A Question About Jesus Dying For The People

[_Only]

I'll preface with the info that I am not here to create any debate. There are plenty of those threads (pretty much every other one) in this section. While I have problems with aspects of Christianity, I personally believe that there is something to all religions more than the usual non-religious views that they are all dirty tricks by people to control others. My lack of intentions being understood, I just had a question about what I consider a cornerstone of Christian faith.

I admit that this is something I have never known, even though I was raised as a kid in Christianity (though, like most children, didn't care much to pay attention to many important details), and have thought about a few times recently. It is itching my mind a bit, and I am hoping there is a somewhat clear answer that can scratch this itch. I apologize and am already pre-embarrassed if my question is well known.

This one is short and sweet. According to Christianity, God gave his son to die for our sins, saving us. This happened; he died on the cross, taking our potential punishment away onto himself. So the question that is bothering me is how him dying with the intent of saving us worked exactly. I guess the clearest I can word my question is what exactly made him dying save the rest of mankind?

And if possible, a second question if anyone could answer, what form of punishment did he save us all from?

[+Link of Hyrule]

In Christianity, we believe that the cause of death is sin. Sure, there are biological reasons why we die, but the reason is that we have broken our relationship with God and therefore are subject to death (Romans 3, for example, tells us that the wages of sin is death). When Jesus died on the Cross, we Christians believe he did so without ever having sinned. He was never under the penalty of death, so when he died he was not bound by death and thus rose again. Now for those who accept Jesus and follow his teachings, we believe that Jesus paid our penalty, so when we come before Judgement God will look at us and instead of seeing our sins he in fact sees that Jesus paid that penalty already.

Only Jesus could do this, because he was the only person who resisted sin. That was because he was also God (not half-god/half-man, but fully God and fully man), thus he became the perfect mediator who could do this.

I'm sure there are issues to discuss that are raised by this response, so I'll happily expand or clarify any point. But in the spirit of the thread I'll ignore any attempt to debate my beliefs. This section of the boards is technically supposed to be for that type of discussion anyway (but we've unfortunately been a bit lax in that regard, including me - I'm not blameless, unfortunately).

[libstaK]

Personally, I've always believed it is about forgiveness - his words on the cross were "forgive them, for they know not what they do". By allowing the world to do what it will in it's ignorance and then forgiving the transgression he supplicated on behalf of the ignorant to God to forgive us. I am also mindful of the Lord's prayer which very specifically points to this "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

The greatest gift we can give to another is forgiveness and in doing so, we free ourselves from judgement of the selfsame transgression that we are just as capable of perpetrating on others in our own moments of ignorance.

[Frank Merton]

The message of Christianity seems to be that there exists a God who is so loving that he is willing to die himself for us, and carried this out in a way we can understand in history.

[danielost]

here it is from a mormon point of view. adam sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. justice must be fulfilled, thus when adam ate the fruit the sentence was death. according to the new testiment a bad tree cannot bare good fruit. thus all humans were condemned to death. christ having been born of a virgin, was not conceaved in sin thus being free of adams sin. as has been stated he lived sin free. when he asked god to remove the cup from his lips is when he took the sins of the world on himself. when he died on the cross this allowed mercy into the design.

[Sojo]

Another way of seeing it is:

We all have a multitude of experiences, some good, some bad. When it comes to things such as experiencing guilt, shame, and spiritual torment for the condemnation of sin, there would be a greatest level of experiencing such anquish to the nth degree. As i see it, Jesus Christ is THE one who, being one with the Father, possessed the love and faith to voluntarily experience this degree of torment and condemnation on behalf of all, so that this knowledge is part of God's omniscience, and also that it would not have to be experienced by others, if they have the humility to acknowledge they have committed sinful acts, are worthy of punishment, and have the faith that Christ did indeed experience the maximum torment and condemnation for sin on behalf of all others, and are willing to ask for forgiveness on that basis.

