jesus myth". That always raises a red flag for me since a google search of this normally links to scholarly sites if there is actual basis for it in scholarship (eg, when I google the phrase "Isis-Meri" the first links are always to Horus = copycat Messiah for Jesus).

But assuming the quote is contextually accurate, at least it's a million times better than the absurd parallels suggested like "Jesus had an affinity for the masses, Caesar had an affinity for the masses, therefore this is evidence Jesus copied from Caesar".

s it me, or does it seem like believers use weak apologetic arguments instead of doing actual research because they are afraid of what they might find, and just nit pick as if victorious?

I was simply pointing out the futility in constantly posting a massive Wall of Text (link). Those who are passionate about a conspiracy topic often employ the tactic because they feel that anyone who reads it must agree with the (in their mind) obviousness of the information. Unfortunately what actually happens is that people go cross-eyed and simply skim the material (or else skip the post altogether). Especially when it's repeated over and over through several threads. Edited by Paranoid Android

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ideally I'd like the full context of the quote. I googled the text from Suetonius and the first links that popped up were pro-copycat videos saying "see, proof of Jesus myth". That always raises a red flag for me since a google search of this normally links to scholarly sites if there is actual basis for it in scholarship (eg, when I google the phrase "Isis-Meri" the first links are always to Horus = copycat Messiah for Jesus).

But assuming the quote is contextually accurate, at least it's a million times better than the absurd parallels suggested like "Jesus had an affinity for the masses, Caesar had an affinity for the masses, therefore this is evidence Jesus copied from Caesar".

I was simply pointing out the futility in constantly posting a massive Wall of Text (link). Those who are passionate about a conspiracy topic often employ the tactic because they feel that anyone who reads it must agree with the (in their mind) obviousness of the information. Unfortunately what actually happens is that people go cross-eyed and simply skim the material (or else skip the post altogether). Especially when it's repeated over and over through several threads.

Hi P.A.

Not the Seotonius quote,But concerning The Letter to Servanius:

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. [The letter continues on to non-religious matters.]

From the Historia Augusta.Roughly dated to the 4th century http://en.wikipedia....ki/Talk:Serapis

Glanwill W. Bowersock, in a proceeding volume of the Genevan conference on the Historiae Augusae gives a scholastic survey of the dating of the texts. He writes:

“The presence of fiction in the
Historia
Augusta
is by now an established fact. The mischievous author of this work pretended, as we all know, to be writing historical biographies; but this pretense, though compelling the inclusion of genuine historical material, imposed no perceptible limits on his wit and invention.”

Günter Stemberger (PhD Jewish studies, Innsbruck and Göttingen), commenting on the Serapis letter confirms, “We should hardly assume the existence of an actual event on which these remarks were based.”

For more info

Hope it helps
:tu: Edited by Dash--

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Let's see here. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD. The biblical Jesus was executed in 33 AD. The earliest known snippet of text to make it into the gospels is a quotation from Philo written in 41 AD describing the hazing of a mentally-challenged man named Carabbas in which the tormenters placed a purple robe on him and hung a sign around his neck that read "King of the Jews." Sound familiar?

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew. Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

I can make a circumstantial case for Matthew and Mark having been written between 132 and 135 AD, but there is no actual reference to them from that time. Whether Luke/Acts was a source for Marcion (excommunicated in 144AD), or whether Marcion was a source for Luke/Acts has never been clearly demonstrated. One can argue forever whether Justin ("Second Apology"; c. 152 AD) quoted from the gospels or whether the gospel writers quoted Justin, but I note that Justin's sources weren't the modern gospels - Justin tells of the Jordan catching fire as Jesus emerges from it after being baptized. That story didn't come from the modern versions.

One can also trace the evolution of Jesus' divinity by comparing the dates of ancient writings: in earlier ones there is no mention of his divinity, but as time passes, stories of his divinity get added.

All things considered, basing the Jesus stories in part on Augustus Caesar fits right into the way things were done in those days. I agree that there is no solid evidence that this was done, but then again, there is no solid evidence that this wasn't done.

