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danielost

what was the war in heaven.

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What was the war in heaven?

Before the earth was formed or the universe came into being, there was a war in heaven. Remember, everyone in heaven was spirtual exept for our father and mother(god). So no one could be killed.

So again what was the war in heaven. It was as debate between two concepts on how to get mankind to return to god.

The first one championed by lucifer was that he would force humans to do what is right. Let the glory be his, lucifer.---

The second on was championed by jesus. Was to let us have choose for ourselves. But, the glory would be god's.

God wasn't going t o give up his glory, so he choose plan two. Lucifer and his followers were kicked out of heaven onto the earth.

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Oh yeah, that's a good one.

I like the one where that little short dude with the furry feet finds that magic ring and has to bring it back to the place it was made.

Stories like that are great.

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In biblical terms I find it hard to justify the theology that there ever was a war in heaven at all. The primary basis for this teaching is Revelation, and I hesitate to use an apocalyptic text as the primary/sole basis for my theology.

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where did you get all this?

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Daniel can you please cite the passages in the Bible where all this is specifically mentioned?

Also - this is in the Spiritual Section of the UM Forums is it not? I don't recall this asking to debate wether God and the Devil are real, but rather it is implied that you might believe hence the title. Seriously, if you guys want to debate every topic to death and make fun of those who believe in God then take it to the Skeptics part of the site. Otherwise what is the point of having different sections if the boundaries aren't being enforced or respected?

Edited by Ever After
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Daniel can you please cite the passages in the Bible where all this is specifically mentioned?

Also - this is in the Spiritual Section of the UM Forums is it not? I don't recall this asking to debate wether God and the Devil are real, but rather it is implied that you might believe hence the title. Seriously, if you guys want to debate every topic to death and make fun of those who believe in God then take it to the Skeptics part of the site. Otherwise what is the point of having different sections if the boundaries aren't being enforced or respected?

Its OK, Ill allow it

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Was Google down?

The "war in heaven" is mentioned in the book of Revelation, chapter 12.

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on its heads. Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come the salvation and the power

and the kingdom of our God,

and the authority of his Messiah.

For the accuser of our brothers and sisters,

who accuses them before our God day and night,

has been hurled down.

They triumphed over him

by the blood of the Lamb

and by the word of their testimony;

they did not love their lives so much

as to shrink from death.

Therefore rejoice, you heavens

and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea,

because the devil has gone down to you!

He is filled with fury,

because he knows that his time is short.”

When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Jesus makes mention also--- in Luke 10-

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”

At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, “Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. For I tell you that many prophets and kings wanted to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”

Edited by Jack Skellington
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In biblical terms I find it hard to justify the theology that there ever was a war in heaven at all. The primary basis for this teaching is Revelation, and I hesitate to use an apocalyptic text as the primary/sole basis for my theology.

Apocalyptic passages are truly difficult, and are like looking through a glass darkly. Personal interpretations can definitely raise heretical (demonic?) teachings too.

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Everyone interpets thy bible for themselves, assuming they read it and don't relie on what others tell them.

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Also - this is in the Spiritual Section of the UM Forums is it not? I don't recall this asking to debate wether God and the Devil are real, but rather it is implied that you might believe hence the title. Seriously, if you guys want to debate every topic to death and make fun of those who believe in God then take it to the Skeptics part of the site. Otherwise what is the point of having different sections if the boundaries aren't being enforced or respected?

I believe title also says 'beliefs' right there in the Spiritual Section.

Whats the point of having discussions boards that people aren't free to discuss what they believe?

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The Spirituality, Religion and Beliefs board is primarily aimed at discussing general topics pertaining to religion and spirituality, for skeptic vs believer style discussion and debate on the nature of spirituality themed topics please visit the Spirituality vs Skepticism board.

I don't know what is confusing about that-- What do you believe about "the war in heaven" supervike?

Do you have anything of your own to add to the conversation?

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danielost,

So what you're saying is.. You have nothing to back up what you're saying? :huh:

Edit: 2Timothy 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Edited by Ogbin

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Hello Ogbin--- that's kind of a cheap shot, no?

Hardly the stuff of fables-- a war in heaven is mentioned in scripture. Christians teach that there was a "rebellion" in heaven... That Satan was the highest angel, that he became prideful and was cast out, taking a third of the servants of God with him.

danielost seems to be suggesting that at the heart of the conflict were two competing ideas regarding how to accomplish a plan of reconciliation for the world...

A curious mind speculates. I'd suggest that a great many things that you believe have been "inferred" from fragmentary evidence based on things you were told, but not necessarily based on solid fact. For all the "ideas" of Satan, or Lucifer-- that exist, there is very little actual knowledge to go on. Would you suggest that Satan's rebellion and this war in heaven caught God off guard--- or would you consider them a part of a plan of salvation for the world that Satan was cast down to?

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I don't know what is confusing about that-- What do you believe about "the war in heaven" supervike?

Do you have anything of your own to add to the conversation?

What do you mean 'my own'?

Snarky comments? Is that what you are after?

I like big epic good vs. evil stories. What's so hard to understand about that?

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There was war in heaven. Rev. 12 says the angel Michael and his angels fought with the dragon and his angels and the dragon lost. When did that happen? Since it is mentioned in Rev. 12 as the era Jesus was born and taught the woman (spiritual Israel - the true church) for 3 1/2 years, it seems that it happened in that time frame and while Jesus hung on the cross. For the sun turned black for 3 hrs. It couldn't have been an eclipse by the moon for at Passover the moon is on the opposite side of the earth, so it couldn't come between the earth and the sun and turned the earth black.

