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Antilles

50th Anniversary of JFK Assassination

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I know there are a few long threads on here already about JFK so if a mod wants to attach this to an existing thread it's OK.

But given in just over 2 weeks time it will be 50 years since JFK was murdered, I think it's timely to discuss his death again and the theories around that moment of time on November 22.

I'm interested in any reasonable theories. I'll state straight up that I believe JFK was the victim of a conspiracy and that there were 2 shooters at Dealey Plaza. I watched a show last week based on Howard Donahue's theory of the murder. He authored Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK. His major argument is that there were 2 bullets from 2 different shooters.

The bullet that killed JFK was inconsistent with the ammo Oswald would have used in the Carcano. He argues that JFK was killed by a frangible bullet that would have exploded on impact. The Carcano would have been a through and through shot.

I can't argue with him on these points because I believe him.

He makes the very good point that Oswald used 3 bullets because one of them was a chamber plug. So, Oswald only made 2 shots and they weren't the kill shot.

Where I disagree with him is his shooter, agent George Hickey in the followup car. Basically Donahue believes Hickey accidentally shot JFK with the AR15 assault rifle he was carrying.

Ideas anyone? Any reasonable theories you'd like to add?

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I watched the same show - JFK: The Smoking Gun. Personally I think it makes a very compelling case, addresses all the relevant evidence without falling into the conspiracy theory trap, aside from exposing a coverup of a deadly mistake by an inexperienced Secret Service agent (Hickey) who shouldn't have been where he was that day in the first place.

Where I disagree with him is his shooter, agent George Hickey in the followup car. Basically Donahue believes Hickey accidentally shot JFK with the AR15 assault rifle he was carrying.

Why do you think this is not possible?

Cz

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Fifty years ago. My word.

I was in college in the States when it happened; in a French class in fact. The bells all over the campus began ringing and our teacher (a spry old Frenchwoman) went out to find out what was going on. She came back in with tearful eyes and said, "No more class today," and left.

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

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Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

Fair enough... I do as well... but, the show mentioned above, and the book "Mortal Error: The Shot That Killed Kennedy" that the bulk of that show's research is based on provide a very plausible explanation based upon the ballistics of the shots fired that day and the witness testimony that was overlooked or ignored by the Warren Commission.

Cz

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Fifty years ago. My word.

I was in college in the States when it happened; in a French class in fact.

Fifty years ago I was an egg.

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

I see no problem in discussing them - if there's something to them then the facts should be revealled.

Having said that, I'm satisfied with Oswald having been the sole shooter (although I agree with Posner's theory in contradiction to the Warren Commission, that Oswald fired three shots over about eight seconds, and was hit by the second and third bullets).

Edited by Peter B

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Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

Don't let me catch you commenting on anything that didn't happen this year then... ;)

The fact your memories of the event remain clear after all this time is clue enough that this will not be forgotten or discussed long after we have gone. IIRC doesn't 50 years also relate to a declassification timeline in the States?

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Fifty years ago I was an egg.

Well we all get older: pretty much at the same rate, in fact, so long as we stay out of wars and don't smoke.

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They are still arguing over the Lincoln assassination. In fact I've seen arguments that Jesus' crucifixion was a put-up job.

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I have put Donahue's theory out there for debate. There are many people who disagreed with his findings.

Agent Hickey sued St Martin's Press in 1995 but his lawsuit was rejected in 1997 because he had taken too long after the book was published to file his claim.

Both Donahue and Hickey are dead.

For a conspiracy you have to have at least 2 people. I believe there was another shooter besides Oswald. I do not think the shooter was behind the motorcade. Behind the grassy knoll, behind the picket fence, in front of the railway yard, maybe. On top of the overpass, maybe.

List of suspects is long. CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cuban ex pats, nutters.

Add your own or discount them. Do you have a theory as to who killed JFK?

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In fact I've seen arguments that Jesus' crucifixion was a put-up job.

Of course it was a put up, he walked into an inn with a bag of nails and said 'could you put me up for the night'...

Sorry :blush: Grabs coat and leaves quietly...

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So wait... first you say this in your opening post:

His major argument is that there were 2 bullets from 2 different shooters.

The bullet that killed JFK was inconsistent with the ammo Oswald would have used in the Carcano. He argues that JFK was killed by a frangible bullet that would have exploded on impact. The Carcano would have been a through and through shot.

I can't argue with him on these points because I believe him.

He makes the very good point that Oswald used 3 bullets because one of them was a chamber plug. So, Oswald only made 2 shots and they weren't the kill shot.