Doug

It's possible that a form of apotheosis occured to some extent, but the development of the Christ concept owes more to neoplatonism, than it does to Caesar. The progressive philosophical atmosphere at the time demanded certain prerequisites were met. It was its inclusive nature that made early christianity more successful than its many competitors. So its more than just promoting a human to godhood through myths and legends, though this did occur: it answered an important metaphysical need within an unified framework.

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ideally I'd like the full context of the quote. I googled the text from Suetonius and the first links that popped up were pro-copycat videos saying "see, proof of Jesus myth". That always raises a red flag for me since a google search of this normally links to scholarly sites if there is actual basis for it in scholarship (eg, when I google the phrase "Isis-Meri" the first links are always to Horus = copycat Messiah for Jesus).

http://penelope.uchi...Vespasian*.html

Chapter 7

2 Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. 3 Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

^ Is this good enough?

But assuming the quote is contextually accurate, at least it's a million times better than the absurd parallels suggested like "Jesus had an affinity for the masses, Caesar had an affinity for the masses, therefore this is evidence Jesus copied from Caesar".

I was wrong for Jesus did not display affinity for the masses, or atleast when Gentiles were concerned when he was asked for help by a Greek born women.He shows favor for the people of Isreal saying "First let the children eat all they want", then calling others dogs "for it is not right to take the childrens bread, and toss it to their dogs."Then when the Greek women shown faith (putting it lightly) he helped her then "Yes my Lord she replied, but even the dogs under the table eat the childrens crumbs."

Mark 7:24-7:30 Matthew 15:21-15:28 (See both passage verses to see full context.)

I am not saying Jesus copied from Julius Caesar, but Jesus is a later literary invention that is drawn from Greek, Roman, and Jewish ideologies.Luke 14:26 is definitely not Julius Caesar, but the Jesus myth of the Gospels do borrow elements of Julius, and Augustus Caesar.

I was simply pointing out the futility in constantly posting a massive Wall of Text (link). Those who are passionate about a conspiracy topic often employ the tactic because they feel that anyone who reads it must agree with the (in their mind) obviousness of the information. Unfortunately what actually happens is that people go cross-eyed and simply skim the material (or else skip the post altogether). Especially when it's repeated over and over through several threads.

This thread is not for the Theists that would run to an apologist video that tells them what they want to hear.Is not for the Atheist that will snub their nose at things unless it's stamped with "peer reviewed", or a work by their favorite celebrity.Is not for those willing to except any connection without checking facts, or glued to one angle.This thread are for those that will put the hypothesis behind it as a maybe, willing to research further, and realise there is many factors involved knowing the full nature at what's at stake.

You should do actual research instead of trying to stifle me with weak arguments.You put on a shell of progressiveness, but I see it cracking.

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era? I will admit I am wrong, and I will no longer discuss my idea on UM.

Do not show me examples centuries later that are in, or around churches.

This example is too late, and does not say much; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

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post-142153-0-04670200-1383339815_thumb.

post-142153-0-66876400-1383339836_thumb.

post-142153-0-36519000-1383339847_thumb.

post-142153-0-91694900-1383339868_thumb.

post-142153-0-82800700-1383339886_thumb.

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Hi P.A.

Not the Seotonius quote,But concerning The Letter to Servanius:

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. [The letter continues on to non-religious matters.]

From the Historia Augusta.Roughly dated to the 4th century http://en.wikipedia....ki/Talk:Serapis

Glanwill W. Bowersock, in a proceeding volume of the Genevan conference on the Historiae Augusae gives a scholastic survey of the dating of the texts. He writes:

“The presence of fiction in the
Historia
Augusta
is by now an established fact. The mischievous author of this work pretended, as we all know, to be writing historical biographies; but this pretense, though compelling the inclusion of genuine historical material, imposed no perceptible limits on his wit and invention.”

Günter Stemberger (PhD Jewish studies, Innsbruck and Göttingen), commenting on the Serapis letter confirms, “We should hardly assume the existence of an actual event on which these remarks were based.”