Lucifer thought with Jesus dying on the cross now was a good time to create a coup. He had already tried to kill Jesus when Jesus was an infant/toddler. That didn't work. Then Jesus said to the disciples that they would see angels ascending and descending UPON him. Upon is an act of aggression. That must have happened while Jesus was praying in the garden and sweating drops of blood, crying to the Father to take that cup from him.

Jesus came to die "to save His people from their sins." Jesus wasn't trying to back out of that. But these must have been angels of the devil trying to snuff out His life.

God bless.

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Supervike-- I'm asking if you have an opinion of "your own" about this war in heaven idea. Nothing snarky-- I was just wondering what you thought?

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I like these stories of epic good vs. epic evil.

I think they are a great allegory for people to model their real lives with. The idea of the great struggle, and all that.

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There was war in heaven. Rev. 12 says the angel Michael and his angels fought with the dragon and his angels and the dragon lost. When did that happen? Since it is mentioned in Rev. 12 as the era Jesus was born and taught the woman (spiritual Israel - the true church) for 3 1/2 years, it seems that it happened in that time frame and while Jesus hung on the cross. For the sun turned black for 3 hrs. It couldn't have been an eclipse by the moon for at Passover the moon is on the opposite side of the earth, so it couldn't come between the earth and the sun and turned the earth black.

Lucifer thought with Jesus dying on the cross now was a good time to create a coup. He had already tried to kill Jesus when Jesus was an infant/toddler. That didn't work. Then Jesus said to the disciples that they would see angels ascending and descending UPON him. Upon is an act of aggression. That must have happened while Jesus was praying in the garden and sweating drops of blood, crying to the Father to take that cup from him.

Jesus came to die "to save His people from their sins." Jesus wasn't trying to back out of that. But these must have been angels of the devil trying to snuff out His life.

God bless.

Interesting idea--- what are your thoughts concerning Satan being present in the garden, as a temptor for Adam and Eve? Wouldn't that predate the timeframe for the rebellion you suggest? --Also, in the book of Job, there is recorded a conversation between God and Lucifer where he (Satan) is said to have come from wandering the earth--- are you suggesting that this would have been pre-rebellion as well?

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I like these stories of epic good vs. epic evil.

I think they are a great allegory for people to model their real lives with. The idea of the great struggle, and all that.

Me too....

All the best epic adventures capture this grand struggle--- between good and evil, angels and demons, dark and light..... Star Wars, Lord of the Rings--- name the epic-- it's always an over-arching theme.

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Jack Skellington,

Cheap shot? No. Danielost has stated what he believes is biblical. Two other people asked where danielost had gotten this information and if he would show scripture references. Danielost replied "Everyone interprets thy bible for themselves, assuming they read it and don't rely on what others tell them."

Sounds like to me, if danielost can't back up what he is saying with scripture, then he wants people to rely on what he is saying...

Edited by Ogbin

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Apologies.... I must have missed the post where he stated a specific biblical source. --where was that post again?

One of the great things about these forums is that they bring people of very different backgrounds together and allow a chance to discuss things that perhaps in our daily lives we might not otherwise have. I don't ever find it particularly beneficial to anyone to trample on another's beliefs... particularly in a section of the forum where sharing one's beliefs is encouraged.

What are your particular thoughts on the war in heaven Ogbin? --Or are you just a resident fact-checker of some kind? (wink-- that was a cheap shot)

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Everyone interpets thy bible for themselves, assuming they read it and don't relie on what others tell them.

There are those who also rely on scholars' findings because they have access to ancient texts. Biblical experts have extensive training to get to the bottom of things; however, I'm not saying that they have the absolute answers. They have, however, the means to translate. Interpretation is another story. In short, it's only wise to keep an open mind when it comes to the narratives from antiquity with archaic foreign languages to boot. We are all in this together, looking for the truth, and that includes scholars, mystics, and people who have been touched by the "otherside," divine or otherwise.

War in heaven. Elaine Pagels wrote a fantastic book called Revelations: Visions, Prophecy, and Politics in the Book of Revelation. You may want to check it out.

Peace.

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Jack Skellington,

Cheap shot? No. Danielost has stated what he believes is biblical. Two other people asked where danielost had gotten this information and if he would show scripture references. Danielost replied "Everyone interprets thy bible for themselves, assuming they read it and don't rely on what others tell them."

Sounds like to me, if danielost can't back up what he is saying with scripture, then he wants people to rely on what he is saying...

No, the reference had already been given before I responded so I say no need to repeat it.

But, I will add to my op with this, every human was on the side of jesus and god in that war.

This thread was brought to you, because of all of you who ask why doesn't god step in and force us to be good. For wha ever evil befalls his children.

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I believe title also says 'beliefs' right there in the Spiritual Section.

Whats the point of having discussions boards that people aren't free to discuss what they believe?

The point is that this section of the forum was designed to avoid sceptical debate. Thus a thread like this can benefit from differing interpretations of the scriptures, but saying (and I paraphrase) "lol, I also enjoyed the one about Frodo and the Ring" is only likely to spark debate and thus is better stirred to the Spirituality vs scepticism section.

Unfortunately us moderators have been a bit lax in enforcing the distinction (and I'll admit, even sometimes exacerbating the problem by being drawn into such debates), but that is the intention of this forum. This section was created to allow meaningful discussion. For example, if someone starts a thread asking "what did Jesus mean when he said x, y, z", it's not unfair to say that some responses would simply be "who cares, Jesus never existed in the first place". Such a reply is totally inappropriate for this section but would be expected in the sceptics side of the forum. In this thread, simply dismissing the premise with "lol, it's fiction like LOTR" seems to be unnecessary.

Does that clarify things?

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It seems you can't have a meaningful discussion without the none believers. I expected a post where someone would relate or call it fiction. Always do, when I start such a thread in te religion board.

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