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Ben Masada

Things God Did Not Create

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Things God Did Not Create

Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things.

Good luck!

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God created sin, he sent the Devil to Hell, therefore a sin, he is bad

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God created sin, he sent the Devil to Hell, therefore a sin, he is bad

I think the history of "Satan" or whatever you want to call him is rather more complex than that, originally Satan was a quite differerent matter since he was one of God's loyal second in commands who got over-ambitious and tried to revolt, and so frankly asked to be expelled. Which I suppose might be a parable for human free will and Sin and so on.

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*snip*

Apologies. Posted in wrong place.

Edited by Eldorado
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Hi Ben, since you're interested in ontological and epistemological questions, I thought I would throw this question out there. Did God create natural evil? By that I mean that category of sources of harm, suffering and death such as; earthquakes, drought, cancer, carnivores or the ebola virus?

If so, how is this justified? How does this square with an all-loving God?

Thanks

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God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

God didn't create anything then.
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God created sin, he sent the Devil to Hell, therefore a sin, he is bad.

Yes, a sin is bad because it is a transgression of the Law but there is no such a thing as Devil as a real being. Devil is only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. With regards to hell, it does not exist either, unless one means the grave. That's the real translation of hell: The grave.

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Hi Ben, since you're interested in ontological and epistemological questions, I thought I would throw this question out there. Did God create natural evil? By that I mean that category of sources of harm, suffering and death such as; earthquakes, drought, cancer, carnivores or the ebola virus?

If so, how is this justified? How does this square with an all-loving God? Thanks

No, God did not create natural evil. Natural events of Nature are not evil. We tend to think so only when there are casualties. Therefore, it becomes a creation of man for being found on the wrong place at the wrong time. Even in the case of cancer it is the result either of a wrong style of life or unprotected exposure to radiation.

Edited by Ben Masada
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Ah, so God didn't have anything to do with the creation of stars and galaxies and the Earth, that is just a byproduct of creating matter. If we discover abiogenesis, then God didn't even create life. You're doing a great job of demonstrating how God is not really necessary to explain much about our universe. I agree.

If you assume that I am doing a good job at explaining that God did not exist, who gave origin to the universe if it could not have caused itself to exist? As you know the main reason for the theory of the BB in 1922 was to confirm the Biblical teaching that the Universe did have a beginning. What or Who caused the universe to begin if according to Logic it could not have caused itself to begin?

The stars and galaxies and the Earth are composed of matter. Since it has been proved as a fact of everyday life that matter has a beginning and an end, and that matter could not have caused itself to begin don't you see the obviousness for the Primal Cause? Now with regards to abiogenesis, let us wait until it is discovered and then I'll ask you who caused it to exist. If God did not create life who has caused living beings to live?

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God didn't create anything then.

God created the universe which is composed of matter. The rest is the by-product of God's work.

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So, as so often happens in matters of discussing theism, we bump into theodicy again. Why did God create reality in such a way that natural evil would be a component thereof?

Often this same logical conundrum is expressed in the pithy question: "If God is omnipotent, can God creat a rock so heavy that God can't lift it?"

When we apply the same line of query to natural evil. it could take a form such as this: "If God is all good and all powerful and all-seeing, why did God create a world with a hydrospheric system such that, predictably and frequently, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or more people would be wiped out by storms, floods and other water-related disasters?"

My opinion is that there is no satisfactory answer to such questions. Historically speaking, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, when the prophets and sages and visionaries grappled with the issue, they developed increasingly other- or next-worldly answers: Final judgment or consummation of creation; expectation of another world yet to come; completion or fulfillment of creation in a final reality called "resurrection."

So people who have been raised in and/or chosen "faith" as an appropriate way of comprehending reality such as it is. These are important concerns to take to heart and ponder (along with Job--a good read), but pragmatic, scientific or ironclad answers will continue to elude us all. Only by faith do humans, sometimes, even decide to take a next step of any kind in life.

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If you assume that I am doing a good job at explaining that God did not exist, who gave origin to the universe if it could not have caused itself to exist?

I don't know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. You dodge this point every single time by equivocating on the word 'universe': just because our universe had a beginning does not mean that there was nothing 'before' our universe existed. You just want to indulge in special pleading and endow your god with the quality of having existed forever but only your god, you are unwilling for some reason to allow some type of universe/universes/realm outside of our universe to have always existed.

As you know the main reason for the theory of the BB in 1922 was to confirm the Biblical teaching that the Universe did have a beginning. What or Who caused the universe to begin if according to Logic it could not have caused itself to begin?

I don't know, neither do you. You were trying to make some vague argument about if we don't know then we should go with 'probability' and believe that God did. I'm waiting for how you computed your probability there.

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God created the universe which is composed of matter. The rest is the by-product of God's work.

So you've said. Is this a book you're writing? Because you're definitely making it up.
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So, as so often happens in matters of discussing theism, we bump into theodicy again. Why did God create reality in such a way that natural evil would be a component thereof?