And now you completely contradict yourself by saying this:

For a conspiracy you have to have at least 2 people. I believe there was another shooter besides Oswald. I do not think the shooter was behind the motorcade. Behind the grassy knoll, behind the picket fence, in front of the railway yard, maybe. On top of the overpass, maybe.

List of suspects is long. CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cuban ex pats, nutters.

So that fact that:

-Donohue's expert evaluation of the ballistics and bullet performance - which were based on the actual available evidence and provable, repeatable scientific research - conclusively show that the third shot - the one you already agree was not fired by Oswald and was of a different type of ammunition than Oswald used - could only have come from immediately behind JFK near to ground level

- statements from 11 witness -including 7 Secret Service agents - that were ignored by the Warren Commission put a a rifle in the hands of a Secret Service agent in the follow car immediately behind JFK's limo at the exact time of the shooting

- the Secret Service admitted that there was an AR-15, a rifle that fires the same kind of frangible ammunition that you already agree was fired by the second shooter - in the follow car immediately behind JFK's limo,

- statements from as many as 10 witnesses at street level and from people in the motorcade behind the follow car (also ignored by the Warren Commission) tell of smelling gun powder / seeing smoke at street level

Are what.....? Lies because they paint a picture of a scenario that doesn't include your Grassy Knoll CIA, Mafia blah blah conspiracy fantasies...?

Cz

Edited by Czero 101

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I think I'm going to buy Ventura's new book on this.

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I think I'm going to buy Ventura's new book on this.

Does he have anyone in mind as a top suspect?

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Does he have anyone in mind as a top suspect?

I haven't read the book yet.

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I think I'm going to buy Ventura's new book on this.

I'm going to buy that book soon. When I do, I'll post my review and the evidence he as on here. I read a sample on my Kindle, and I was extremely impressed by it. The first page, they immediately start out with Katzenbach Memo. Keep in mind this was sent out on MONDAY, Oswald was killed the day before on Sunday, and Kennedy had been shot on Friday......

On November 25 1963, the day of the Kennedy funeral, Assistant Attorney General Nicholas Katzenbach sent a memo to Bill Moyers of the new Johnson White House. He had begun writing it the day earlier, within hours after Oswald's death at the hands of Jack Ruby.

The second paragraph stated: "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."

Given that the authorities could not possibly by November 25 know these things to be true, and Katzenbach later admitted he knew very little at this stage, the memo is clearly advocating a political course irrespective of the truth of the assassination.

The motivation for this political course may be glimped in the succeeding paragraph: "Speculation about Oswald's motivation ought to be cut off, and we should have some basis for rebutting thought that this was a Communist conspiracy or (as the Iron Curtain press is saying) a right-wing conspiracy to blame it on the Communists. Unfortunately the facts on Oswald seem about too pat--too obvious (Marxist, Cuba, Russian wife, etc.). The Dallas police have put out statements on the Communist conspiracy theory, and it was they who were in charge when he was shot and thus silenced."

Katzenbach's memo advocated a public FBI report to satisfy this "objective," though he noted the possible need for "the appointment of a Presidential Commission of unimpeachable personnel to review and examine the evidence and announce its conclusions." He ended by advocating a quick public announcement to "head off speculation or Congressional hearings of the wrong sort."

Link: http://www.maryferre...Katzenbach_Memo

You can read the memo yourself in the link above.

For me, that sets off huge alarms.

I have read tons of books on the JFK Assassination including Crossfire, Destiny Betrayed, On the Trail of the Assassins, Dr Mary's Monkey, and Lee and Me, and my most recent book, Hit List, as well as, Dead Wrong, which touched on it briefly. I've watched too many documentaries and hours of witness statements, etc...My favorite documentary on the JFK Assassination is "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" which can be found on Youtube. It is really good.

I know there are a few long threads on here already about JFK so if a mod wants to attach this to an existing thread it's OK.

But given in just over 2 weeks time it will be 50 years since JFK was murdered, I think it's timely to discuss his death again and the theories around that moment of time on November 22.

I'm interested in any reasonable theories. I'll state straight up that I believe JFK was the victim of a conspiracy and that there were 2 shooters at Dealey Plaza. I watched a show last week based on Howard Donahue's theory of the murder. He authored Mortal Error: The Shot that Killed JFK. His major argument is that there were 2 bullets from 2 different shooters.

The bullet that killed JFK was inconsistent with the ammo Oswald would have used in the Carcano. He argues that JFK was killed by a frangible bullet that would have exploded on impact. The Carcano would have been a through and through shot.

I can't argue with him on these points because I believe him.

He makes the very good point that Oswald used 3 bullets because one of them was a chamber plug. So, Oswald only made 2 shots and they weren't the kill shot.