I am Christian in that respect, however I'm not necessarily the typical Christian since I also believe in reincarnation and karma. No one is forced to believe the above, and if anyone chooses not to, that's all fine and good, and they will continue to live (multiple lives if necessary) and learn the lessons of treating others the way they would want to be treated. But that's a whole different discussion.

[danielost]

Karma and sin and good are all the samething.

I am starting to believe in reinarnation for the other life forms, not for humans. They live in innocence. Thus they can live again and again with no ill to them.

[Omnaka]

Hi danielost, God said, believe in me and have Eternal life. Do you think eternal means once only?

[_Only]

Thanks for the answers, which brought back things I had forgotten. I also don't feel that bad, because it is starting to look like even the answer for this is like so many other things in religious texts: open for the reader to give personal meaning to.

[danielost]

Hi danielost, God said, believe in me and have Eternal life. Do you think eternal means once only?

Yes, we only have one life, one body. The one life starts at birth and never stops. Although, we take a break from it for a little while. We call this break, death. Afte christ returns we come back off of the break and live forever. Life requires both matter and life energy. Which I think is a form of knowledge.

[hellig heilige]

like so many other things in religious texts: open for the reader to give personal meaning to.

That's how the Jesus movement started. It's been manipulated by powerful people ever after........................... Now we don't know the true story of the deities behind this religion because there are stories floating around. I'm following this thread about truth. It's a good read....................... http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=256869&st=30#entry4963562

[_Only]

That's how the Jesus movement started. It's been manipulated by powerful people ever after........................... Now we don't know the true story of the deities behind this religion because there are stories floating around. I'm following this thread about truth. It's a good read....................... http://www.unexplain...30#entry4963562

Well, that is quite the provocative title.

[Davros of Skaro]

To put it bluntly, to live forever in God's kingdom one must be free from sin.Jews would make yearly animal sacrifices, and burnt offerings to God to amend for their sins.Jesus is the ultimate blood sacrifice, so to believe in him, and to repent for your sins, one can live with God.

Remember that the ancient peoples saw air/breath, and blood as life giving, because without it one dies.So sacrifices has symbolic spiritual meanings to people, and still to this day.

[Frank Merton]

One becomes free from "sin" first by not "sinning." Of course one may have "sinned" and not been aware of it, or may have done something innocuous that one fears may be a "sin." Finally, of course, one may have done something that harms others out of selfishness. For these we have a feeling of guilt and need to lift the guilt somehow, and the easiest way is to be forgiven.

It would be nice if it were that simple, but I dare say these methods of confession or sacrifice are just magic that may make you feel better but have no genuine effect, and don't undo any genuinely bad karma one has earned. Do something evil and you are stuck with it. All you can do is to try to undo the harm you did, try to do good things to help offset it, and if that is not possible then get on with things and not do it again. (Doing good to try to offset harms is not really effective -- things are more complicated than that -- but it never hurts to do good anyway.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Frank Merton

[_Only]

Do something evil and you are stuck with it. All you can do is to try to undo the harm you did, try to do good things to help offset it, and if that is not possible then get on with things and not do it again. (Doing good to try to offset harms is not really effective -- things are more complicated than that -- but it never hurts to do good anyway.

This is a problem I have with Christianity, as it emphasizes sin, and seems to constantly make a person feel guilt and shame for being human.

There's a a very important aspect of 'sin' that I don't see paid attention to: doing wrong and seeing/feeling the effects, allows you to learn from it. You may do something bad to someone, and saw how it made them feel. If you learn what it did to them, and it hit you in the right way, you will likely think every other time a similar occasion arises, and take the situation differently. You learned form your sin. I think this is far more important than wishing someone to make it go away.

I just think that if we spend less time feeling dirty and wrong, we free ourselves to learn from our mistakes. I think it was in the Four Agreements where the author said that we should really only be paid one punishment for our mistakes; and that is the effect done. But instead, we have learned to punish ourselves every time we think of it, by making ourselves wrong and shamed. This is uneccesary and not helpful, in my opinion.