For more info

Hope it helps
:tu:

Awesome.I did not know that Hadrian's letter to Servianus was part of the collection called "Augustan History", and that it's authenticity is in dispute.However Chirist Greek for Kristos (anointed, or wetted with oil) is not exclusive to Jesus Christ, and there were a multitude of cults going back to antiquity.

I know P.A. is limited by phone bandwith, but you might be interested in the challenge I offered him for it's open to anybody.

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http://penelope.uchi...Vespasian*.html

Chapter 7

2 Vespasian as yet lacked prestige and a certain divinity, so to speak, since he was an unexpected and still new-made emperor; but these also were given him. A man of the people who was blind, and another who was lame, came to him together as he sat on the tribunal, begging for the help for their disorders which Serapis had promised in a dream; for the god declared that Vespasian would restore the eyes, if he would spit upon them, and give strength to the leg, if he would deign to touch it with his heel. 3 Though he had hardly any faith that this could possibly succeed, and therefore shrank even from making the attempt, he was at last prevailed upon by his friends and tried both things in public before a large crowd; and with success. At this same time, by the direction of certain soothsayers, some vases of antique workmanship were dug up in a consecrated spot at Tegea in Arcadia and on them was an image very like Vespasian.

^ Is this good enough?

Wait, I just checked the date - 150 AD, or near enough. You've repeatedly argued the gospel dates as 65-100 AD, why does this source written 50+ years later deserve greater significance than a text written decades earlier.
was wrong for Jesus did not display affinity for the masses, or atleast when Gentiles were concerned when he was asked for help by a Greek born women.He shows favor for the people of Isreal saying "First let the children eat all they want", then calling others dogs "for it is not right to take the childrens bread, and toss it to their dogs."Then when the Greek women shown faith (putting it lightly) he helped her then "Yes my Lord she replied, but even the dogs under the table eat the childrens crumbs."

Mark 7:24-7:30 Matthew 15:21-15:28 (See both passage verses to see full context.)

I am not saying Jesus copied from Julius Caesar, but Jesus is a later literary invention that is drawn from Greek, Roman, and Jewish ideologies.Luke 14:26 is definitely not Julius Caesar, but the Jesus myth of the Gospels do borrow elements of Julius, and Augustus Caesar.

Then it appears the significance of this passage went over your head - Jesus was not saying Gentiles were "dogs".

But as an aside, you stated once before that both Jesus and Caesar had an affinity for the masses and therefore shows proof of collusion. Shouldn't the reverse be equally true? If Jesus did NOT display similar signs here, it therefore proves that Jesus was not a copycat.

Unless you want to move the goal posts!

This thread is not for the Theists that would run to an apologist video that tells them what they want to hear.Is not for the Atheist that will snub their nose at things unless it's stamped with "peer reviewed", or a work by their favorite celebrity.Is not for those willing to except any connection without checking facts, or glued to one angle.This thread are for those that will put the hypothesis behind it as a maybe, willing to research further, and realise there is many factors involved knowing the full nature at what's at stake.

You should do actual research instead of trying to stifle me with weak arguments.You put on a shell of progressiveness, but I see it cracking.

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era? I will admit I am wrong, and I will no longer discuss my idea on UM.

Do not show me examples centuries later that are in, or around churches.

This example is too late, and does not say much; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito

Ah, so those who read your post and agree have searched the truth. Those who disagree are among the Theist/Atheist bundle you put forward before.

Not really that surprising...

Edited by Paranoid Android

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The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew. Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

This is a little misleading. Iraneaus' reference was the first to reference all 4 canonical gospels together in that context, but other references to single books are dated to much earlier periods.

Honest scholarship dates the first Gospel to 50-55AD. Some push it out to 75AD but it has been argued that the lack of any reference to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD indicates the writing predates that event... and this is reasonable speculation, imo.

The early dating of the Muratorian fragment indicates most of the NT was already worked out and settled before 200AD.

These efforts to connect the NT books to some Roman fiction are really half baked. The history connecting the gospel narratives to Greek Mystery cults dating to 500BC time frames is better supported. If anything the Roman similarities were copycat claims made after the fact (of the Life of Jesus).

Edited by Labyrinthus

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