Where I disagree with him is his shooter, agent George Hickey in the followup car. Basically Donahue believes Hickey accidentally shot JFK with the AR15 assault rifle he was carrying.

Ideas anyone? Any reasonable theories you'd like to add?

I watched that as well, and I just don't buy it.

Oswald's nitrate tests were negative which means he didn't fire a shot that day...

Link: http://www.giljesus....raffin_test.htm

Also Kennedy was shot from the FRONT, not the back as the Zapruder film shows.....

Just my thoughts.....

Edited by Kowalski
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I have put Donahue's theory out there for debate. There are many people who disagreed with his findings.

Agent Hickey sued St Martin's Press in 1995 but his lawsuit was rejected in 1997 because he had taken too long after the book was published to file his claim.

Both Donahue and Hickey are dead.

For a conspiracy you have to have at least 2 people. I believe there was another shooter besides Oswald. I do not think the shooter was behind the motorcade. Behind the grassy knoll, behind the picket fence, in front of the railway yard, maybe. On top of the overpass, maybe.

List of suspects is long. CIA, FBI, Mafia, Cuban ex pats, nutters.

Add your own or discount them. Do you have a theory as to who killed JFK?

Have you seen this:

[media=]

[/media]

The ninth documentary in the series, entitled "The Guilty Men," directly implicates former U. S. President Lyndon B. Johnson (LBJ) and created an outcry among Johnson's surviving

associates

, including Johnson's widow, Lady Bird Johnson, journalist Bill Moyers, ex-President Jimmy Carter, (who like all US presidents has many skeletons in his closet but we won't go into that here). Jack Valenti (longtime president of the Motion Picture Association of America), and the last-living (at the time of the outcry) Warren Commission commissioner and ex-President Gerald R. Ford. They demanded the series never be aired again and of course the History Channel of course bowed to pressure and pulled the series.

The Wall street rag er Journal called it a "primitive piece of conspiracy-mongering" I would expect a propaganda rag like the Wall Street Journal to lower themselves to slander and name calling instead of backing up their straw man slanders with documentation and evidence.

And the chief executives of the three parent companies of A & E Networks, —Victor F. Ganzi of the Hearst Corporation, Michael D. Eisner of Disney, and Robert C. Wright of NBC and former United States President Gerald Ford. Have all slandered the documentary. And if you know anything about these characters is a huge surprise -- NOT!

Johnson was put in there by the powers that be, to create a war in Vietnam, and help insure the CIA grew to what it did under Reagan, and they continue their power until this day....

Edited by Kowalski

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Come on people Chime In Please ! Oswald didnt Shoot JFK Shot in the Front ? Have you not Read,Seen thought about it for the last 50 yrs enough to know that what happened that day was caught of not just Flim,but directly in the minds and eyes of a few thousand people ? :tu:

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My first post:

Some random thoughts and questions:

The Zapruder film has been "digitally enhanced" but it still gives me eye strain. Is that the best they can do?

Was Oswald a lefty? (not leftist) A right handed shooter would be at a disadvantage scrunched out of the right side of the window.

The Warren report believers have bent over backwards trying to prove that Oswald's bullet could have caused Kennedy's head to move back and to the left or how the same bullet could have caused the head to explode. Donahue's theory that it was a different type on bullet is compelling and by itself would necessitate a different shooter although I think his idea that Hicks fired the shot is implausible.

As for who was inside the conspiracy, the mob, LBJ, Castro, etc., we may never know for sure but it may be 'all of the above'.

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My first post:

Some random thoughts and questions:

The Zapruder film has been "digitally enhanced" but it still gives me eye strain. Is that the best they can do?

Was Oswald a lefty? (not leftist) A right handed shooter would be at a disadvantage scrunched out of the right side of the window.

The Warren report believers have bent over backwards trying to prove that Oswald's bullet could have caused Kennedy's head to move back and to the left or how the same bullet could have caused the head to explode. Donahue's theory that it was a different type on bullet is compelling and by itself would necessitate a different shooter although I think his idea that Hicks fired the shot is implausible.

As for who was inside the conspiracy, the mob, LBJ, Castro, etc., we may never know for sure but it may be 'all of the above'.

Welcome to the board.

The OP has so far ignored requests to explain why he doesn't believe Hickey could be the second shooter. Maybe you can explain why you think it is implausible...?

Cz

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Fifty years ago. My word.

I was in college in the States when it happened; in a French class in fact. The bells all over the campus began ringing and our teacher (a spry old Frenchwoman) went out to find out what was going on. She came back in with tearful eyes and said, "No more class today," and left.

Personally I find the conspiracy theories surrounding his death pointless and crass, especially at this late date.