Often this same logical conundrum is expressed in the pithy question: "If God is omnipotent, can God creat a rock so heavy that God can't lift it?"

When we apply the same line of query to natural evil. it could take a form such as this: "If God is all good and all powerful and all-seeing, why did God create a world with a hydrospheric system such that, predictably and frequently, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or more people would be wiped out by storms, floods and other water-related disasters?"

My opinion is that there is no satisfactory answer to such questions. Historically speaking, in the Judeo-Christian tradition, when the prophets and sages and visionaries grappled with the issue, they developed increasingly other- or next-worldly answers: Final judgment or consummation of creation; expectation of another world yet to come; completion or fulfillment of creation in a final reality called "resurrection."

So people who have been raised in and/or chosen "faith" as an appropriate way of comprehending reality such as it is. These are important concerns to take to heart and ponder (along with Job--a good read), but pragmatic, scientific or ironclad answers will continue to elude us all. Only by faith do humans, sometimes, even decide to take a next step of any kind in life.

Evil does not exist. It is made every time man ill-uses his Freewill to cause pain. And natural events are not evil. What makes us think of evil in nature is when human casualties happen as a result of them. Therefore, God has nothing to do with them but man himself is to blame for being on the wrong place at the wrong time.

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I don't know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. You dodge this point every single time by equivocating on the word 'universe': just because our universe had a beginning does not mean that there was nothing 'before' our universe existed. You just want to indulge in special pleading and endow your god with the quality of having existed forever but only your god, you are unwilling for some reason to allow some type of universe/universes/realm outside of our universe to have always existed.

I don't know, neither do you. You were trying to make some vague argument about if we don't know then we should go with 'probability' and believe that God did. I'm waiting for how you computed your probability there.

Oh! So you do not know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. I do and it is not that complicate to figure. The universe could not have caused itself to exist because it needed to exist to cause itself to exist; and if it existed, it did not have to cause itself to exist because it already existed. See how simple Logic can make things intelligible? Since the last scientific discovery of the BB in 1922 has turned almost 100% of the scientific world of Cosmology to adopt it as the closest step ever to the truth, The universe did have a beginning which renders the Primal Cause obvious. Not to atheists though because usually pride speaks louder than commonsense.

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So you've said. Is this a book you're writing? Because you're definitely making it up.

No, the problem is that atheists don't have what it takes to apply Logic to understand the Truth.

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Evil does not exist. It is made every time man ill-uses his Freewill to cause pain. And natural events are not evil. What makes us think of evil in nature is when human casualties happen as a result of them. Therefore, God has nothing to do with them but man himself is to blame for being on the wrong place at the wrong time.

I would have to slightly disagree with your first statement. Evil does exist as a concept, the antithesis of good. Evil exists as a descriptor of the quality of certain actions taken. Evil does not exist as a free-floating entity. I won't make the next statement past that, as I know that you and I would disagree about it.

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Isaiah 45:6-9 tells that god did create evil king james version ...also the word sin taken back to the prime root of the word..translates as missing the mark ie ..not understanding what is going on inside yourself but allowing others to tell you how to think and feel

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Things God Did Not Create

Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things.

Good luck!

Matter IS energy, just a condensed form of energy. E=mc^2 shows that matter and energy are at the most basic level, one and the same.

I agree about time.

I disagree with your premise though. If God created man, knowing man would sin, he thus created sin. That is like saying that if you hand a loaded gun to a 2 year old child and he shoots someone, that it is not your responsibility, but the responsibility of the 2 year old. That is false, it IS your responsibility just as the creation of sin IS on God's 'hands' (if there is a creator God). He (her?) is the one who handed the loaded gun (free will?) to mankind full well knowing what the consequences of doing so would be.

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Oh! So you do not know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. I do and it is not that complicate to figure. The universe could not have caused itself to exist because it needed to exist to cause itself to exist; and if it existed, it did not have to cause itself to exist because it already existed. See how simple Logic can make things intelligible? Since the last scientific discovery of the BB in 1922 has turned almost 100% of the scientific world of Cosmology to adopt it as the closest step ever to the truth, The universe did have a beginning which renders the Primal Cause obvious. Not to atheists though because usually pride speaks louder than commonsense.

You obviously know nothing about what you are talking about. We do not KNOW how the singularity that led to the big bang came to be, we just do not know. It could be that there are multiple universes that exist in some higher dimensional frame of reference where if we were able to observe that reference frame- the 'cause' for our universe might be plainly clear. However, our frame of reference is limited to our universe, so we will probably never know if a higher dimensional environment even exists. In OUR universe we can observe that things have cause-effect relationships, so therefore it is logical to assume that everything in our universe is subject to causality. However when thinking about outside the universe we do not know if the same physics is applied. It may be a totally different environment, it may be that effects precede causes, it may be that things work in a way we cannot even begin to imagine. The point is that we do not know, and since we do not know, your logic is invalid. The 'primal cause' may not be necessary, God may or may not exist. Those are the facts, whatever you believe, understand it is belief, and that the facts as we know them today really do not support or invalidate your belief, nor might they ever.