I guess if I was a pastor teaching kids, and was given free will to twist the Bible the way I wanted, I would let them know that Jesus died for your sins, so don't punish yourself over and over about it in your mind. Someone took that for you. Just learn from it, because you have a chance now to walk away and take that sin as a learning experience. Don't waste that chance.

[danielost]

The message of Christianity seems to be that there exists a God who is so loving that he is willing to die himself for us, and carried this out in a way we can understand in history.

Its more like the king sarificing his virgin daughter to the dragon to sae the kingdom.

[danielost]

As to the op's last question. Christ saved us from a sspiritual death. Ie being cut off from god forever.

[+Link of Hyrule]

This is a problem I have with Christianity, as it emphasizes sin, and seems to constantly make a person feel guilt and shame for being human.

There's a a very important aspect of 'sin' that I don't see paid attention to: doing wrong and seeing/feeling the effects, allows you to learn from it. You may do something bad to someone, and saw how it made them feel. If you learn what it did to them, and it hit you in the right way, you will likely think every other time a similar occasion arises, and take the situation differently. You learned form your sin. I think this is far more important than wishing someone to make it go away.

I just think that if we spend less time feeling dirty and wrong, we free ourselves to learn from our mistakes. I think it was in the Four Agreements where the author said that we should really only be paid one punishment for our mistakes; and that is the effect done. But instead, we have learned to punish ourselves every time we think of it, by making ourselves wrong and shamed. This is uneccesary and not helpful, in my opinion.

I guess if I was a pastor teaching kids, and was given free will to twist the Bible the way I wanted, I would let them know that Jesus died for your sins, so don't punish yourself over and over about it in your mind. Someone took that for you. Just learn from it, because you have a chance now to walk away and take that sin as a learning experience. Don't waste that chance.

I suppose some Christians can corrupt sin to an ultimate and total guilt trip where one feels shame at being so utterly bad and continuously need to be forgiven, but I would argue that's a total perversion of what sin is. In my life, for example, I know I'm not perfect. I'll seek forgiveness for wrongs I've done, but I don't feel continued shame for I know that ultimately God has taken away my sin. What I'm left with is praise of God while attempting to live for him.

In short, your final paragraph pretty much sums up how I'd teach sin to kids if I needed to. The rest of your post that deals with shame and self guilt is unrecognisable to anything I believe about God and sin.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[docyabut2]

As a Christan my experiences on going to so many Christan churchs ,All I heard of was of how Jesus died for us. Then the peachers would flip back and forth through the Bible,I heard more about what every body else and Paul had to say then what Jesus had to say, so my question was why did Jesus live for us and what did he want us to know, so I read Jesus words and now I understand in my own way, even of Paul who killed many Christans before he turn to Christ.

Edited November 6, 2013 by docyabut2

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

This is a problem I have with Christianity, as it emphasizes sin

Hi _Only,

Jesus Christ or not, Isaiah prophesized a future Savior: "For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." God doesn't break His promise. So, if you believe in the Abrahamic God, knowing this future "reality" is already being a part of that salvation. To really accept God in your heart, however, entails a great deal of responsibilty, and I feel you know that.

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever." Psalm 23:6

Peace.

[Frank Merton]

Hi _Only,

Jesus Christ or not, Isaiah prophesized a future Savior: "For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." God doesn't break His promise. So, if you believe in the Abrahamic God, knowing this future "reality" is already being a part of that salvation. To really accept God in your heart, however, entails a great deal of responsibilty, and I feel you know that.

"Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever." Psalm 23:6

Peace.

If you would do a little study I think you wold find that Isaiah's "prophesy" had something else in mind entirely and the Christians misappropriated his words.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

If you read my post carefully, you would have realized that I wasn't talking about Christianity. I should know about Isaiah... I suppose you haven't been following my recent posts.

Edited November 6, 2013 by No-thingBornPassion

[docyabut2]

Just read Jesus words.You will understand.

[Arbenol]

This should clear things up.

Makes perfect sense!

[docyabut2]

This should clear things up.

Makes perfect sense!

not right Jesus was a comfort to all of this:)