Frank, when I heard that JFK was dead I crapped my pants (but, I was 3 months old).

As far as your second part, yeah. Too many theories with too little evidence and way too late.

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Welcome to the board.

The OP has so far ignored requests to explain why he doesn't believe Hickey could be the second shooter. Maybe you can explain why you think it is implausible...?

Cz

I would again go to the Zapruder film where Kennedy's head goes back and to the left. The 'explosion' occurred on the right/rear of the head and would have, if it had any propulsion power at all, pushed the head forward to the left. I also would rule out the probability of such a mishap. Could he have accidently discharged the gun? quite possibly. But directly at the president? Possibly, but very unlikely. I also think that according to sonic evidence and earwitnesses, no one seems to have reported hearing a shot coming from that direction in the motorcade nor did the other agents in the limo react as I think they instinctively would. So overall, I can't yet buy into that theory.

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I would again go to the Zapruder film where Kennedy's head goes back and to the left. The 'explosion' occurred on the right/rear of the head and would have, if it had any propulsion power at all, pushed the head forward to the left.

According to the forensic examination, the entrance wound was on the right rear of Kennedy's head, and the exit wound - the "explosion" - was on the upper-right portion of the skull (above and forward of the ear). Assuming a frangible bullet was used, as evidence suggests, hen the bullet shattered and burst through the skull, the resulting "explosion" of tissue and bullet fragments from the skull - which would still be following a forward-and-right trajectory - would certainly have resulted in a rearward-and-left movement of Kennedy's head. Remember also that with frangible bullets, they don't necessarily "explode" on impact. They leave a small entry wound and a MUCH larger exit wound, due to the bullet shattering inside the target.

Its not rocket science, but when you actually think about it, this is how rockets work - material is ejected in one direct at a high rate of speed / pressure causing a pushing force in the opposite direction. Given the high velocity of the bullet and the short distance from the bullet's entry to exit, there's simply not enough time to see the head being pushed forward by the bullet entry before it gets violently shoved back by the "explosive" exit.

I also would rule out the probability of such a mishap. Could he have accidently discharged the gun? quite possibly. But directly at the president? Possibly, but very unlikely.

Well, certainly it would have been a one in a million shot, I think that can definitely be agreed upon.

I also think that according to sonic evidence and earwitnesses, no one seems to have reported hearing a shot coming from that direction in the motorcade nor did the other agents in the limo react as I think they instinctively would.

But there were reports of people smelling burnt gun powder at street level, and coming from the direction of the follow car. There were at least 10 witnesses who reported it to the police when they were interviewed on the day, including people who were in the motorcade. Plus there were at least 11 eyewitnesses who saw "someone" in the follow car with a rifle, and 7 of them were Secret Service agents. One witness who was in motorcade behind the follow car said that he saw (presumably) Hickey standing up, looking back to where the forst shots came from then stumbling back and waving the rifle around seemingly randomly.

Unfortunately much of this evidence was either overlooked or ignored by the Warren commission - witnesses who had given statements on the day weren't called to testify, and those who did testify were seemingly ignored, even though their testimony did make it into the Commission's findings.

As to the other agents in the car, its possible that given how short a time frame we are talking about here - 8 seconds, probably less, between the first shot to the motorcade speeding away - that there just wasn't enough time for them to process everything that was happening - gunshots behind them, people panicking, President down, car speeding away, etc. and react before they were already away from the scene and en-route to the hospital.

So overall, I can't yet buy into that theory.

Fair enough. I'm not saying necessarily that the Donohue scenario IS what happened, or that it explains everything, but for me at least, it explains enough of the evidence to be a highly plausible explanation. As others have said, in all reality, we probably will never know precisely what happened that day...

At least you're willing to address the issue, so thanks for that :tu:

ETA...

If you didn't see the "JFK: The Smoking Gun" special, it is viewable on their website - http://www.sbs.com.au/thesmokinggun/ - and on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqg7CHEUJh0

Cz

Edited by Czero 101

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We will never know who did it. There is a video the driver looks like he did it.

What is the of ventures new book

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Don't know if anyone knew about this.....

Battle over Dealey Plaza

After 50 years of deceit and coverup, Dallas is getting ready for a big event on the 50thanniversary of JFK’s assassination. But one thing the establishment there wants most is that those who question the official story get pushed out of the limelight.

Link: http://whowhatwhy.com/2013/10/11/battle-over-dealey-plaza-presence-on-112213/

More information can be found here: http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2013/02/battle-of-dealey-plaza-copa-talking.html

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I've read this theory in several JFK Assassination books, and Jesse Ventura uses it in his new book as well...It makes the most sense to me. Enjoy the videos!

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