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Oh! So you do not know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. I do and it is not that complicate to figure. The universe could not have caused itself to exist because it needed to exist to cause itself to exist; and if it existed, it did not have to cause itself to exist because it already existed. See how simple Logic can make things intelligible?

Great, now you just need to demonstrate why your understanding of logic applies outside of this universe, since you are presuming there is something outside of this universe; good luck with that. The reason I don't know is that I don't even know what 'caused itself to exist' can really mean, if it were true it would be incomprehensible to me. It's complicated by the fact also that you are already assuming one thing that didn't need a cause, God, which I also can't really comprehend that fully.

Since the last scientific discovery of the BB in 1922 has turned almost 100% of the scientific world of Cosmology to adopt it as the closest step ever to the truth, The universe did have a beginning which renders the Primal Cause obvious. Not to atheists though because usually pride speaks louder than commonsense.

No, not 'the universe' as you are defining it, which is 'everything that exists except God'; cosmology deals with this universe only currently. But let's go with your assumption, yes, this universe did have a beginning; that does not 'render the Primal Cause obvious', you are equivocating here. If the universe did have a beginning than it had a cause, that's it; not a 'Primal Cause' that you are trying to sneak in as a synonym for your god. Or demonstrate why God must have been that cause and why not some other thing that we similarly don't have any evidence for.

Let's try it this way. We agree that this universe exists, that's a given. You also want to presume that a god exists, and most importantly, want to presume that those are the only two things that exist. There is a lot of theoretical discussion about a multiverse existing among physicists/cosmologists that I find hard to believe you are not aware of. So, as long as you are going to go and presume that your god exists and is the cause of this universe, you have no reason to non-hypocritically not allow for the presumption that a multiverse exists or that something that is not an entity and not intelligent and not personal created the universe instead. If you want to presume your god has existed forever, then you'll need to explain why presuming that something else that is not a god but that can cause universes to be created hasn't instead existed forever. Without special pleading.

As far as your psychoanalysis concerning the pride of atheists, Dr Freud, keep your day job.

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Things God Did Not Create

Many people think that because God is the Supreme Creator of the Universe, He must have created all things. Among these peoples, we find especially those who have never read about anything in the realm of Physics. Believe me, I am not talking about Atheism, as I am personally a Theist myself, although not of the class of Theists who take everything literally in their interpretation of the Scriptures.

I felt about writing this thread when I was asked if God created sin. No, He did not; and here is the method or formula to identify what God has created and what He has not created. First, we must define what we want to know if God created it or not. Then, we must figure if the thing is or not a by-product of God's creation. What do I mean by a by-product of God's creation? Anything that comes about as a result of anything God has created. It was not created by God.

Let us start with sin, which was the reason for this thread. By definition, sin is the transgression of God's Law by man. Therefore, something between man and the Law. Nothing to do with God. Man creates sin, not God. And sin comes about as a result of man's ill-use of his freewill. Obviously, as man creates sin, with man is the power to end the sin he has created.

Let me bring to your attention samples of three other things God did not create because they constitute a by-product or an accident of matter. Energy, time and space. Oh yes, it's natural to get startled at this revelation.

God did not create energy. Energy is an accident of matter. A by-product of God's creation. How about time? This is an accident of motion. Time comes about as matter moves. There is no time in inertia. And for space, what is space? This is the limited distance between matter and matter. Therefore, an accident of matter at a certain distance from each other.

Now, that we know that not everything God created, you have got a little wiser to use the method on a few of other things.

Good luck!

I agree that god did not create sin, but are you saying time space and energy existed before god created matter, or thatt hey are acidental by products of is deliberate creation of matter?

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No, the problem is that atheists don't have what it takes to apply Logic to understand the Truth.

Atheists and theists use the same logic, but because they have different, belief based starting points, the same logic wil inevitably take them to differnt conclusions. That is the nature of logic, and one of its limitations..
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Matter IS energy, just a condensed form of energy. E=mc^2 shows that matter and energy are at the most basic level, one and the same.

I agree about time.

I disagree with your premise though. If God created man, knowing man would sin, he thus created sin. That is like saying that if you hand a loaded gun to a 2 year old child and he shoots someone, that it is not your responsibility, but the responsibility of the 2 year old. That is false, it IS your responsibility just as the creation of sin IS on God's 'hands' (if there is a creator God). He (her?) is the one who handed the loaded gun (free will?) to mankind full well knowing what the consequences of doing so would be.

Ah but did god know man would chose to sin? In christian theology there is considerable doubt about this. ANd, if men have free will then no outcome is predetermined along a linear time line, and so god could NOT KNOW for sure how a free willed entity might choose.

" Sin" is one potential consequence of free will, but so are hope, beaut,y love, growth, empathy, compassion, guilt, and so on.

When you create a free willed entity you take your chances on how they will turn out. But yuo are NOT responsible for its "sins", any more than you can take credit for its achievements.

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